I take the mindset of the Jedi by their original concept of the ideal of a samurai, its virtues and a lot of zen philosophy.

I take the Sith mindset as the hunger for power of corporations and governments that Lucas tried to criticize in the form of Vader and the Emperor: a person who sold his humanity to a patriarchal authority whose hunger for power is never enough...

But the light and dark side of the force has nothing to do with jedi/sith dogmas: both are ways of dealing with the force, opposite ones, both sides of the same coin, and both refer always to emotional states.

I interpret emotional states as vibrations, as an exponential curve. Low and dense emotions (fear, wrath, hate, anger, vanity, apathy, malice, jealously...) resonate with the dark side, while higher (vibrational speaking) emotions resonate with the light side (compassion, courage, honesty, self-steem, benevolence, love...). Some powers resonate with the dark side and others with the light side. This means that to use a dark side power you have to lower your vibration to use it, and so is easier to begin to be clouded by lower emotions too. Mechanically speaking, using dark side pips to fuel force powers is to "vibrate low". Also, using a power in a low emotional state, you also begin to vibrate "low". And force sensitive beings are more exposed than others to this vibrations.

Is like a glass full of clean water and you begin to put oil in it. Jedi try to keep it clean. Sith not only doesn't care, but the dirtier it is, the better, more fuel for their dark powers.

Gray Jedi...? It remembers me more of a Jedi Sentinel doing the dirty work and, without a strong mind, a Grey Jedi will eventually fall if he abuses his dark powers and the rate that he dirts its water is higher than the rate he cleans it.

Ahsoka Tano? I don't see her as a gray jedi. She labels herself as no Jedi, because beign a Jedi also implies beign part of a structured organitation with an agenda, organitation that betrayed her and with which she feels that not belongs to (like "hey, I believe in God, but I want to know nothing about your Catholic/Protestant/Orthodox/Evangelist Church. I will follow my own way and my own beliefs"). But at her core, she tries to follow the light side. Take notice that she does not justify nor negates her anger when confronted with Vader: she assumes it, she knows herself, and is this knowledge that keeps her water as clean as possible. Is the negation of the anger or submiting to it and begin to project the anger on others and fuel it that leads to the dark side.

I see the Witcher Geralt of Rivia more grey jedi than Ahsoka.

30 minutes ago, hikari_dourden said:

I take the Sith mindset as the hunger for power of corporations and governments that Lucas tried to criticize in the form of Vader and the Emperor: a person who sold his humanity to a patriarchal authority whose hunger for power is never enough...

No. The Sith hunger for personal power, in order to be free to make their own choices without worry of others holding them back. For some that might mean using a corporate or governmental entity as a tool, but the Sith as a whole don't value such tools for their own sake. Their thirst for power is very personal, and no two Sith will pursue it in exactly the same way.

On 02/09/2017 at 9:26 PM, Archlyte said:

I really like your characterization of Dark Side characters. Are you saying that you character is trending toward the dark side because of his obsession? Because that makes sense to me. Just wondering because you posted on this thread which is about Gray Jedi, but to me just sounds like your character has a struggle going on that is interesting. Ignorance to the fact that he is causing damage is no armor against consequences though I think. And the Force will react to the character accordingly. If the Obsession behavior is destructive and convenient, then the intent doesn't matter, it is dark side stuff imo.

Aye, Tobin Stryder, prior to becoming "aware" of his force sensitivity was obsessed with getting revenge on his fathers killer; a Imperial favoured bounty hunter that was once a close family friend. Obtaining the sith saber basically enhanced that obsessive focus, turning that "once I meet him I will kill him" into "Alright, since I'm getting absolutely nowhere near my agenda with my party or this alliance, I am going to get a friend to rat me out to the bounty board, plan and execute a raid on Kaltho's vault to steal the jewel of yavin a 3rd time via an complicated but very explosive method, and I will hunt him down tomorrow. I do not care how much of a sith storm this causes or how many bounty hunters will come after me in the meantime, nothing will get between me and that bar steward. I will have my revenge."

Basically, it goes far beyond being a curiosity or a goal when he embraces his obsession weakness but rather it becomes everything he has to live for in that he doesn't care about how many people or resources he must sacrifice; he must achieve that outcome. Failure or negligence is unacceptable. It's during those moments that the outlaw called Tobin Stryder becomes most attuned to his inner darkness or to use the example above, rejects harmony in favour for the discordance that suits him

Another great example was in one of the adventures, advert your eyes please!

In the under manned ship building colony that was only defended by miners and precisely 13 mandolorian warriors, the alliance party was completely spilt on whether to seek help from the Zygerian slave circuit. Most of the party wanted nothing to do with the zygerians despite the major shortage of manpower either due to belief (We have enough right here between the droid fighters and our elites) alliance principles or having been captured by them before (we had one mandolorian that had almost been sold into slavery who absolutely hated zygerians.). Tobin disagreed and saw the potential for the entire squad and colony to be wiped out, and had previously lost a colony of people to the parties negligence (though it was mostly a different group of people at that point), but was outvoted diplomatically and was asked to do things their way. Those that had voted him down were either lightside paragons or heavily assoicated with the alliance's stance of no slaves.

But Tobin wasn't about to let this happen again , he had seen it happen before and he wasn't about to let another colony get wiped out on his watch so he decided to do absolutely everything else the party would not do. He took his personal ship with one other crew member that agreed with him, went to zygeria and, by turning in the King's Sword* gained 400 strong slave army and turned up two hours before the empire was due to arrive. The party was completely furious at his precieved betrayal, especially the mando who had almost a slave (especially as there was several mandolorians with explosive collars assigned to him). But in his obsession to achieve the perfect outcome and not let a community fall into ruin he was going to betray even his own principles to make sure they saw tomorrow. He had alienated himself and put 400 enslaved soldiers into the most brutal battle imaginable just to buy time for the alliance fleet to arrive. By the end of the battle Tobin Stryder had fallen into disharmony, having gone from about 90 morality right down to the high 50's from the gigantic loss in life (only 60 of that army survived, the zygerian handlers was mostly intact) that the slave army experienced and those dark deals he had made in which to get them.

Yet even then he maintained he was right; in that battle the mandolorian had died fighting up to 30 stormtroopers at once and sacrificed his life to buy time on the retreat and maintained that things would have been much worse had he not followed his initiative, labelling the paragons as "people that seek enlightenment through sheer ignorance. You want to find the Jedi way? Go and prey in a ruined temple, it was precisely because people like you didn't interact with the galaxy so that when your star's started disappearing from the night's sky, no one gave **** you were gone." In his obsession he had dismissed everything, including the squad's feelings on the matter in favour of achieving that end goal. A truly obsessed character should frequently chase their own agenda, but never to the extent that it compromises fun around the table.

The driving factor behind Tobin's obsessions is that, more often then not he's looking to create perfect condictions to crush the empire with; due to his difficult life as a third class citizen he is essentially a rebel fanatic, he is an intelligence 5 force emergent who is in a desperate hurry to destroy the inquisition and the empire so his son can live a happy life in the future. He doesn't care for enlightenment or balance because he hasn't forgiven himself for the things he has done and will do to continue winning the battles. If anything, he likely cares way too much about doing the right think and is trying too hard and it is that relentless drive that is bringing him down into some pretty dark places. Like the greek heroes he is inviting great tragedy upon himself and boy is it delicious.



*Of course this lead to another awesome adventure that would be heavily off topic to describe.

1 hour ago, HappyDaze said:

No. The Sith hunger for personal power, in order to be free to make their own choices without worry of others holding them back. For some that might mean using a corporate or governmental entity as a tool, but the Sith as a whole don't value such tools for their own sake. Their thirst for power is very personal, and no two Sith will pursue it in exactly the same way.

What I meant is the mindset of certain types of gobernments and corporations, not the goberments or corporations per se, that Lucas tryed to reflect in the original trilogy. The mindset of "domination of others through the use of fear and lies", to be feared and do as one pleases. The problem is that that kind of "personal power" is fed by the darkside (fear, anger, hate, suffering...), and is easy to mistake aggression, intimidation or a complete lack of empathy with strength.

The problem is that the more they dive in that dark waters, the more they are drawn into the deep, as a black hole, until all trace of their humanity (or call it empathy or sanity) dissapears.

This is the reason why I say that a gray jedi that plays too much with the dark side eventually falls, like a ship graviting near a black hole. He has not to be converted into a Sith (the Nightsisters are terrible darkside users and they are no Sith), but he eventually falls unless, as I said, it has a strong and self-honest mind and only uses aggression on very specific situations, like Bendu.

And this is the reason why I think that Ahsoka is no grey jedi. She is not jedi (nor grey, nor true, nor dark). She has her own beliefs and phylosophy. She is something else that strives for the light side.

The fact is that also videogames have encouraged that one can use Force Lighning and other powers fueled by the dark side without consequences.

The real darkside would say "yesss, keep believing you're doing good, yesss, keep using my powers...".

Is like toying with powers not meant for men in a Cthulhu setting: with time, your sanity breaks. Mmm... I think is easier to see the darkside this way, as Cthulhu tempting you to use his powers and drive you slowly insane to be one of his minions...

But well, I don't buy the concept of gray jedi for the reasons I writed earlier. I see it as a trick, as a lie of the darkside. But if with Gray Jedi they mean political neutral jedi, as a kind of "Sweeden Jedi"... well... mmm... neither XDD

8 hours ago, hikari_dourden said:

The fact is that also videogames have encouraged that one can use Force Lighning and other powers fueled by the dark side without consequences.

The real darkside would say "yesss, keep believing you're doing good, yesss, keep using my powers...".

Is like toying with powers not meant for men in a Cthulhu setting: with time, your sanity breaks. Mmm... I think is easier to see the darkside this way, as Cthulhu tempting you to use his powers and drive you slowly insane to be one of his minions...

But well, I don't buy the concept of gray jedi for the reasons I writed earlier. I see it as a trick, as a lie of the darkside. But if with Gray Jedi they mean political neutral jedi, as a kind of "Sweeden Jedi"... well... mmm... neither XDD

Again, force powers=/=Wu Wei, the video games were the worst offenders of this. In the realm of the Ashla, Bogan, and Bendu, we need to consider the whole point of wielding the Force - to be in harmony with it, or Wu Wei.

The Jedi wield the Ashla, the Light Side, through their dogma of stoicism. This means that they seek to move in harmony with the Force through logic, reason, and service of others. Their idea of Wu Wei is to further the natural flow of the Force through idea of wisdom and self-control. They seek to acknowledge their passions (anguish, rage and suffering) but deny the impulse to act upon them, instead accepting a rational logic for inner peace. In essence, they seek to act in harmony by seeing the Force reflected in the people and things around them, and so their logic is bound by viewing those things for result.

The Sith wield the Bogan, the Dark Side, through their reversal of stoicism. This means that they seek to only harmony within themselves instead of with the external nature of the Force, which fuels their own desires. Their idea is that Wu Wei is slavery to an outside force and instead seek to satisfy their own happiness through the satisfaction of their own passions. By feeding the impulse to act upon resolving their passions (anguish, rage or suffering) they seek to remove them from themselves entirely. The seek to act in harmony by feeling the Force in themselves, and so their logic is bound by feeling the power of the Force running through them.

The others are the Bendu, which is neither Light, nor Dark. When thinking about the Bendu, it is important to remember the canon phrasing - " Jedi and Sith wield the Ashla and Bogan. The light and the dark. I'm the one in the middle. The Bendu. " While it is clearly stated that the Jedi and the Sith 'wield' the Light and Dark, in this case the one in the middle isn't wielding anything ... it merely is called the Bendu. The Bendu is it's own idea, it's own tradition. To be in the middle of Ashla and Bogan is to understand that Wu Wei at its core is harmony with the Force (the dao of tien). While the Jedi espouse a practice of denying their passions, this doesn't mean that those passions are inherently disharmonious with the Dao. Just as simply, the Sith method of mollifying those emotions to maintain an inner harmony doesn't make them in a state of Wu Wei. So, the Bendu seek to maintain harmony with the Dao and achieve Wu Wei by being one with the greater Force, the concept that not only is the outside world reflected in the Dao, but also their inner natures as well, and true harmony can only come through the casting off of the idea that we as vessels are interacting with the Dao, and instead attempting to recognize our part of the Dao. The Bendu thus seek to bring their viewpoint into alignment with that of the universal Harmony, and instead of looking at the universe from their perspective, they try and look at themselves from the universes perspective instead. They seek to act in harmony by seeing the Dao reflected in calm, and they seek disharmony when the Dao is turbulent, so their logic is bound by feeling the universe around them, as slow moving and infinite as it is.

It's important to note; 'the Bendu' is a name of it's own, analogous with Jedi and Sith, not Light and Dark. They sit in the middle of Light and Dark, meaning they prefer neither harmony nor disharmony inherently, and have developed and 'outward in' philosophy that allows the universe to tell them when to be harmonious or not. There are other traditions, to be sure, that accept an idea of being Light focused, Dark focused, or somewhere in the middle.

11 hours ago, Lordbiscuit said:

<SNIP>

Reminds me of Arthas Menethil and his disagreement with Uther the Lightbringer in Warcraft 3 .

(Which, incidentally, was a better Vader origin story than the cinematic backyard abortion we got in the prequels...)

On 8/30/2017 at 1:02 AM, Archlyte said:

I just don't see much use for them, but this seems to be the new shiny, and everyone and his brother has an idea for a Gray Jedi character....

... So is the Gray Jedi an excuse to be a Sith in Jedi robes, or is it the way in which the canon will crap on the duality in favor of moral relativism, and nuanced characters that belong more in 21st century earth than in a galaxy far far away?

Someone brought up the Je'daii earlier in this thread and if you are interested in this strive for balance it's worth reading Tim Lebbon's, Dawn of the Jedi - Into the Void as it gives a really great example of how a Force using hero of that order approached choices and how the order started to split. It's a good read and I enjoyed it and I would also recommend it anyone who wants to play something like this as well.

The Je'daii were absolutely not Grey Jedi in the sense that they were able to use both sides of the Force without repercussions as a lot of Players may wish. They understood that using the Force required balance not the results of that use. What I mean by this is that they played an active role in maintaining order and fighting evil, making choices and acting in a way they felt was necessary for the greater good even without necessarily utilizing the Force to do it directly. Imagine a Knight Errant with a code that was in most aspects what we would consider good but when they did draw on the Force is when the balance between Light and Dark became important. Here's an example: a group of children have been taken by a slaver and a Je'daii is tasked to save them and remove the slaver as threat to future children. In their attempt to find them they draw upon the Force using both their emotions of Love for those children and Anger at the slaver, but maintaining Calm and detached so as to not cloud their vision. When in combat with the slavers and deciding their fate they again draw on the Force in the same way using strong emotions to overcome their foe and their calm to keep from being overcome by those emotions themselves.

This is actually pretty in line with the themes of Star Wars with it's fight between the Light and the Dark side but fight is internal and not between opposing orders. Unfortunately although this makes for great drama in storytelling it doesn't lend itself well to a game mechanic...

11 hours ago, FuriousGreg said:

Someone brought up the Je'daii earlier in this thread and if you are interested in this strive for balance it's worth reading Tim Lebbon's, Dawn of the Jedi - Into the Void as it gives a really great example of how a Force using hero of that order approached choices and how the order started to split. It's a good read and I enjoyed it and I would also recommend it anyone who wants to play something like this as well.

The Je'daii were absolutely not Grey Jedi in the sense that they were able to use both sides of the Force without repercussions as a lot of Players may wish. They understood that using the Force required balance not the results of that use. What I mean by this is that they played an active role in maintaining order and fighting evil, making choices and acting in a way they felt was necessary for the greater good even without necessarily utilizing the Force to do it directly. Imagine a Knight Errant with a code that was in most aspects what we would consider good but when they did draw on the Force is when the balance between Light and Dark became important. Here's an example: a group of children have been taken by a slaver and a Je'daii is tasked to save them and remove the slaver as threat to future children. In their attempt to find them they draw upon the Force using both their emotions of Love for those children and Anger at the slaver, but maintaining Calm and detached so as to not cloud their vision. When in combat with the slavers and deciding their fate they again draw on the Force in the same way using strong emotions to overcome their foe and their calm to keep from being overcome by those emotions themselves.

This is actually pretty in line with the themes of Star Wars with it's fight between the Light and the Dark side but fight is internal and not between opposing orders. Unfortunately although this makes for great drama in storytelling it doesn't lend itself well to a game mechanic...

No you see the intention doesn't actually change their action. It doesn't matter why you act in a predatory manner (as it is described in Force and Destiny under the section on the Duality of the Force), it is what you have done that matters. All of the excuses don't make it any different in the end, because the Force is divided and so the force adjudicates what is Light and what is Dark. So let's say you have a force user who is really a jerk, and all he thinks about is evil. But, he never hurts anyone, is kind to others as he goes about his day, and he follows orders from the Jedi Temple or his Master, so his deeds are in alignment with the Jedi. This guy isn't a Dark Jedi (or Sith or what have you) until he starts actually doing bad stuff. Then the Force goes, ok here is your yellow eyes your big fast power: your reward for acting on those intentions. He may be flirting with the Dark Side of the Force but he's not actually gong to tap into it until he Does something Dark.

The Gray Jedi says ok look, I'm going to actually do something that is bad, but because I think it's for a good reason, or because I think it's not really possible for people to understand and live up to the objectively proven duality of the Force, I'm decreeing that I'm a Gray Jedi, not someone doing something bad. Only he is doing something bad. If you insist he is not then like I said earlier you are using moral relativism which makes no sense when you have a magical referee who has two ways of categorizing the Force. Eventually the so called "Gray Jedi" is gonna hit the Dark side proper, and his intentions won't mean squat. Pretty sure Anakin thought he was doing what he needed to do to save Padme, but having some convenient philosophy about it wouldn't have prevented him from falling to the dark side.

Now, the new movie may come out and we may be told by Luke that the Jedi and the Sith were both stupid, and that no one realized all this time that there was a measured way to use the Force. All this time all you had to do was act like a normal person, and you could have had the Force too. All of the wars and struggles fought around good and evil were just misunderstandings in a big gray universe where there is no actual good and evil, just the need to do as much good mathematically as you do evil.

6 hours ago, Archlyte said:

The Gray Jedi says ok look, I'm going to actually do something that is bad, but because I think it's for a good reason, or because I think it's not really possible for people to understand and live up to the objectively proven duality of the Force, I'm decreeing that I'm a Gray Jedi, not someone doing something bad. Only he is doing something bad.

You can't just say something like "objectively proven duality" when modern canon is doing everything in its power to contradict that (Father, Bendu, etc.). Besides that, the only reason we have to believe the Force is a strict duality is that the Jedi said so, and they already have a horse in the race, so why trust anything they say about the Force?

8 hours ago, Nivrap said:

You can't just say something like "objectively proven duality" when modern canon is doing everything in its power to contradict that (Father, Bendu, etc.). Besides that, the only reason we have to believe the Force is a strict duality is that the Jedi said so, and they already have a horse in the race, so why trust anything they say about the Force?

I think this is screenwriter convenience and nothing more. If the Gray thing is right then all of the lore is wrong from any perspective. I'm not an EU nerd at all, but throwing out all of the history because nobody figured out that Gray was a thing is just bad. In the Force and Destiny book it details the Duality of the Force in no uncertain terms. It is objective both in the rules, and in the setting as proven by effects of each side that are identifiers that good and evil are different. It doesn't matter who said it, the concept is what is being discussed. The Jedi and the Sith both believe in the light and dark side because they are real. If there was a viable third way the whole time, that just happens to mesh with modern earth lifestyle, then it's 20,000 years of ignorance.

18 hours ago, Archlyte said:

No you see the intention doesn't actually change their action. It doesn't matter why you act in a predatory manner (as it is described in Force and Destiny under the section on the Duality of the Force), it is what you have done that matters. All of the excuses don't make it any different in the end, because the Force is divided and so the force adjudicates what is Light and what is Dark. So let's say you have a force user who is really a jerk, and all he thinks about is evil. But, he never hurts anyone, is kind to others as he goes about his day, and he follows orders from the Jedi Temple or his Master, so his deeds are in alignment with the Jedi. This guy isn't a Dark Jedi (or Sith or what have you) until he starts actually doing bad stuff. Then the Force goes, ok here is your yellow eyes your big fast power: your reward for acting on those intentions. He may be flirting with the Dark Side of the Force but he's not actually gong to tap into it until he Does something Dark.

The Gray Jedi says ok look, I'm going to actually do something that is bad, but because I think it's for a good reason, or because I think it's not really possible for people to understand and live up to the objectively proven duality of the Force, I'm decreeing that I'm a Gray Jedi, not someone doing something bad. Only he is doing something bad. If you insist he is not then like I said earlier you are using moral relativism which makes no sense when you have a magical referee who has two ways of categorizing the Force. Eventually the so called "Gray Jedi" is gonna hit the Dark side proper, and his intentions won't mean squat. Pretty sure Anakin thought he was doing what he needed to do to save Padme, but having some convenient philosophy about it wouldn't have prevented him from falling to the dark side.

Now, the new movie may come out and we may be told by Luke that the Jedi and the Sith were both stupid, and that no one realized all this time that there was a measured way to use the Force. All this time all you had to do was act like a normal person, and you could have had the Force too. All of the wars and struggles fought around good and evil were just misunderstandings in a big gray universe where there is no actual good and evil, just the need to do as much good mathematically as you do evil.

Im beginning to suspect that the new film is going to show us that the universe will always try to balance itself, that when Luke began training the new batch of Jedi he eventually also gave life to the dark side. Anakin and ultimately Luke was the balance to thr universe being put out of kilter since the death of the father in the Mortis arc . Essentially the Jedi brought about the sith by their very existence, instead of following the "will of the force" they followed a form of paragonship , This is where I think that QuiGon got it right, and even to an extent Anakin's actions brought about the "balance" at the end of Return of the Jedi, the seeds of which were sown (pun not intended). Anakin wasn't allowed to follow his passion and get married.

The jedi concentrated too hard on being good(or more exactly on trying to avoid the temptation of falling to the dark side ) and forgot how to live like a human being. Instead of learning how to deal with imbalance they strove to avoid the situation altogether. It's like someone saying they never want to fall in love because they might get hurt when the relationship fails, before they even know what falling in love is like, or to put it in a less emotion analogy - why learn to ride a bike when Im going to fall off a few times. The flip side to this is that when "falling off" they arent dealing with space wizards that can strangle you with a mere thought, but then again, just because I have sharp knives in the kitchen, doesnt mean Ill murder someone when I lose my temper. There will always be crime syndicates in this world, but it doesnt mean that all of us are at risk of becoming criminals.

6 hours ago, Archlyte said:

I think this is screenwriter convenience and nothing more. If the Gray thing is right then all of the lore is wrong from any perspective. I'm not an EU nerd at all, but throwing out all of the history because nobody figured out that Gray was a thing is just bad. In the Force and Destiny book it details the Duality of the Force in no uncertain terms. It is objective both in the rules, and in the setting as proven by effects of each side that are identifiers that good and evil are different. It doesn't matter who said it, the concept is what is being discussed. The Jedi and the Sith both believe in the light and dark side because they are real. If there was a viable third way the whole time, that just happens to mesh with modern earth lifestyle, then it's 20,000 years of ignorance.

20,000 years of ignorance is chump-change in Human history. And when you refer to "all of the lore," are you referring by chance to the three films that tore away the illusion of the Jedi's moral high-ground, the two cartoons that provide compelling evidence for other possibilities than "hard-Light or hard-Dark," and the multitude of (canon) comics that poke holes in the Jedi and Sith philosophies ( Anakin and Obi-Wan, for instance)? Force and Destiny is created by humans, with preconceptions and a lack of insider info on the story team's plans.

1 hour ago, syrath said:

Im beginning to suspect that the new film is going to show us that the universe will always try to balance itself, that when Luke began training the new batch of Jedi he eventually also gave life to the dark side. Anakin and ultimately Luke was the balance to thr universe being put out of kilter since the death of the father in the Mortis arc . Essentially the Jedi brought about the sith by their very existence, instead of following the "will of the force" they followed a form of paragonship , This is where I think that QuiGon got it right, and even to an extent Anakin's actions brought about the "balance" at the end of Return of the Jedi, the seeds of which were sown (pun not intended). Anakin wasn't allowed to follow his passion and get married.

The jedi concentrated too hard on being good(or more exactly on trying to avoid the temptation of falling to the dark side ) and forgot how to live like a human being. Instead of learning how to deal with imbalance they strove to avoid the situation altogether. It's like someone saying they never want to fall in love because they might get hurt when the relationship fails, before they even know what falling in love is like, or to put it in a less emotion analogy - why learn to ride a bike when Im going to fall off a few times. The flip side to this is that when "falling off" they arent dealing with space wizards that can strangle you with a mere thought, but then again, just because I have sharp knives in the kitchen, doesnt mean Ill murder someone when I lose my temper. There will always be crime syndicates in this world, but it doesnt mean that all of us are at risk of becoming criminals.

Did the Jedi try to become "too good" ? I think that's a human audience thing more than something that actually represents the rules of the fictional world. Humans are only one species who become Jedi, and so the whole of light and dark needs to conform to what is comfortable for human? And humans who want to justify moral relativism in particular. Sure it's hard not crashing my car into people who cut me off, but I do it. I also do not attempt to be someone who has exacting ideals like the jedi, but if you put a magical power force in front of me I might think differently

I will say that you have presented one of the best arguments I have seen, and that is this idea you speak of in which the Force itself wants balance. My thinking is that balance is not too much good not too much evil, but because they define each other as you say there needs to be enough of a balance that there is not too much moral die-off or moral over predation.

1 hour ago, Nivrap said:

20,000 years of ignorance is chump-change in Human history. And when you refer to "all of the lore," are you referring by chance to the three films that tore away the illusion of the Jedi's moral high-ground, the two cartoons that provide compelling evidence for other possibilities than "hard-Light or hard-Dark," and the multitude of (canon) comics that poke holes in the Jedi and Sith philosophies ( Anakin and Obi-Wan, for instance)? Force and Destiny is created by humans, with preconceptions and a lack of insider info on the story team's plans.

Well I have to admit that I didn't see you using the ignorance of the FaD writers as an argument. But again though, why did no one figure out in 20,000 years that these things were just plain wrong? Because the setting provides evidence that it's not wrong, it's just this problem that people have with ideals that they feel they cannot uphold. They find it hard to relate to a character who could give up love for wisdom, and while I understand that, it doesn't mean that the Star Wars universe needs to be cleansed of its nature. The writing in the prequels is just bad, and it really does make the Jedi look like idiots, but that was George writing himself into a corner.

To come in now and change it all for the sake of people wanting to feel at ease with the Jedi is just bad. Why not keep the duality of the Force and just pay more attention to the non-force using characters if you want to feel human ambivalence and inability to commit to non-intuitive ideals? The answer is because the Gray Jedi people want to have their cake and eat it too. They will diminish the whole story so that they can feel like they solved the puzzle, they got to be a normal human but with super powers, and in doing so will have killed Star Wars.

8 hours ago, Archlyte said:

Well I have to admit that I didn't see you using the ignorance of the FaD writers as an argument. But again though, why did no one figure out in 20,000 years that these things were just plain wrong? Because the setting provides evidence that it's not wrong, it's just this problem that people have with ideals that they feel they cannot uphold. They find it hard to relate to a character who could give up love for wisdom, and while I understand that, it doesn't mean that the Star Wars universe needs to be cleansed of its nature. The writing in the prequels is just bad, and it really does make the Jedi look like idiots, but that was George writing himself into a corner.

To come in now and change it all for the sake of people wanting to feel at ease with the Jedi is just bad. Why not keep the duality of the Force and just pay more attention to the non-force using characters if you want to feel human ambivalence and inability to commit to non-intuitive ideals? The answer is because the Gray Jedi people want to have their cake and eat it too. They will diminish the whole story so that they can feel like they solved the puzzle, they got to be a normal human but with super powers, and in doing so will have killed Star Wars.

I disagree about the writing in the prequels. Some of the delivery? Sure. But the writing in the prequels gave us some of the best world-building that people are still discussing and debating about today. Also, how did nobody figure out it was wrong? Well, I'm not sure the Jedi and Sith orders have even been around that long, and besides that they're cults with actual super powers. During the age of the Republic, the Bardottan monks were pretty much the only people who could tell the Jedi they were wrong, and that confused the council to no end. Even Yoda considered the Bardottans an enigma.

It's not being changed now, it has been changing since 1999. While this is a subjective point, I do not believe that neutral Force-users will "kill" Star Wars. You may leave the franchise and declare it dead, but us lowly mortals with "diminished" ideas will still be here.

On 05/09/2017 at 1:35 AM, Endersai said:

Reminds me of Arthas Menethil and his disagreement with Uther the Lightbringer in Warcraft 3 .

(Which, incidentally, was a better Vader origin story than the cinematic backyard abortion we got in the prequels...)

Admitively, aside from hearthstone I haven't played warcraft, having seen the lych king expansion though...

Re: I think the prospect of the "middle" path is possible, but exists between life itself and absolute corruption? Personally this prospect of "mathematically committing evil to maintain some balance" sounds silly, because no one inside this universe knows what these arbitrary numbers are, are we dealing hundreds? Thousands? Billions? Or have you already fallen to the darkness in the meantime by seeing life as numbers, not people? The idea of artificially committing evil just to remain within this mystical 30-70 zone sounds off, no matter the intention.

Thing is, the Force is Life itself and the Darkside is it's perversion, so the key thing is what is the person actually aiming to do with the dark side? To manipulate your own fate or that of others? To always make the most efficient decision to preserve law and order? Is making an example of those rioters the best way to go about things? Personally being at 100 morality doesn't present paragon like a beacon of light, but reflects a person who is satisfied with their lot in life in the galaxy and has no regrets and is willing to let situations play out, a darksider is the inverse, always craving what they can't have and feel compelled to stack the deck in their favour.

This comes from someone who roleplays a character who drift's between light and darkness, not because of belief (He finds the Jedi manipulative and distant at the best of times, and despite receiving instruction from a sith saber for two years, is frequently pressured by darksiders frequently attempt to end his life just for existing.) but because of practicality. Tobin Stryder doesn't have a sanctuary to retreat to when things get tough and he cannot isolate himself from the galaxy like they could to find his inner calm. His struggle was never about finding this mystical grey path, his conflict was more based on keeping his sanity despite being in the most brutal war this galaxy has ever seen, to maintain his moral compass to save the galaxy from a dictatorial regime without becoming consumed by the dark impulses to become a monster himself that indiscriminately lashes out at the civilian support that hold together the imperial regime,even if that could bring about victory more quickly.

Being conflicted was never a choice for him, it was a direct consequence of always being on the run, fight and frankly make some horrid decisions to sacrifice hundreds to save millions. So perhaps neutral force users aren't these mystical "grey Jedi", but a rather more ordinary person that doesn't have the benefit of making the right choice or the conviction to "wait and see where this conflict goes.". Despite his position Tobin is a starch supporter of the alliance, just as he puts it "I'll have time for rehab later, I've got a war to win first before my son's old enough to walk."

Keep in mind that, shortly after Endor Luke left the war to go artifact hunting and only emerged back in the galaxy proper after the war was over some 3-5 years later. So when I refer to the "wait and see mentality", I am referring to that mentality to abstain completely and letting the galaxy take it's natural cause, rather then getting needlessly involved.

On 8/31/2017 at 3:12 PM, Tramp Graphics said:

It should be noted that that is the "modern" interpretation of the Jedi Code . There is a much older version which reads:

Emotion, yet peace.

Ignorance, yet knowledge.

Passion, yet serenity.

Chaos, yet harmony.

Death, yet the Force. ^[8]

It's old, but it's still a valid reading of the code in the time of the prequels. In the Kanan comic, Depa Billaba used this version of the code for her mantra as she was recovering from her injuries sustained in a battle with Grievous. I prefer this version of the code because it does not deny emotion, ignorance, and so on, but it accepts the fact that they exist and strives to overcome them.

18 hours ago, Nivrap said:

I disagree about the writing in the prequels. Some of the delivery? Sure. But the writing in the prequels gave us some of the best world-building that people are still discussing and debating about today. Also, how did nobody figure out it was wrong? Well, I'm not sure the Jedi and Sith orders have even been around that long, and besides that they're cults with actual super powers. During the age of the Republic, the Bardottan monks were pretty much the only people who could tell the Jedi they were wrong, and that confused the council to no end. Even Yoda considered the Bardottans an enigma.

It's not being changed now, it has been changing since 1999. While this is a subjective point, I do not believe that neutral Force-users will "kill" Star Wars. You may leave the franchise and declare it dead, but us lowly mortals with "diminished" ideas will still be here.

The Jedi, specifically out date the Republic. The writing in the prequels is bad. Space Jesus, midichloriens, antagonists who are supposed to be both scary and comical (b1's, Super Battle droids, Grievous), Jedi who can't see anything coming and I'm talking about with common sense not precognition, a character named Qui Gon Jinn who shouldn't have been folded into Obi Wan instead of adding an unnecessary character, dialogue that is maybe the worst I can think of, Jar Jar cast the vote that brings in the Empire (a mentally deficient character decided that issue in the senate), etc. etc. The prequels are written to make you question the Jedi. How can they be cool and yet be so ignorant and boring in their outlook? you ask yourself, and even though George wielded this as a way of making the Empire come into being (how else to you slide something like this past a bunch of magical peacekeepers who have somehow kept it together for millennia), I don't think he would have intentionally meant to deal a crippling blow to the duality of the Force. The questioning that comes from watching the prequels comes from how ineffective and dumb the Jedi seem, not because the Force is wishy washy. The Space Fantasy Fairy Tale that is star wars is built on the ideas of good and evil, if there becomes an equally powerful "Normal Guy" Jedi the whole thing is ******. It turns out that the key to magic was actually that you just want to look cool while doing something. The keys to the magic realm are obtainable simply by being a normal dude, and the only price to pay is that you have to lecture the Jedi and the Sith about how stupid they are. Which is basically to look at the fourth wall and say how stupid we are.

3 hours ago, Lickintoad said:

It's old, but it's still a valid reading of the code in the time of the prequels. In the Kanan comic, Depa Billaba used this version of the code for her mantra as she was recovering from her injuries sustained in a battle with Grievous. I prefer this version of the code because it does not deny emotion, ignorance, and so on, but it accepts the fact that they exist and strives to overcome them.

Woooo, I didn't knew this version of the code. I like it more than that of "there is no... x5".

It talks of acceptance, of really accept and know oneself. The "there is no..." always seemed to me as talking about negation, and all we know that human brain, the more negates something, the more attaches and becomes obsesed with this "something".

5 hours ago, Archlyte said:

The Jedi, specifically out date the Republic. The writing in the prequels is bad. Space Jesus, midichloriens, antagonists who are supposed to be both scary and comical (b1's, Super Battle droids, Grievous), Jedi who can't see anything coming and I'm talking about with common sense not precognition, a character named Qui Gon Jinn who shouldn't have been folded into Obi Wan instead of adding an unnecessary character, dialogue that is maybe the worst I can think of, Jar Jar cast the vote that brings in the Empire (a mentally deficient character decided that issue in the senate), etc. etc. The prequels are written to make you question the Jedi. How can they be cool and yet be so ignorant and boring in their outlook? you ask yourself, and even though George wielded this as a way of making the Empire come into being (how else to you slide something like this past a bunch of magical peacekeepers who have somehow kept it together for millennia), I don't think he would have intentionally meant to deal a crippling blow to the duality of the Force. The questioning that comes from watching the prequels comes from how ineffective and dumb the Jedi seem, not because the Force is wishy washy. The Space Fantasy Fairy Tale that is star wars is built on the ideas of good and evil, if there becomes an equally powerful "Normal Guy" Jedi the whole thing is ******. It turns out that the key to magic was actually that you just want to look cool while doing something. The keys to the magic realm are obtainable simply by being a normal dude, and the only price to pay is that you have to lecture the Jedi and the Sith about how stupid they are. Which is basically to look at the fourth wall and say how stupid we are.

Anakin is only an analogue to Jesus in that he had a virgin birth, but that doesn't define his character (unlike Neo from The Matrix). I would like to know what you think is so bad about midichlorians, seeing as they're not the Force and merely allow sentient beings to wield the Force.

Qui-Gon is incredibly important, not only as a role model to define young Anakin's ideals for what a Jedi should be, but also as a mentor to Obi-Wan, showing him that the Council isn't always right. Not to mention, he showed Yoda how to become one with the Force.

The duality of the Force is not set-in-stone as you seem to think. Just because the original three films happened to come first doesn't mean they are the only films worth consideration when it comes to Star Wars lore. If you feel personally insulted when the Jedi are insulted, that's not the writers' fault.

8 hours ago, Nivrap said:

Anakin is only an analogue to Jesus in that he had a virgin birth, but that doesn't define his character (unlike Neo from The Matrix). I would like to know what you think is so bad about midichlorians, seeing as they're not the Force and merely allow sentient beings to wield the Force.

Qui-Gon is incredibly important, not only as a role model to define young Anakin's ideals for what a Jedi should be, but also as a mentor to Obi-Wan, showing him that the Council isn't always right. Not to mention, he showed Yoda how to become one with the Force.

The duality of the Force is not set-in-stone as you seem to think. Just because the original three films happened to come first doesn't mean they are the only films worth consideration when it comes to Star Wars lore. If you feel personally insulted when the Jedi are insulted, that's not the writers' fault.

Midichlorians are terrible because it removes all the mysticism from the previous movies. You are special because you have a bunch of these things. Well why don't we do midichlorian transplants cause science. The whole thing is dumb and should never have been there. It was a clumsy mechanism to explain why Qui-gon would drag an unknown boy all across space. And why would the Jedi send him to a known battle? That is dumb. The whole episode one script is clumsy. Like Who is the protagonist? At the beginning you think it is Obi-wan. then you leave him behind for half the movie.

2 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Midichlorians are terrible because it removes all the mysticism from the previous movies. You are special because you have a bunch of these things. Well why don't we do midichlorian transplants cause science. The whole thing is dumb and should never have been there. It was a clumsy mechanism to explain why Qui-gon would drag an unknown boy all across space. And why would the Jedi send him to a known battle? That is dumb. The whole episode one script is clumsy. Like Who is the protagonist? At the beginning you think it is Obi-wan. then you leave him behind for half the movie.

They actually can't transplant midichlorians to create Force-users. Cylo IV tried it, but the results were unsuccessful. Beyond that, how does it remove the mysticism? It explains nothing about the Force itself, only why people are able to use it. It's like The Weave from Forgotten Realms: magic is still magic, but there's a reason why people can use it. It's also completely in line with lineages being good at the Force genetically, like the Skywalkers.

19 hours ago, Lickintoad said:

It's old, but it's still a valid reading of the code in the time of the prequels. In the Kanan comic, Depa Billaba used this version of the code for her mantra as she was recovering from her injuries sustained in a battle with Grievous. I prefer this version of the code because it does not deny emotion, ignorance, and so on, but it accepts the fact that they exist and strives to overcome them.

Yep. My Jedi character has this version on some wall scrolls hanging in the dojo on his ship.

15 hours ago, hikari_dourden said:

Woooo, I didn't knew this version of the code. I like it more than that of "there is no... x5".

It talks of acceptance, of really accept and know oneself. The "there is no..." always seemed to me as talking about negation, and all we know that human brain, the more negates something, the more attaches and becomes obsesed with this "something".

Pretty much. This version of the code has been around for years.

1 hour ago, Nivrap said:

They actually can't transplant midichlorians to create Force-users. Cylo IV tried it, but the results were unsuccessful. Beyond that, how does it remove the mysticism? It explains nothing about the Force itself, only why people are able to use it. It's like The Weave from Forgotten Realms: magic is still magic, but there's a reason why people can use it. It's also completely in line with lineages being good at the Force genetically, like the Skywalkers.

Which we don't need. And does not actually add anything to the story. It detracts from story.