2 hours ago, Lanuria said:

You just said the code needed to be literal to be understood. If we took the last line of the code to be literal, someone may think that Jedi don't die.

Jedi believe if they achieve their goal they don't die, they become one with the Force when their time comes. Obi-wan didn't leave a corpse behind neither did Yoda. They became one with the Force i.e. they didn't die in the conventional sense, they transcended their physical form.

...Then they became Force Ghosts, kept giving advice and struggled to open pickle jars.

1 minute ago, DarkHorse said:

Jedi believe if they achieve their goal they don't die, they become one with the Force when their time comes. Obi-wan didn't leave a corpse behind neither did Yoda. They became one with the Force i.e. they didn't die in the conventional sense, they transcended their physical form.

...Then they became Force Ghosts, kept giving advice and struggled to open pickle jars.

Becoming a Force Ghost wasn't a Jedi ability. QGJ stole that secret ability from another sect of Force-users.

The force ghost thing isn't all that relative though unless you are saying that QGJ was gray and that's why he was able to transcend when so many couldn't. The problem is this idea that the Force is so poorly understood, even in the ancient times when power was much more profligate, that people couldn't see that somehow both of the main sources of wisdom on it were gross mistakes.

THIS MAKES NO SENSE

Gray must be either: An error of perception, an egotistical attempt to grab power without responsibility or cost, or simply an attractive idea that people follow despite it being unsubstantiated by the actual Force

20 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

I re-watched the trailer for The Last Jedi and Rey references, "The Balance." Now a lot of stuff goes into trailers that never hits the big screen, but this was worrisome to me. Is the balance what makes Rey into a Mary Sue? Is that why she can do all that stuff with no training?

We don't know that she hasn't had training. We know nothing about her background, it's been intentionally left vague, for dramatic purposes. It's entirely possible (and in my opinion highly likely), that she's a survivor of Luke's training school, when Kylo purged it. So to say she's had no training is speculation at best.

Plus, and this always seems to be something people seem to forget the in The Great Rey Debate, the Force isn't just an energy field people tap into to do magic. As Obi-Wan explained in New Hope, when training Luke, that the Force can control your actions. I mean, Luke specifically asks that, to which Obi-Wan responds "Partially, but it also obeys your commands." So depending on the situation, it's entirely feasible for someone who has tapped into the Force for help, is getting the help in the form of basically being puppeted by the Force a bit. You don't know how to fight with a lightsaber? That's ok, I'm the Force, and I'll help guide your hand so you don't get it lopped off. You can't fly this starship, or know to shoot the center of this droid controlling carrier? (Phantom Menace) No problem, I'll guide your 6 year old body and line you up for a good shot, plus I'll make sure all these droid ships don't shoot you despite you having zero space combat training.

2 hours ago, Archlyte said:

Someone posted on here that it's fun to be a Force user and not have to follow those Jedi rules. Someone else was trying to make the case that Dark side use does not affect your appearance.

Have you even seen Star Wars?

Yes, and the two primary examples - Sidious and Vader - were assumed to be indicative of Dark Side = Darth Hideous in the early going. It only became clear later that the two of them were scarred up because of other events - lightning to the face and a lava steam bath, respectively - and up until then they had looked perfectly normal, as did other dark side characters who didn't suffer extensive third degree burns or some equivalent trauma. So no, the dark side doesn't cause any intrinsic change in outward appearance, and most of them could present themselves as charming when they felt like it. (Vader couldn't, but that's because he'd never been capable of it at any point in his life. )

As for being a force user and not following the Jedi rules: there were/are other force using traditions out there which generally don't care for (or perhaps even know about) the Jedi code and some of the Jedi themselves didn't follow the the Jedi code (or at least had a very different idea of what it entailed than the council did), so it's definitely not a requirement that you follow them to be a force user or to stay on the light side.

Not following the Jedi code and being a dark side user are two completely different things. Likewise, dark side force users aren't automatically Sith because that's a specific tradition rather than an intrinsic concept of the dark side.

"The dark side, much like a strong, addictive narcotic, affected not only the mind of the user but the appearance as well. As one immersed oneself deeper within the dark side of the Force, its malevolent power took a toll on the body. Darth Bane explained that the reason for this physical degradation was because flesh and bone lacked the endurance to channel the immense power of the dark side indefinitely."

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_side_of_the_Force/Legends

12 hours ago, Decorus said:

Its equally fun playing not a Jedi.

Grey Jedi aren't people who run around blowing stuff up with Force Lightning for good.

They are people who see the Jedi Code as more Guidelines then strict rules that must be obeyed.

There was actually one time that two characters, my failed sith/inquisitor in a duel with a NPC inquisitor who I knew was once a Jedi knight. The exchange actually ended up meaning more then I had intended it to mean.

Tobin Stryder: "'ere we are, a failed sith for the light and a failed Jedi in the dark, fighting for the death right in the control shield of this (second) shield bunker. Certainly poetic, isn't it?"

Sirak "I have a purpose and you don't Stryder, that is the only difference I see."

Tobin: "Sure, but did becoming a sellout bring you any closer to killing your master? Or did killing your fellow students satisfy your appetite."

The Zavrack's yellow eyes glared at the Rodian as he advanced, igniting his saber.

Tobin: "Exactly. Even when I pointed out WHERE to find his holocron, you were too slow."

-Later, after pulling the classic "fake my own death" stunt-

"Tell me Inquistor; did you ever find satisfaction in your path? Was it worth twenty years of licking up all the emperor's leftovers? I might have...*Pant* failed at being a sith, I couldn't stomach it, but I'm satisfied. Best thing about it all? With this poison, I denied... The emperor the chance... To own me. Bugger off, old man."

Of course, there's only so much one can do against a man who can see the future, when he woke up he had two hands, an inquistior and his own "apprentice" around a dinner table! XD

Very unjedi and unconventional as they come. Yet he leads a life that is both self satisfying while protecting the others he cares about. The sacrifice? Never getting the recongistion he deserves and dedicating much of his adult life to a continuous war. Very draining.

2 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

We don't know that she hasn't had training. We know nothing about her background, it's been intentionally left vague, for dramatic purposes. It's entirely possible (and in my opinion highly likely), that she's a survivor of Luke's training school, when Kylo purged it. So to say she's had no training is speculation at best.

Plus, and this always seems to be something people seem to forget the in The Great Rey Debate, the Force isn't just an energy field people tap into to do magic. As Obi-Wan explained in New Hope, when training Luke, that the Force can control your actions. I mean, Luke specifically asks that, to which Obi-Wan responds "Partially, but it also obeys your commands." So depending on the situation, it's entirely feasible for someone who has tapped into the Force for help, is getting the help in the form of basically being puppeted by the Force a bit. You don't know how to fight with a lightsaber? That's ok, I'm the Force, and I'll help guide your hand so you don't get it lopped off. You can't fly this starship, or know to shoot the center of this droid controlling carrier? (Phantom Menace) No problem, I'll guide your 6 year old body and line you up for a good shot, plus I'll make sure all these droid ships don't shoot you despite you having zero space combat training.

Well we don't know that Finn wasn't formerly the President of Corellia. I mean we didn't get to hear what he did after he was abducted for duty. Maybe Rey was also some Jedi from eons ago reincarnated, but we don't have that that info either, so I'm going to use your argument against you and state that there is no explanation of any of it and so anything that is sympathetic or against the stuff we see in the movie is all speculation. So to say she has had training is also speculation of the same sort.

But what we are actually dealing with is Abrams, he has a history of just asking questions and not answering them because he knows that people will fill in the blank with what they like best.

As for the force taking over for you, that is fine. I guess we can see that the Jedi and the Sith have been guided by the force, except for where morality is concerned, because even though the force distinguishes between good and bad it doesn't care? Is that your point?

1 hour ago, Garran said:

Yes, and the two primary examples - Sidious and Vader - were assumed to be indicative of Dark Side = Darth Hideous in the early going. It only became clear later that the two of them were scarred up because of other events - lightning to the face and a lava steam bath, respectively - and up until then they had looked perfectly normal, as did other dark side characters who didn't suffer extensive third degree burns or some equivalent trauma. So no, the dark side doesn't cause any intrinsic change in outward appearance, and most of them could present themselves as charming when they felt like it. (Vader couldn't, but that's because he'd never been capable of it at any point in his life. )

As for being a force user and not following the Jedi rules: there were/are other force using traditions out there which generally don't care for (or perhaps even know about) the Jedi code and some of the Jedi themselves didn't follow the the Jedi code (or at least had a very different idea of what it entailed than the council did), so it's definitely not a requirement that you follow them to be a force user or to stay on the light side.

Not following the Jedi code and being a dark side user are two completely different things. Likewise, dark side force users aren't automatically Sith because that's a specific tradition rather than an intrinsic concept of the dark side.

I think those are fine distinctions but are you trying to say that the Force is agnostic toward morality? The reason you ugly up a character is usually to make it easy for the audience to recognize them as bad. They did this a lot in the movies and played on our sense of aesthetics. Jabba, The Emperor, both examples of super evil and super ugly. You don't have to be ugly to be bad, but in fairy tales it is often the case where the bad guy is scary. Primally we associate ugly with bad, even though that's not a rational judgement.

Ok so for the Gray proponents. How would you handle your awesome Gray Jedi PC.

Player: "I am going to kill the captive security captain that I just stunned by cutting off his head. Oh and I'm a Gray Force User so I won't be taking any conflict for that. And also, I can use the white and the black dots no problem for my abilities. Thanks"

If you are someone who somehow feels the whole thing is optional because if the heading it falls under in the book, how then do you adjudicate their actions? Is everything ok under the right conditions? Is there anything that you feel is bad enough that it is always bad?

6 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

Ok so for the Gray proponents. How would you handle your awesome Gray Jedi PC.

Player: "I am going to kill the captive security captain that I just stunned by cutting off his head. Oh and I'm a Gray Force User so I won't be taking any conflict for that. And also, I can use the white and the black dots no problem for my abilities. Thanks"

If you are someone who somehow feels the whole thing is optional because if the heading it falls under in the book, how then do you adjudicate their actions? Is everything ok under the right conditions? Is there anything that you feel is bad enough that it is always bad?

I don't get where you're coming from. I've had players play it gray, and they still use the Morality rules like everyone else. The difference is that they make their choices without weighing the consequences (Conflict) first, but they still take the effects of that Conflict. They don't have any special ability to use both sides of the Force, and they are aligned with either the light or the dark at any given moment but can transition from one to the other without the character concept being broken.

8 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

I don't get where you're coming from. I've had players play it gray, and they still use the Morality rules like everyone else. The difference is that they make their choices without weighing the consequences (Conflict) first, but they still take the effects of that Conflict. They don't have any special ability to use both sides of the Force, and they are aligned with either the light or the dark at any given moment but can transition from one to the other without the character concept being broken.

So why would they get conflict though if they are balanced? If they get conflict, then how do they remain balanced? Do you coach them that they are getting too far to one side? Are they able to do what they want or not?

Why would Dark Side or light side matter to them, why wouldn't they be able to use both of them just the same? I didn't see any grey pips on any dice so I'm assuming they have to use the ones with just black and white dots.

12 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

So why would they get conflict though if they are balanced? If they get conflict, then how do they remain balanced? Do you coach them that they are getting too far to one side? Are they able to do what they want or not?

Why would Dark Side or light side matter to them, why wouldn't they be able to use both of them just the same? I didn't see any grey pips on any dice so I'm assuming they have to use the ones with just black and white dots.

You're not understanding. They follow the same rules as everyone else. The characters are not concerned about the Morality. This may sound like a fast track to dark side, but they are also not playing outright evil, so they tend to get a moderate amount of Conflict. Sometimes the Morality goes up, sometimes it goes down, but in general they tend to hover between 30-70. This means that they tended to stay light side until they don't then they tend to stay dark side for a while. The character is gray overall even though the Force pips they default to using are always one or the other. In either case, the character doesn't really care all that much which part of the Force is being tapped even though the player is paying attention to it.

Edit: And they're not "balanced" the way you are describing. In fact, they are actually less balanced that a full-on dark side character would be. In short, they are conflicted (with Conflict!) even if only on a subconscious level.

Just now, HappyDaze said:

You're not understanding. They follow the same rules as everyone else. The characters are not concerned about the Morality. This may sound like a fast track to dark side, but they are also not playing outright evil, so they tend to get a moderate amount of Conflict. Sometimes the Morality goes up, sometimes it goes down, but in general they tend to hover between 30-70. This means that they tended to stay light side until they don't then they tend to stay dark side for a while. The character is gray overall even though the Force pips they default to using are always one or the other. In either case, the character doesn't really care all that much which part of the Force is being tapped even though the player is paying attention to it.

That's what I thought you were saying. So basically the character just does what they want and you don't sweat it because they stay about in the normal range. You say one side or the other but I'm sure that what you mean is that they default to using light side points (which apparently you see as neutral in value) until they do something so egregious that you have to give them conflict. Should they keep going along that path, you may make them follow the rules for falling to the dark side, but the character still doesn't care.

The character is somehow connected enough to the force to experience the duality, but is too dumb or obstinate to accept the duality. The will of the force is basically a second set of reflexes, so it doesn't relate to morality, and because all the character really wants is the space magic, he can approach it however and even though there is an actually Dark and Light Side, it's really of no consequence.

1 hour ago, P-Dub663 said:

/Dark_side_of_the_Force/Legends

Now look at the canon version of that article. Notice how the ugly stuck stuff is conspicuously absent? That's because, however widespread it became in legends material (originally due to people generalizing from Ep 4-6 when that's all there was), it isn't part of the canon lore around the dark side and is directly contradicted by canon sources like the prequels, which show dark side users looking perfectly normal unless they're disfigured by injuries, and who certainly don't pull an instant-Scarface when they become dark siders.

For that matter, even the legends source doesn't support the instant-Scarface idea, presenting it as a long-term effect.

6 minutes ago, Garran said:

Now look at the canon version of that article. Notice how the ugly stuck stuff is conspicuously absent? That's because, however widespread it became in legends material (originally due to people generalizing from Ep 4-6 when that's all there was), it isn't part of the canon lore around the dark side and is directly contradicted by canon sources like the prequels, which show dark side users looking perfectly normal unless they're disfigured by injuries, and who certainly don't pull an instant-Scarface when they become dark siders.

For that matter, even the legends source doesn't support the instant-Scarface idea, presenting it as a long-term effect.

Ok so let me cede that there is not a widespread phenomenon. Do you agree that even one case of such disfigurement occurred, and that it was indeed caused by using the dark side?

2 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

The character is somehow connected enough to the force to experience the duality, but is too dumb or obstinate to accept the duality.

Or they play the duality for what it is. That's what the original Je'daii are portrayed as doing (F&D 378-379) because the force-vergence planet they were on otherwise got a bit temperamental .

Or they have enough self-discipline to tap into volatile emotions and use them to further their own ends without getting overwhelmed by those emotions. ("There's a difference between using your anger and being used by it.")

Or maybe they have a different idea of how those emotions stack up. (It's not a given that anger -> hatred. Anger can just as easily drive someone to make a positive change.)

Etc.

In any case, I agree with the other posters that "Gray" is not "D&D True Neutral", and that "Gray Jedi" is mainly about how someone is viewed by the council, whereas what we're mostly talking about here are gray force users in general.

1 minute ago, Archlyte said:

Ok so let me cede that there is not a widespread phenomenon. Do you agree that even one case of such disfigurement occurred, and that it was indeed caused by using the dark side?

The only one that I know of in canon is Sidious inadvertently melting his own face, and that's not quite the same as "the dark side inherently makes you turn ugly".

In any case, this came up because of the "character hit morality 25 and instant-Scarfaced" game event mentioned earlier, an outcome which isn't supported by either canon or legends.

1 minute ago, Garran said:

Or they play the duality for what it is. That's what the original Je'daii are portrayed as doing (F&D 378-379) because the force-vergence planet they were on otherwise got a bit temperamental .

Or they have enough self-discipline to tap into volatile emotions and use them to further their own ends without getting overwhelmed by those emotions. ("There's a difference between using your anger and being used by it.")

Or maybe they have a different idea of how those emotions stack up. (It's not a given that anger -> hatred. Anger can just as easily drive someone to make a positive change.)

Etc.

In any case, I agree with the other posters that "Gray" is not "D&D True Neutral", and that "Gray Jedi" is mainly about how someone is viewed by the council, whereas what we're mostly talking about here are gray force users in general.

This would be like pointing to cavemen and saying, see they had the right answer. If the Jed'ai had it right how did there become a permanent error in using the force for the rest of history? Anger is a function of a state of physical arousal usually in response to danger or from a survival instinct. Becoming angry actually reduces blood flow to the cerebral cortex in preparation for the body needing that blood flow to lower brain functions and neuro-muscular use. In short, anger makes you stupid. Now if the Force somehow sees that as a good thing, well I just don't know what to do with that. I think the Force would have to base it's morality on sentient use of anger or calm.

I think the "Fell off the wagon" thing you are talking about makes sense, but not this idea that the duality of the force is somehow optional.

1 minute ago, Garran said:

The only one that I know of in canon is Sidious inadvertently melting his own face, and that's not quite the same as "the dark side inherently makes you turn ugly".

In any case, this came up because of the "character hit morality 25 and instant-Scarfaced" game event mentioned earlier, an outcome which isn't supported by either canon or legends.

Ok so did anyone ever get orange eyes from the Dark Side of the Force?

1 hour ago, Archlyte said:

Well we don't know that Finn wasn't formerly the President of Corellia.

...yeah, because between being born, and being abducted as a child to become a child soldier, he ran for political office on a planet that is at odds with the First Order....sure. I know you're being facetious, but come on. There is speculation about missing information, and then there is just silly stuff. Some things have more weight for theories than others, based on the information we have been given in the movies. But sure, you hang onto your President Finn theory, with the foundation of "well nobody said it didn't happen, so it's as valid as all other theories" idea. *thumbs up*

1 hour ago, Archlyte said:

Maybe Rey was also some Jedi from eons ago reincarnated, but we don't have that that info either, so I'm going to use your argument against you and state that there is no explanation of any of it and so anything that is sympathetic or against the stuff we see in the movie is all speculation. So to say she has had training is also speculation of the same sort.

First off, I didn't say that she has had training. I said it's a possibility, and that my personal opinion , based on the hints in the movie we see, are going to be that she's a trained student. What I actually said was that we know nothing about her background. Don't twist my words to imply that I stated as fact that she was trained, just so you can disagree with me, when that was never a stance I made. I said we don't know.

1 hour ago, Archlyte said:

But what we are actually dealing with is Abrams, he has a history of just asking questions and not answering them because he knows that people will fill in the blank with what they like best.

Just like Star Wars fans have been doing for decades, so I don't really see how this is any different.

14 hours ago, DarkHorse said:

First line of the Jedi code - There is no emotion, there is peace. While individuals may display emotions, the goal of the Jedi order is to be emotionless. Again, it is the first line of their code. Any argument for semantics is to ignore that all species and all languages need to understand the code intimately so it needs to be literal and unambiguous.

It should be noted that that is the "modern" interpretation of the Jedi Code . There is a much older version which reads:

Emotion, yet peace.

Ignorance, yet knowledge.

Passion, yet serenity.

Chaos, yet harmony.

Death, yet the Force. ^[8]

6 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

...yeah, because between being born, and being abducted as a child to become a child soldier, he ran for political office on a planet that is at odds with the First Order....sure. I know you're being facetious, but come on. There is speculation about missing information, and then there is just silly stuff. Some things have more weight for theories than others, based on the information we have been given in the movies. But sure, you hang onto your President Finn theory, with the foundation of "well nobody said it didn't happen, so it's as valid as all other theories" idea. *thumbs up*

First off, I didn't say that she has had training. I said it's a possibility, and that my personal opinion , based on the hints in the movie we see, are going to be that she's a trained student. What I actually said was that we know nothing about her background. Don't twist my words to imply that I stated as fact that she was trained, just so you can disagree with me, when that was never a stance I made. I said we don't know.

Just like Star Wars fans have been doing for decades, so I don't really see how this is any different.

could have stopped at facetious

I actually don't have any problem with any of what you said, and I personally found the Rey character to be just fine. I will, however, be unhappy if the reason is revealed to be that all this time it's because no one bothered to be both good and bad at once. I feel that will nullify the Force as it has been presented.

I don't think I used that thing about JJ Abrams as a bad thing, but I feel he is as successful as he is partially because he has that discipline, which Star Wars fans don't as evidenced by the bloated files of the EU. I wasn't attempting to answer any questions about Rey, but simply expressing a fear about how that might happen.

39 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

That's what I thought you were saying. So basically the character just does what they want and you don't sweat it because they stay about in the normal range. You say one side or the other but I'm sure that what you mean is that they default to using light side points (which apparently you see as neutral in value) until they do something so egregious that you have to give them conflict. Should they keep going along that path, you may make them follow the rules for falling to the dark side, but the character still doesn't care.

The character is somehow connected enough to the force to experience the duality, but is too dumb or obstinate to accept the duality. The will of the force is basically a second set of reflexes, so it doesn't relate to morality, and because all the character really wants is the space magic, he can approach it however and even though there is an actually Dark and Light Side, it's really of no consequence.

They default to light to start as per the rules . After that, it's determined per the rules .

Per the rules , all characters do what their player wants unless acted upon by some external control (social skills, Force powers, fear, etc.).

I give Conflict per the rules . I do not hold off on giving it for minor transgressions, and the characters rarely do any major transgressions. That's not because of the Morality, it's because that's what they want to do.

I wouldn't necessarily say they are dumb or obstinate; some of them just go with the flow. However, thanks for trying to say that I'm doing it wrong. You just keep on fellating yourself and I'll just keep running games.

35 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

This would be like pointing to cavemen and saying, see they had the right answer. If the Jed'ai had it right how did there become a permanent error in using the force for the rest of history? Anger is a function of a state of physical arousal usually in response to danger or from a survival instinct. Becoming angry actually reduces blood flow to the cerebral cortex in preparation for the body needing that blood flow to lower brain functions and neuro-muscular use. In short, anger makes you stupid. Now if the Force somehow sees that as a good thing, well I just don't know what to do with that. I think the Force would have to base it's morality on sentient use of anger or calm.

I think the "Fell off the wagon" thing you are talking about makes sense, but not this idea that the duality of the force is somehow optional.

How did all of the other traditions develop that had absolutely nothing to do with it or with the Jedi or Sith philosophies? Because there isn't one true way of the force and perspectives change over thousands of years. The movie-era Jedi had retreated into inflexible dogmatism, and were pretty bad at upholding even that. (IE: For all that they were supposed to avoid attachments, their unthinking attachment to the Republic was their biggest weak spot.)

I'd be careful about citing biological responses - the setting doesn't think that deeply about those things but for all we know half of the species in the Star Wars galaxy could become more clear-headed when they're furious - but again, anger isn't a single thing and "motivated to action" anger is quite different from "lash out in blind fury" anger, to say nothing of how well trained someone is at dealing with it. (This was another weak point for the movie-era Jedi - they kept trying to suppress those emotions and it didn't do them any favors when those emotions finally welled up regardless.)

Back to the main idea though: a "gray" force user is someone who taps into both light and dark without going fully over to either. In a purely game mechanics sense, someone who stays in mid-range morality rather than becoming a dark side user or a light side paragon). In a purely thematic sense a force user who fits the Byronic hero archetype would probably fall into the "gray" category, although that certainly isn't the only "gray"-suited archetype.

Regardless of where they sit on the morality scale though, someone going on innocent-murdering sprees is behaving like a villain and ought to be regarded as such.

The morality system is also one that easily breaks down in either direction - you can potentially have someone behaving horribly and still be light side but you can just as easily end up as dark sider simply by fibbing a lot, and that doesn't fit the bwa-ha-ha motif that "dark side force user" is supposed to be about. It's not *useless* as a system but when using it you have bear in mind that it was written around certain thematic assumptions, and those won't always be the ones at work in the game.

Beyond that, it's only useful if the player actually WANTS to play out the idea of an internal struggle. If they don't, it's not worth using - duty or obligation are a better fit.