11 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Which we don't need. And does not actually add anything to the story. It detracts from story.

According to you. But I like the addition, I think it benefits the story by creating a contrast between the realms of science and mysticism and how they can touch but never mix. It's very much the same contrast that the Jedi demonstrate in the prequels, a group of humble monks situated in the largest technological metropolis in the galaxy. It's this meeting of the scientific and the fantastical that I think Star Wars does like no other series can.

29 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Which we don't need. And does not actually add anything to the story. It detracts from story.

Whether we "need" them or not is pretty much moot. They're canon, so...

However, the fact that strength in the Force does run in bloodlines does support the "need" for some " genetic " trait that can be passed down, and the Midichlorians do provide this.

I've found the easiest way to allow midis to remain in the universe, but remove the anti-mysticism hit they cause is to make the following two assumptions:

1) Qui-Gon Jinn didn't know what he was talking about when he blathered on about midichlorians letting someone talk to the Force; one of the reasons he's a bit of a maverick is because of his weird cultish beliefs.

2) Midichlorians are an indicator of Force potential, not a cause. Anakin wasn't strong in the Force because he had a high midichlorian count - he had a high midichlorian count because he was strong in the Force, and the things are attracted to high levels of Force energy.

With those two assumptions, the arguments over midichlorians really become moot. They can stay in the story, but essentially become irrelevant.

The crux of this argument is going to lie in how they describe the Balance of the Force. If balance turns out to be this moral relativistic approach of just be a normal person then that is the doom of the lore. If it is something else then it may be a different story. It could also be that Luke is just butt hurt right now, and that's why he wants to have the Jedi end. Luke seems to be refusing the call a second time, and if so, then a return to the Hero's Journey could be the pieces that we are seeing. Not Luke becoming watered-down. Mark Hamill was unhappy with the direction that the script took in TLJ, but he also thought Boba Fett was going to be his Mom lol.

I have a feeling that Rey is something different, but if they are smart they will Never explain exactly what she is beyond some oblique references to balance in the force. She can be an anomaly that is not understood and to me that would be the best solution. Over-explaining is the doom of the prequels. The wiki nerds won't like it if they point to some ethereal quality for why she is what she is, but it would be consistent with the original movies if she was more about the way she makes the audience feel, rather than what Hulk vs. Thor details she provides.

5 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Which we don't need. And does not actually add anything to the story. It detracts from story.

Agree 100% I think George was guilty of overplaying his hand there. He wanted to show that Anakin was going to be a powerful Force user, but rather than having Qui Gon have a vision about it or feel the strength in the kid (or even better just letting it play out in the next movies), he had to add a terrible piece of exposition that undid a lot of his good work. If he would have just contained himself a lot of heartbreak could have been avoided. There were literally people crying when they realized that the force was being described that way because they felt it had taken away the mystique of the Force.

1 hour ago, Archlyte said:

Agree 100% I think George was guilty of overplaying his hand there. He wanted to show that Anakin was going to be a powerful Force user, but rather than having Qui Gon have a vision about it or feel the strength in the kid (or even better just letting it play out in the next movies), he had to add a terrible piece of exposition that undid a lot of his good work. If he would have just contained himself a lot of heartbreak could have been avoided. There were literally people crying when they realized that the force was being described that way because they felt it had taken away the mystique of the Force.

He'd already shown how a Force-user could recognise it in someone else: "The Force is strong in this one."

No need for misspelled mitochondria!

8 minutes ago, Daronil said:

He'd already shown how a Force-user could recognise it in someone else: "The Force is strong in this one."

No need for misspelled mitochondria!

Oh man that's funny. I never thought of that. And yeah I agree, it didn't need to have a score. /facepalm

On 13/09/2017 at 11:50 AM, Nivrap said:

Anakin is only an analogue to Jesus in that he had a virgin birth, but that doesn't define his character (unlike Neo from The Matrix). I would like to know what you think is so bad about midichlorians, seeing as they're not the Force and merely allow sentient beings to wield the Force.

Qui-Gon is incredibly important, not only as a role model to define young Anakin's ideals for what a Jedi should be, but also as a mentor to Obi-Wan, showing him that the Council isn't always right. Not to mention, he showed Yoda how to become one with the Force.

The duality of the Force is not set-in-stone as you seem to think. Just because the original three films happened to come first doesn't mean they are the only films worth consideration when it comes to Star Wars lore. If you feel personally insulted when the Jedi are insulted, that's not the writers' fault.

To be fair there was this mention of "this chosen one designed to bring balance to the force." A pholospy that was brought up but never really explained in any great detail nor was a fact of any importance aside from an indication to episode 6. To be honest, it was that that took it too far for me, not midocholorians. There's overshadowing, then there's "this kid will balance the force, even though we are 99.9% certain all the sith are dead at this point." "Only two are the sith" is also needless compulsion; basically the Jedi in that particular scene was sprouting off rubbish that only made sense in the context of the OT, but was character knowledge they shouldn't have had.

Besides, personally given that the Jedi are meant to be the ultimate authority on all things force in this setting I would argue it would have been a greater disappointment if they hadn't at least attempted to discover signs of force significance or attempted to study the link between the force and they; given the force is ultimately an object with no material form one can only observe it's effect on reality. As an actual scientist in biology, I see nothing wrong with midacholorians, because their presence is just an indicator; not an enabler of the force and as a scientist I would have done the same thing; looked for indicators.

"But that means being a Jedi is only limited to a few!"

Aside from Luke and Leia and those already trained in the force; who manifested abilties? No one really. I am of the impression that though force potential can be inherited, people either are selected to be great or not; you either feel the force or you never will. Most people never demostrated the capability and Leia, despite being Luke's sister never went on to develop her powers. She wasn't even sensed to have it really; Vader never addressed her personally as such and only found out after he pulled the information from Luke's mind. the only feat I can attribute to her would have been receiving Lukes call for help; something that might have been more to do with their emotional connection then her potential. So even within the family line; people being great or not is more to do with their destiny then it is to do with linage. Likewise, even some people who can't feel the force are destined for great things. Han Solo was exactly the kind of man who could survive anything until his time.

On ‎9‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 3:50 AM, Nivrap said:

Anakin is only an analogue to Jesus in that he had a virgin birth, but that doesn't define his character (unlike Neo from The Matrix). I would like to know what you think is so bad about midichlorians, seeing as they're not the Force and merely allow sentient beings to wield the Force.

Qui-Gon is incredibly important, not only as a role model to define young Anakin's ideals for what a Jedi should be, but also as a mentor to Obi-Wan, showing him that the Council isn't always right. Not to mention, he showed Yoda how to become one with the Force.

The duality of the Force is not set-in-stone as you seem to think. Just because the original three films happened to come first doesn't mean they are the only films worth consideration when it comes to Star Wars lore. If you feel personally insulted when the Jedi are insulted, that's not the writers' fault.

I somehow missed this post Nivrap so I apologize if it appeared that I didn't answer you. The midichloriens are not a stupid concept, they are just very very bad for this particular setting in my opinion. In quantifying magic George made some stuff way too specific. Leaving aside that fact that it looks to me like the midichloriens were a ham handed attempt to be able to hold up a ruler to Yoda and Anakin in some very unnecessary exposition. I liked the Qui Gon character, but to me he still wasn't necessary. They could have done all that stuff with Obi wan and it would have been that much worse when he strikes Anakin down in Ep III. That would require deleting the part where the jedi council says no to training Anakin, which would also have been good because that seemed to do nothing good either. And I am missing something but why wouldn't it have been better for Yoda to figure out in his long life and mastery of the Force how to become one with the Force? Qui gon is the source of that for no good reason.

I'm not so much insulted as dismayed. The first three films gave us the setting, and established the Force as having a duality. I watch the prequels from time to time, and though it's painful in some parts, I like them well enough to watch them as they are Star Wars. You may end up being on correct side of this argument if they change the nature of the Force in the new films.

One of the things that struck me about Bendu was that he was withdrawn from contact with others and that his anger was unleashed when his solitude was threatened (unlike Yoda and Obi-Wan who were in hiding). I think the gray force user accepts that the duality of the force can be balanced if one is not tempted to act at all. Philosophically he seemed to encourage Kanan to embrace a notion of predestination and coincidence- as in a philosophy of your choices do not matter...which could ultimately have led him to encourage Kanan to remove himself from the temptation to choose at all.

I suspect Bendu gained conflict for giving into his loneliness and revealing himself to Kanan in the first place.

So sure, play a gray Jedi, embrace the philosophy as seen in the show...then roll up a new character so you can actually do something in the game we're playing

That Bendu goes on an indiscriminate killing spree when angered pretty much disqualifies him from being a moral authority, IMO. He kills both Rebels and Imperials during his rampage.

Calling that gray or balanced makes me raise an eyebrow at what you'd need to do to be considered dark.

I think all his talk about balance was just a smokescreen for being a selfish, murderous *******.

Having read through a lot of the comments, I thought I might put in my two cents worth.

First, and foremost, a lot of the issues people mention are related to "Jedi with Force Lightning" as the main motivator. But I don't honestly think that has anythIing to do with the interest in the Gray Jedi. Justifications for naming Qui-Gon or other canon characters as being "Gray" is more about their being more flexible about how to be Jedi than the code is...a code that has been changed at least once in universe, and is shown in the prequels to be nearly impossible for its adherents to truly embody. Much of the serious discussion seems to be much more about a way to serve the Force that isn't as inflexible as the Jedi Oath. You can call on the Dark Side for the very same things one can call on the Light Side for...it's all about the emotions and decisions behind the use of power.

Yes, Star Wars is rooted in duality. But it's also never shied away from showing that there are plenty of shades of grey in the universe, either. The Prequels, which sprang from Lucas's vision, demonstrate all of that very clearly...especially the ineffectual bureaucratic nature of the Jedi Order. The Jedi Council might consider a Jedi who doesn't keep in step with the Code to be Gray, even if they never use Harm or Unleash or anything like that.

I think this game system is actually really well suited to handle people who live in between the Light and Dark sides, and who might strive for the Light but still fall into Darkness. At the end of the day, dismissing it as video game/power gaming is, to me, more an indictment of the writer than the Grey Jedi concept.

Finally, there's a lot of complaint saying that this sort of change would make the Jedi Order to date seem like chumps, which I think is overly precious and cynical. In history, people thought one thing only to have it turned on its ear years/decades/centuries later. But more importantly, a lot of the complaints are based on extrapolation of a movie that hasn't even been released yet. Grey Jedi are simply an idea floating around...which means it firmly exists in the "Take it or leave it" category. Getting bent out of shape over it is a choice, and one that many people are taking a bit too personally.

For the record, I'm undecided on the concept. It's interesting from a storytelling perspective, but undeveloped in relation to much of what exists. Does that make in incompatible? No. All of this is made up, but its entrenched by decades of fandom. A lot of that is very broadly defined, save for when people choose to adhere to EU material...which is about as valid as the Grey Jedi themselves.

Anyhow, that's my two cents in all it's rambling glory.

Its just a desire on the part of many fans to see more nuance in the Jedi.

This became especially pronounced after early WEG product presented a "fundamentalist interpretation" of canonical Jedi and a code made for beatified pacifists rather than mystic space samurai. They are Jedi Knights . Jedi are mystic-warrior-philosophers, not hippie-dippy space pacifists. It was a bit too pat and too black and white and too restrictive to work in play. It wasn't even a good interpretation of the source material, IMO. I love the old WEG materials, but they completely missed the chanbara and space opera source material George slapped his pseudo-bhuddist gloss on top of and decided Luke's decisions were the only possible decision any Jedi could make irrespective of circumstance. A lot of the early Legends material was intimately bound up with the early gaming supplements. As I understand it, some of the writers even used WEG books as reference material. In my opinion, the Gray Jedi trope is carried too far as well, but I do understand a desire for a more "mature" interpretation of the source material (e.g., the movies). I was five when ANH came out. What makes sense to a 5 year old does not necessarily make sense to a 45 year old.

I think the FAD rules "get it right." Its all narrative and there is room for some interpretation in the mechanics.

That's all anyone at any given table needs.

On ‎9‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 0:37 PM, FinarinPanjoro said:

One of the things that struck me about Bendu was that he was withdrawn from contact with others and that his anger was unleashed when his solitude was threatened (unlike Yoda and Obi-Wan who were in hiding). I think the gray force user accepts that the duality of the force can be balanced if one is not tempted to act at all. Philosophically he seemed to encourage Kanan to embrace a notion of predestination and coincidence- as in a philosophy of your choices do not matter...which could ultimately have led him to encourage Kanan to remove himself from the temptation to choose at all.

I suspect Bendu gained conflict for giving into his loneliness and revealing himself to Kanan in the first place.

So sure, play a gray Jedi, embrace the philosophy as seen in the show...then roll up a new character so you can actually do something in the game we're playing

Now see this is interesting. I can see a character who does recognize the duality, but is also affected profoundly by the destiny concept, a sort of detached attitude that comes from understanding that the Force has a will, and that things often happen in a way that is disconnected from the individual and their emotional oscillations. Bendu says something like "you are like a storm in my calm world," which could mean that he is really just trying to isolate and make as few ripples in the pond as possible while essentially watching and then joining the Force. Isn't the term for the balance Bendu? Is that creature basically having to anthropomorphize himself to be able to converse with a human, or is he a creature who views his whole personality as being the Force? To me that would explain a lot, and it would make him basically removed from life as the other characters know it. I guess you could be truly Gray if you were basically a secluded mystic who spends their time attuning, observing, and communing wit the Force. Once you are engaging in life and its conflicts, you can't be Gray really.

On ‎9‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 4:27 PM, Stan Fresh said:

That Bendu goes on an indiscriminate killing spree when angered pretty much disqualifies him from being a moral authority, IMO. He kills both Rebels and Imperials during his rampage.

Calling that gray or balanced makes me raise an eyebrow at what you'd need to do to be considered dark.

I think all his talk about balance was just a smokescreen for being a selfish, murderous *******.

See that to me is like nature, he is neither good nor evil in his response to his mind because he is just reacting to the situation, but to the Force he will be judged for his actions. This would be like the view of nature being neutral in the Force but still representing the Force as it connects all things. I think this is very different from Have your Cake and Eat it too, which is the "I don't care about the Force's view of me" defense.

On ‎9‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 8:17 PM, CGJackson said:

Having read through a lot of the comments, I thought I might put in my two cents worth.

First, and foremost, a lot of the issues people mention are related to "Jedi with Force Lightning" as the main motivator. But I don't honestly think that has anythIing to do with the interest in the Gray Jedi. Justifications for naming Qui-Gon or other canon characters as being "Gray" is more about their being more flexible about how to be Jedi than the code is...a code that has been changed at least once in universe, and is shown in the prequels to be nearly impossible for its adherents to truly embody. Much of the serious discussion seems to be much more about a way to serve the Force that isn't as inflexible as the Jedi Oath. You can call on the Dark Side for the very same things one can call on the Light Side for...it's all about the emotions and decisions behind the use of power.

Yes, Star Wars is rooted in duality. But it's also never shied away from showing that there are plenty of shades of grey in the universe, either. The Prequels, which sprang from Lucas's vision, demonstrate all of that very clearly...especially the ineffectual bureaucratic nature of the Jedi Order. The Jedi Council might consider a Jedi who doesn't keep in step with the Code to be Gray, even if they never use Harm or Unleash or anything like that.

I think this game system is actually really well suited to handle people who live in between the Light and Dark sides, and who might strive for the Light but still fall into Darkness. At the end of the day, dismissing it as video game/power gaming is, to me, more an indictment of the writer than the Grey Jedi concept.

Finally, there's a lot of complaint saying that this sort of change would make the Jedi Order to date seem like chumps, which I think is overly precious and cynical. In history, people thought one thing only to have it turned on its ear years/decades/centuries later. But more importantly, a lot of the complaints are based on extrapolation of a movie that hasn't even been released yet. Grey Jedi are simply an idea floating around...which means it firmly exists in the "Take it or leave it" category. Getting bent out of shape over it is a choice, and one that many people are taking a bit too personally.

For the record, I'm undecided on the concept. It's interesting from a storytelling perspective, but undeveloped in relation to much of what exists. Does that make in incompatible? No. All of this is made up, but its entrenched by decades of fandom. A lot of that is very broadly defined, save for when people choose to adhere to EU material...which is about as valid as the Grey Jedi themselves.

Anyhow, that's my two cents in all it's rambling glory.

First off, thank you for posting, I did find your comments to be thought provoking and real. I don't know man, 20,000 years of meditation should yield some ability to at least gauge how the Force acts if not why it does so. My belief is that the people who advocate for the Gray Jedi power surplus through being edgy did not stop to think about the larger implications of their assertion. They simply want to be able to be a normal person but with Jedi powers.

I get why, I'm not going to pretend that I didn't find the Jedi hard to relate to in the prequels, but the prequels are just not the same as the original trilogy, and to me I think George, though I love him, was not firing on all thrusters when he wrote them. All of that exposition, a lot of Earthopomorphization (making up words here), and dialogue that was actually painful to experience. Episode 2 was finished only weeks before principle photography started, and it had to be cleaned up by someone else before they could shoot it. The prequels were also not originally supposed to run as the first part of the story so much as a back story for the Anakin character and a few other things. I think when you watch those movies you can clearly see the agenda in the story he had and also see how it was not executed in ways that he had executed them in the original movies. You can see that to him the Jedi had to be compromised, that Anakin had to undergo his transformation, that the audience had to be able to stay with Anakin and Obi-wan but that the backdrop for them (the Jedi) had to be suborned in order to bring their conflict to its close and to usher in the Empire.

So because the Jedi had to be shown in that light for the prequels to work as he saw it (as opposed to if someone could have helped him edit and rewrite), the Gray Jedi crowd is striking while there is blood in the water. The Jedi have committed the sin of being in-relatable by the average person, which means that the Force has to change. We have to make it so that people can see their sometimes bad decisions as still being ok with the Force, that you won't lose your Paladin abilities if you do something evil as long as it is cool looking or badass.

On 8/31/2017 at 8:45 AM, KungFuFerret said:

plus I'll make sure all these droid ships don't shoot you despite you having zero space combat training.

Oh please - that was R2 going "Jesus H Christ, if I let this kid have the controls, he's gonna get us BOTH killed. Fine - I'll light up the board so it looks like he's doing the flying and I'll keep my hands on the stick . . . ."

And then Annie calls out all his attacks like "I'll try spinning!" allowing R2 to maintain the illusion that the 9 year old fleshing is really in control.

52 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

First off, thank you for posting, I did find your comments to be thought provoking and real. I don't know man, 20,000 years of meditation should yield some ability to at least gauge how the Force acts if not why it does so. My belief is that the people who advocate for the Gray Jedi power surplus through being edgy did not stop to think about the larger implications of their assertion. They simply want to be able to be a normal person but with Jedi powers.

I get why, I'm not going to pretend that I didn't find the Jedi hard to relate to in the prequels, but the prequels are just not the same as the original trilogy, and to me I think George, though I love him, was not firing on all thrusters when he wrote them. All of that exposition, a lot of Earthopomorphization (making up words here), and dialogue that was actually painful to experience. Episode 2 was finished only weeks before principle photography started, and it had to be cleaned up by someone else before they could shoot it. The prequels were also not originally supposed to run as the first part of the story so much as a back story for the Anakin character and a few other things. I think when you watch those movies you can clearly see the agenda in the story he had and also see how it was not executed in ways that he had executed them in the original movies. You can see that to him the Jedi had to be compromised, that Anakin had to undergo his transformation, that the audience had to be able to stay with Anakin and Obi-wan but that the backdrop for them (the Jedi) had to be suborned in order to bring their conflict to its close and to usher in the Empire.

So because the Jedi had to be shown in that light for the prequels to work as he saw it (as opposed to if someone could have helped him edit and rewrite), the Gray Jedi crowd is striking while there is blood in the water. The Jedi have committed the sin of being in-relatable by the average person, which means that the Force has to change. We have to make it so that people can see their sometimes bad decisions as still being ok with the Force, that you won't lose your Paladin abilities if you do something evil as long as it is cool looking or badass.

Here is my question. Who actually came up with the Jedi Code anyway? I know it was given the Lucas seal of approval at some point, but wasn't it just basically cooked up by someone else YEARS later, to retcon some creed into something that really didn't have that much development originally?

I mean, it just feels to me like it was some fan fiction crap that someone put up, and like all the other EU stuff at the time, people were like "Meh, sure whatever." and just let it slide. And now it's become this huge splinter in the paw (or the mind's eye) of the franchise, when it really might not have been anything that Lucas really saw reflected in the actual Order?

Because I would find it incredibly funny that decades worth of fanboys are heaping scorn and vitriol at the feet of Lucas, if it wasn't something he even came up with.

I know he loosely based it on some Eastern philosophies of Taoism and Buddhism and the like, but that's a lot different from a specific, codified list of official rules, that are open to interpretation (as evidenced by this very thread debate).

25 minutes ago, Desslok said:

Oh please - that was R2 going "Jesus H Christ, if I let this kid have the controls, he's gonna get us BOTH killed. Fine - I'll light up the board so it looks like he's doing the flying and I'll keep my hands on the stick . . . ."

And then Annie calls out all his attacks like "I'll try spinning!" allowing R2 to maintain the illusion that the 9 year old fleshing is really in control.

Heh, as funny as that is, and I'm sure R2 was helping him a good bit, it's still heavily implied that Anakin did a lot of that. And while I don't like turning to outside material to support an opinion, I do recall a friend who had read the canon novelization, stating that Anakin clearly had agency in that fight, and it wasn't just R2 humoring him.

I mean, he already was an insanely good pod racer, it's not like he didn't have a concept of spatial mechanics and physics enough to justify him being a good pilot.

Just now, KungFuFerret said:

Here is my question. Who actually came up with the Jedi Code anyway? I know it was given the Lucas seal of approval at some point, but wasn't it just basically cooked up by someone else YEARS later, to retcon some creed into something that really didn't have that much development originally?

I mean, it just feels to me like it was some fan fiction crap that someone put up, and like all the other EU stuff at the time, people were like "Meh, sure whatever." and just let it slide. And now it's become this huge splinter in the paw (or the mind's eye) of the franchise, when it really might not have been anything that Lucas really saw reflected in the actual Order?

Because I would find it incredibly funny that decades worth of fanboys are heaping scorn and vitriol at the feet of Lucas, if it wasn't something he even came up with.

I know he loosely based it on some Eastern philosophies of Taoism and Buddhism and the like, but that's a lot different from a specific, codified list of official rules, that are open to interpretation (as evidenced by this very thread debate).

Heh, as funny as that is, and I'm sure R2 was helping him a good bit, it's still heavily implied that Anakin did a lot of that. And while I don't like turning to outside material to support an opinion, I do recall a friend who had read the canon novelization, stating that Anakin clearly had agency in that fight, and it wasn't just R2 humoring him.

I mean, he already was an insanely good pod racer, it's not like he didn't have a concept of spatial mechanics and physics enough to justify him being a good pilot.

Yeah Ferret I know what you mean, and is the Jedi code even as old as the Sith code? I was aware that some pulp writer had concocted the bad guy code before I was aware of the Jedi code. I think that this is a delicate subject because people have different views of the Force. My take on this is based on my view of Star Wars, but I know that my view is peculiar in some ways when compared to the average consumer of all the EU material, the previous versions of RPGs and also video games (I am still confused at the level of power in Force Unleashed, kind of reminds me of a What If comic).

The meh comment made me laugh, because I think that is exactly what George was doing at that time. I feel like he was tired of Star Wars, and was trying to do other things. If he did write it I would be astonished, because to me it reminds me of nothing else he did with those original works. The guy who prided himself o being able to tell stories without dialogue would have strayed far if he had been codifying trivial details of his story tools. I just don't think that was George.

I suspect that someone came up with the Sith Code first, and then it got reversed. I could be wrong. The desire to create the form of the bad guys in such detail never really made much sense to me. To me they are far more effective if they are mysterious and somewhat incomprehensible. Rules for Bad Guys first printing, Korriban Press 1207 BGC (Bad guy calendar)

The Jedi Code precedes the Sith Code by several years. The Sith Code was introduced in the game Knights of the Old Republic . The Jedi Code (both versions) dates back to the WEG D6 first Edition, where it made its first appearance.

18 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The Jedi Code precedes the Sith Code by several years. The Sith Code was introduced in the game Knights of the Old Republic . The Jedi Code (both versions) dates back to the WEG D6 first Edition, where it made its first appearance.

Ah ok thank you TG, your amazing knowledge of this stuff is very impressive. I am glad it actually was that way instead of what I had feared. WEG is the bible, I guess I should have bought more of those books back in the day lol.

8 hours ago, Archlyte said:

Ah ok thank you TG, your amazing knowledge of this stuff is very impressive. I am glad it actually was that way instead of what I had feared. WEG is the bible, I guess I should have bought more of those books back in the day lol.

WEG was the Bible for a very long time. They had to make pretty much everything up. As there was really nothing. And they came up with a LOT of good stuff. For example they created the Inquisitorious. And Dave Feloni made them canon.

Just now, Daeglan said:

WEG was the Bible for a very long time. They had to make pretty much everything up. As there was really nothing. And they came up with a LOT of good stuff. For example they created the Inquisitorious. And Dave Feloni made them canon.

Pablo Hidalgo was a contributor who wrote some of their books I think too.

I think so...

LAST JEDI PLOT DISCUSSION AHEAD

As the movie draws closer the pro-Gray Jedi rambling is rampant on YouTube. In the past such things are usually wildly inaccurate, but it seems like some people, especially EU fans, are really invested in this idea of the Jedi who can do what he wants and to **** with the whole light side/dark side thing. What makes this worse is that the movie is being hyped as "controversial," and one industry group that got a view of an early version has said it will, "divide the fanbase." I don't care what the source of that may be, that doesn't sound good.

I feel like they may do something crazy like make it so that Luke has basically decided to not be a Jedi and he is just trying to sulk and pack it in on his little island, or maybe he has lost his marbles and that is why he looks like he just stopped pushing his shopping cart full of his clothes a moment before Rey tries to hand him that lightsaber. While Mark Hamill has demonstrated some bad ideas about his character in the past (Boba Fett revealed to be his Mom, etc.), he has demonstrated a lot of surprise and at first shock at what the script says about his character. To me this means that it wasn't something he expected (or this is all misdirection by Disney) for his character. What was probably expected is any of the outcomes the various pulp sources have done with Luke over the years: Luke becomes Hogwarts Headmaster, Luke Gets Married, Luke Falls to the Dark Side and is redeemed (because F the movies I guess), or Luke becomes an Obi-Wan type figure as was suggested in interviews early in the 80's.

A drastic departure from those more probable trajectories means quite probably something dumb unfortunately. It's possible that Rian Johnson is such a genius that he saw something that no one else did in that sea of possibilities, but I imagine it's more likely that he saw something that many of us rejected as a bad idea, and he decided he would try to hot rod the idea into his new script. He's seen JJ bring a script that is a copy of episode IV, he has the Act II where everything is supposed to fall apart, and he wants to take advantage of the biggest opportunity he is likely to ever get to change the face of Planet Earth. He can destroy Luke Skywalker as we knew him .

I fear that this will be the Revenge of the Movies, the canon monster coming out to destroy all that was before it because it can. I hope I am wrong, and Luke stays the hero of my childhood (I was one of the kids who always liked Luke better than Han, Darth Vader, or Boba Fett) rather than be some despicable character who is just there to make Rey look good. I can see them doing that as while I like Rey, I hope that they don't have to prop her up by diminishing or otherwise making a huge jerk out of Luke. If Luke turns out to be the Bendu of this next movie I for one will feel that the writing has gone to suckville. They will have thrown out the duality of the Force, the epic nature of Luke's desire to do good in the galaxy, and just gone with something that was convenient. Luke is neutral now so it's up to Rey to save the galaxy, because Luke has decided to count Porgs and be emo about the past. "Everything I do causes suffering to those around me." Oh please no.