Okay guys, I am really sorry for getting the thread so off-track with whether or not Tatooine is a Republic world. That wasn't what I intended to do with my original comment, but I don't wanna be the one responsible for getting the thread locked, so can we all just agree that it's vague and unimportant and move on from there? All I wanted to convey was that Anakin originally believed the Jedi would come to free the slaves, regardless of whether it was legal or not, and Jedi Order's preoccupation with law and order ultimately led to Anakin's betrayal.

8 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

When speaking to an obviously sheltered and naive teenager, yes, she does need to make that distinction clear. Palme assumed that the Republic ruled the entire galaxy; that every planet, every system was a member of the Republic and subject to Republic law.

Padmé is not that stupid.

8 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Both Qui Gon and Shmi as well as Watto made it clear at different points in the movie that the Republic has no jurisdiction on Tatooine.

That the Republic has no power on Tatooine.

8 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The Hutts are not all gangsters, though a good number of them certainly are. Regardless, they do maintain legitimate sovereignty over several systems, including an entire sector and are not members of the Republic, and none of the worlds under their domain are either. Hutt territory is sovereign territory outside of Republic space. The Hutts make the laws there, not the Republic.and this has been firmly established in canon, not just by myself, but numerous others.

Dude, you were trying to cite FFG books of all things as canon. Let's get real.

19 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Padmé is not that stupid.

That the Republic has no power on Tatooine.

Dude, you were trying to cite FFG books of all things as canon. Let's get real.

There have been plenty of other people providing sources from canon that outright tell us that Tatooine is under Hutt rule . You're ignoring the evidence of almost everyone else in the forum to keep picking an argument with a single person.

8 minutes ago, Underachiever599 said:

There have been plenty of other people providing sources from canon that outright tell us that Tatooine is under Hutt rule . You're ignoring the evidence of almost everyone else in the forum to keep picking an argument with a single person.

No, I'm keeping it to the movies. Because things in books tend to only stay canon for a while before they get revised or overwritten or forgotten or made obsolete. And I have shown how everything in the movies fits my interpretation.

But you are right in that I'm focusing on TG. His style of discussion where he just pretends arguments that have him beaten don't exist and doesn't respond honestly is just nonsense. That's why I'm keeping at it with this single strand of discussion. If he can't acknowledge that he was wrong there on the facts, there's no reason to take him seriously anywhere else. And the longer he tries to draw this out, the more ridiculous he looks.

13 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

No, I'm keeping it to the movies. Because things in books tend to only stay canon for a while before they get revised or overwritten or forgotten or made obsolete. And I have shown how everything in the movies fits my interpretation.

But you are right in that I'm focusing on TG. His style of discussion where he just pretends arguments that have him beaten don't exist and doesn't respond honestly is just nonsense. That's why I'm keeping at it with this single strand of discussion. If he can't acknowledge that he was wrong there on the facts, there's no reason to take him seriously anywhere else. And the longer he tries to draw this out, the more ridiculous he looks.

Yes, and I provided evidence from one of the movies. The Clone Wars movie. The driving plot was that the Republic needed to get permission from the Hutts to travel through Hutt controlled space, including Tatooine. Ergo, the Republic was not the authority there, the Hutts were.

Just two minutes into said movie, and we get this conversation:

Palpatine: "We must help Jabba. This is the opportunity we've been looking for. The Jedi must rescue Jabba's son."

Mace: "Hmm, I don't like it. Dealing with that criminal scum. This is a dark day for the Republic."

Palpatine: "I agree, my friend. But what choice do we have? The Hutts control the Outer Rim, and we'll need their space lanes in order to move our troops."

Why would the leader of the Republic say that he's needing Hutt permission to move Republic ships through Republic space? Palpatine, the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic, is admitting that the Hutts have more authority over the Outer Rim worlds than he does, and that the Republic has to do a favor for Jabba just to have access to these hyperspace lanes, which he calls "their space lanes," basically outright saying that those lanes belong to the Hutts.

12 minutes ago, Underachiever599 said:

Yes, and I provided evidence from one of the movies. The Clone Wars movie.

I find it blasphemous that you would include the Clone Wars theatrical release of a couple of haphazardly reworked episodes with the actual movies.

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The driving plot was that the Republic needed to get permission from the Hutts to travel through Hutt controlled space, including Tatooine. Ergo, the Republic was not the authority there, the Hutts were.

Clearly a later retcon and not supported by the actual movies. Just like Maul didn't survive Naboo, but then did. Which is my point about the mutability of canon.

I will concede that the Clone Wars "movie" retconned what the actual movies showed, yes.

EDIT: But! The Republic also sends negotiators to Naboo to deal with the Trade Federation, because the TF was in control. That doesn't make the TF a government outside the Republic.

Just now, Stan Fresh said:

I find it blasphemous that you would include the Clone Wars theatrical release of a couple of haphazardly reworked episodes with the actual movies.

Clearly a later retcon and not supported by the actual movies. Just like Maul didn't survive Naboo, but then did. Which is my point about the mutability of canon.

I will concede that the Clone Wars "movie" retconned what the actual movies showed, yes.

Canon is canon. You can call it blasphemous all you want, but the Clone Wars was still the brain child of George Lucas, and is recognized as canon.

And on top of that, 'not supported by the actual movies'? How is this inconsistent with The Phantom Menace? The Clone Wars movie outright tells us that Tatooine is under Hutt rule and that the Republic has no sway out there. What does The Phantom Menace tell us? That Tatooine is under Hutt control and that the Republic does not exist out there. And that Republic currency is no good out there. How is that in any way inconsistent?

3 minutes ago, Underachiever599 said:

Canon is canon. You can call it blasphemous all you want, but the Clone Wars was still the brain child of George Lucas, and is recognized as canon.

That was a bit of humor, you know.

3 minutes ago, Underachiever599 said:

And on top of that, 'not supported by the actual movies'? How is this inconsistent with The Phantom Menace?

The way I've explained exhaustively.

3 minutes ago, Underachiever599 said:

The Clone Wars movie outright tells us that Tatooine is under Hutt rule and that the Republic has no sway out there.

Do you have quotes from the CW movie to back that up? Because I just had a quick look at a transcript, and there's a lot of wiggle room there.

3 minutes ago, Underachiever599 said:

What does The Phantom Menace tell us? That Tatooine is under Hutt control and that the Republic does not exist out there. And that Republic currency is no good out there. How is that in any way inconsistent?

No, it tells AND shows us that the Republic is so ineffective that it can't properly govern its outer territories.

20 minutes ago, Underachiever599 said:

Yes, and I provided evidence from one of the movies. The Clone Wars movie. The driving plot was that the Republic needed to get permission from the Hutts to travel through Hutt controlled space, including Tatooine. Ergo, the Republic was not the authority there, the Hutts were.

Just two minutes into said movie, and we get this conversation:

Palpatine: "We must help Jabba. This is the opportunity we've been looking for. The Jedi must rescue Jabba's son."

Mace: "Hmm, I don't like it. Dealing with that criminal scum. This is a dark day for the Republic."

Palpatine: "I agree, my friend. But what choice do we have? The Hutts control the Outer Rim, and we'll need their space lanes in order to move our troops."

Why would the leader of the Republic say that he's needing Hutt permission to move Republic ships through Republic space? Palpatine, the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic, is admitting that the Hutts have more authority over the Outer Rim worlds than he does, and that the Republic has to do a favor for Jabba just to have access to these hyperspace lanes, which he calls "their space lanes," basically outright saying that those lanes belong to the Hutts.

Ah, I saw the other post first.

It's another sign of how weak the Republic is. They're not talking about political borders but about having to lower themselves to deal with the criminal scum that gets things done around there. Just look at how legitimate governments sometimes have to deal with warlords and other local non-state actors in failed states and war zones in the real world, even though the governments are theoretically in charge there.

1 minute ago, Stan Fresh said:

Ah, I saw the other post first.

It's another sign of how weak the Republic is. They're not talking about political borders but about having to lower themselves to deal with the criminal scum that gets things done around there. Just look at how legitimate governments sometimes have to deal with warlords and other local non-state actors in failed states and war zones in the real world, even though the governments are theoretically in charge there.

To quote Padme here, "You assume too much." You're reading too deeply into all the statements from the movies. Movies provide us expositional dialogue so that we know what's going on. If we're told that the Hutts have control of the planet, that's because the screen writer wants us to know that the Hutts are the ones ruling that planet. If the screen writer repeatedly draws attention to the Republic not having any authority on a planet, that's to show that the planet is not under Republic control.

What more could you possibly want from them? For a character on Tatooine to just straight up say, "Yep, Tatooine definitely isn't a Republic world guys." Because that's pretty much happened, twice, in The Phantom Menace! If Republic currency is no good on that world, and a character outright states that the Republic doesn't exist on that world, then that world is not a member of the Republic. We never see Tatooine senators in the Republic Senate. We see virtually no affiliation between Tatooine and the Republic, aside from when the Republic needs assistance from Jabba the Hutt, whom they treat as the ruler of Tatooine. I just don't know how much more evidence you require before you admit that Tatooine is not a Republic world, and therefore the Jedi could not just waltz down to Tatooine and free every single slave on the planet. They didn't have the legal jurisdiction, they didn't have the manpower, and even if they did, doing so would throw Tatooine into a state of total chaos. That is what this whole debate about Tatooine's standing in the Republic was about, right? The morality of why the Jedi didn't go back to Tatooine to free all the slaves, despite Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Anakin all knowing there was slavery afoot there?

Also, I know you're only arguing from a movie standpoint, but I refuse to be restrained by such an arbitrary rule here. Never in any Legends or current canon source has Tatooine been stated to be a member of the Republic during TPM. Every Legends and canon source that I've found has been pretty adamant on Tatooine being controlled by the Hutts, in Hutt space. The Hutts are indeed their own sovereign government.

4 minutes ago, Underachiever599 said:

To quote Padme here, "You assume too much."

No, I assume very little. Namely, a little bit of intelligence on the part of the audience.

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If the screen writer repeatedly draws attention to the Republic not having any authority on a planet, that's to show that the planet is not under Republic control.

You're being way too literal here. There's more to what people say than just the surface level content of their words. Everything has context, and subtext. You're doing that thing that led to Tarkin having a medical disorder that made his body emit foul odor in the Expanded Universe because of Leia's quip about his foul stench.

Quote

Also, I know you're only arguing from a movie standpoint, but I refuse to be restrained by such an arbitrary rule here.

And I'm not going to be restrained by an arbitrary insistence on bringing in questionably coherent and made to be obsolete non-movie materials.

2 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

No, I assume very little. Namely, a little bit of intelligence on the part of the audience.

You're being way too literal here. There's more to what people say than just the surface level content of their words. Everything has context, and subtext. You're doing that thing that led to Tarkin having a medical disorder that made his body emit foul odor in the Expanded Universe because of Leia's quip about his foul stench.

And I'm not going to be restrained by an arbitrary insistence on bringing in questionably coherent and made to be obsolete non-movie materials.

Then we'll have no choice but to agree to disagree here. I see no reason to continue this debate any further, as it's quite clear that everyone is pretty adamant in their beliefs. I haven't seen a convincing argument out of you, and obviously none of my arguments have convinced you.

Okay, cool.

And with that, I'm finally going to get some sleep. It's 2:30am here. Enjoy the rest of your morning/day/evening.

3 minutes ago, Underachiever599 said:

And with that, I'm finally going to get some sleep. It's 2:30am here. Enjoy the rest of your morning/day/evening.

Thanks, you too.

On 8/30/2017 at 6:02 AM, Archlyte said:

It is essentially a far future version of what literature once referred to as a romance....

...'A LONG TIME AGO in a galaxy blah blah blahblah...'

I'm just pulling your leg... but yeah I agree with this Grey Jedi thing.. so, were there Grey Sith??? My head hurts!

It's the futurepast.

11 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

Padmé is not that stupid.

That the Republic has no power on Tatooine.

Dude, you were trying to cite FFG books of all things as canon. Let's get real.

I never said she was stupid. I said she was naive and sheltered. At the time of TPM, she has very little experience with the galaxy beyond Naboo, and believes that the Republic controls the whole galaxy. She doesn't realize that there are many worlds outside of Republic Jurisdiction. Tatooine is one of these worlds.

10 hours ago, Underachiever599 said:

There have been plenty of other people providing sources from canon that outright tell us that Tatooine is under Hutt rule . You're ignoring the evidence of almost everyone else in the forum to keep picking an argument with a single person.

@Underachiever599 is correct here. Multiple people have provided evidence to refute your claims. This isn't a matter of differences of opinion. You are flat out wrong . Tatooine is not a member of the Republic. Period.

25 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I never said she was stupid. I said she was naive and sheltered. At the time of TPM, she has very little experience with the galaxy beyond Naboo, and believes that the Republic controls the whole galaxy. She doesn't realize that there are many worlds outside of Republic Jurisdiction. Tatooine is one of these worlds.

@Underachiever599 is correct here. Multiple people have provided evidence to refute your claims. This isn't a matter of differences of opinion. You are flat out wrong . Tatooine is not a member of the Republic. Period.

My interpretation fits the movies.

By the way, where's that acknowledgement that you were wrong on the facts?

9 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

My interpretation fits the movies.

By the way, where's that acknowledgement that you were wrong on the facts?

No, it doesn't. In fact it is completely contradicted by the movies as multiple people have told you.

10 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No, it doesn't. In fact it is completely contradicted by the movies as multiple people have told you.

Said, but not demonstrated.

Still waiting to acknowledge that you were wrong about the facts earlier. Well?

15 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Said, but not demonstrated.

Still waiting to acknowledge that you were wrong about the facts earlier. Well?

Yes, we have demonstrated it with direct quotes from the movies. You are deliberately misrepresenting the facts. Multiple characters in TPM specifically establish that the Republic has no jurisdiction on Tatooine. It has no authority, it's currency is no good, and it is ruled by a completely different sovereign power that is also not part of the Republic. This is explicitly stated in the movie . The Republic is ruled by the Hutts, not the Republic, The Republic does not exist on Tatooine. Republic credits are no good on Tatooine. All of this is explicitely stated in the movie itself by multiple characters. To still claim that Tatooine is a Republic world in the face of directly contradicting evidence from the film as well as other canon sources, is willful ignorance, and a blatant misrepresentation of the facts.

I don't think Stan is going to admit to being wrong about this. It's getting on the same level as the how many days in a week thread from the bodybuilding forums.

24 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, we have demonstrated it with direct quotes from the movies. You are deliberately misrepresenting the facts. Multiple characters in TPM specifically establish that the Republic has no jurisdiction on Tatooine. It has no authority, it's currency is no good, and it is ruled by a completely different sovereign power that is also not part of the Republic. This is explicitly stated in the movie . The Republic is ruled by the Hutts, not the Republic, The Republic does not exist on Tatooine. Republic credits are no good on Tatooine. All of this is explicitely stated in the movie itself by multiple characters. To still claim that Tatooine is a Republic world in the face of directly contradicting evidence from the film as well as other canon sources, is willful ignorance, and a blatant misrepresentation of the facts.

No you haven't, and I've shown how my interpretation fits with the movies. This ends here for me.

Oh, and you're going to acknowledge that you were wrong about the slavery thing any moment now, right? I mean, that would be the honest thing to do. You don't even have to do it in bold type, normal will do.

3 minutes ago, Lanuria said:

I don't think Stan is going to admit to being wrong about this. It's getting on the same level as the how many days in a week thread from the bodybuilding forums.

Because there's nothing to admit. Nobody has been able to demonstrate where my view doesn't fit the movies.

But as I said: I'm done here. Taking things so literally just sucks the joy out of art and entertainment.

8 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

No you haven't, and I've shown how my interpretation fits with the movies. This ends here for me.

Oh, and you're going to acknowledge that you were wrong about the slavery thing any moment now, right? I mean, that would be the honest thing to do. You don't even have to do it in bold type, normal will do.

Because there's nothing to admit. Nobody has been able to demonstrate where my view doesn't fit the movies.

But as I said: I'm done here. Taking things so literally just sucks the joy out of art and entertainment.

Yes, Stan, we have, you have just willfully ignored them and misrepresented them. Your "interpretation" does not, in any way, shape, or form , fit with the movies.