1 minute ago, KungFuFerret said:

I don't know, Luke got into what, 3-4 different blaster fights with multiple squads of stormtroopers, a space fight in a gunnery seat escaping the station, and 1 snub fighter battle of epic proportions. And that's just New Hope. Nothing really Force/lightsaber related no, but still, not really a cakewalk either. I actually don't think Rey had that many straight up fights in TFA, at least not space ones, but she did have a handful of close quarters fights that I can recall, and it's implied that she had been in several all her life just to survive.

I think the bigger issue with those who think Rey is a Mary Sue is the contrast - she's better at those around or gets to expert level instantly. Luke is a decent gunner and with a rifle. Rey is a pretty good marksman 5 minutes after Han hands her a pistol (and has to remind her not to point it at him and where the safety is). I don't know that these examples are the ones usually mentioned. From what I've seen it's "She's a better mechanic than Han" and the instant Force ability.

27 minutes ago, Decorus said:

I should point out Luke learned how to mind trick people by seeing Obi Wan do it once to a group of storm troopers.

He used pull on his lightsaber with no training in that on Hoth.

So using the force to yank lightsabers into your hand seems to be something both Luke and Rei had no training in.

I'm pretty sure Rei is not a pro with a lightsaber as much as Kylo sucks at using one.

Rei knowing how to fix the Falcon is on par with Annakin being an 8 year old kid who can build droids and a podracer from spare parts like McGuvyer builds bombs from whats in his pockets.

Obviously you don't think Rey is a Mary Sue (I don't either) but you really don't know where they're coming from at all?

Luke moves his lightsaber many months if not years after A New Hope and even longer before he uses mind trick in RotJ.

You're sorta making the argument that they make: Rey is like Young Anakin + Luke ANH + Luke ESB + Luke RotJ just powered down a bit in the space of one movie.

Please show all the training Luke got as a Jedi.

A couple hours of lightsaber technique with Obiwan.

A couple days of meditation and discipline with Yoda.

Thats all the training Luke ever got.

There are no secret years of training between A New Hope and Empire and there certainly wasn't any between Empire and Return.

Luke built a lightsaber with no real help by himself thats super Mary Sue Mechanics there, because as far as we know all he had was what he remembered from seeing a couple lightsabers.

You could claim he talked with Obiwan or Yoda between those movies, but its painfully obvious in Return of the Jedi he hasn't been back to see Yoda since Empire Strikes Back.

The only way he knows how to use the Jedi Mind Trick is Obiwan used it once in front of him.

Lets face it Luke is exactly like Rei in terms of Magically being able to use the force with little to no training at all.

11 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

I think the bigger issue with those who think Rey is a Mary Sue is the contrast - she's better at those around or gets to expert level instantly. Luke is a decent gunner and with a rifle. Rey is a pretty good marksman 5 minutes after Han hands her a pistol (and has to remind her not to point it at him and where the safety is).

*shrugs* She's not a deadeye shot or anything, she missed plenty of times. And honestly shooting guns/rifles/etc isn't super difficult. To be a marksman sure, but she definitely wasn't. She missed plenty, just like Luke did, and hit sometimes, mostly while running away, also just like Luke.

12 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

From what I've seen it's "She's a better mechanic than Han" and the instant Force ability.

Well being a better mechanic than Han isn't saying much. He's actually a terrible mechanic, and a terrible charmer. People seem to forget how he kept screwing up fixing the Falcon in Empire, a plot point that continued all the way through it. My favorite example being when he was welding stuff on the top of it on Hoth and said to Chewie "Alright! Let's try it!" *Chewie flips a switch, sparks and plumes of vapor cover Han* "OFF! TURN IT OFF! TURN IT OFF!"

As to the instant Force stuff, again, we don't know if she didn't already have training, but Luke got pretty good at using the Force with hardly any hands on training from Ben. He got the hang of blind saber fighting a blaster shot in what, the 2nd attempt? He was able to use the Force to shoot a torpedo on the first try, and nobody told him how to do that, that's for sure. And then in Empire he did Force pull to get his saber without anyone teaching him how to do that. Same thing Rey did.

And also, despite my recent contribution, we've officially hijacked and derailed this thread into a Rey is/isn't a Mary Sue debate. How about we not do that? Cool? Cool.

1 hour ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Eh, how much piloting and repairing of of star ships does a scavenger do? She does have a bit of trouble getting the Falcon off the ground though.

It didn't bother me at all but I can see how some fans would roll their eyes when she's telling Han how to fix the Falcon.

Like I said, I like her (she's my favorite new character) and watching the movie for the first several times the only thing that seemed out of place was her near instant Force powers with no training. Maybe we'll get an explanation for it but it seemed just like a fairly typical JJ Abrams thing where "mysteries" are introduced that don't have answers and things happen/characters do things because they have to for the story to move forward. JJ stuck 2 or 3 movies worth of classic Star Wars stuff in just one movie so something had to give. I liked Force Awakens a lot but it does suffer from the fairly typical JJ Abrams flaws.

I don't think she really deserves the Mary Sue label as she does need help, is in wonder at the galaxy and others around her and has flaws, etc but I can certainly see where those who do think she's a Mary Sue are coming from.

Except she didn't tell Han how to fix the Falcon. She told him about the idiocy someone else did to the falcon and helped remove it. Something Han couldnt have been aware of. Since he hadnt seen the ship in a long time.

7 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Except she didn't tell Han how to fix the Falcon. She told him about the idiocy someone else did to the falcon and helped remove it. Something Han couldnt have been aware of. Since he hadnt seen the ship in a long time.

I agree with Kung Fu Ferret that we've derailed the thread. I'll just say I don't think Rey is a Mary Sue but I also don't think those who do think she is are ridiculous.

7 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

A biological condition sure, that effects a small percentage of people. It's not a behavior you can pick up and learn, to just excise emotions from your brain chemistry.

And I doubt we are trying to say that all Jedi have that biological condition.

Using humanity as a baseline for this, because that's all we can, the vast majority do have emotions, for their entire lives, and they have to deal with them in every aspect of their life.

Yes. But we also learn from this condition that people with out emotion can not make decisions. So really you don't want to be in this state. So perhaps the idea of being emotionless is one of the Jedi failures. They seem to set out for an impossible and likely undesirable goal. this set up many Jedi for failure and falling. Anakin for example. A better goal might be to be in control and understand their emotions.

1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

Yes. But we also learn from this condition that people with out emotion can not make decisions. So really you don't want to be in this state. So perhaps the idea of being emotionless is one of the Jedi failures. They seem to set out for an impossible and likely undesirable goal. this set up many Jedi for failure and falling. Anakin for example. A better goal might be to be in control and understand their emotions.

Pretty much. The Jedi Code does not forbid emotions. The point of that first passage is to not let yourself be controlled by your emotions; to always be at peace with oneself regardless of what emotion you may feel. Always be aware of your feelings but don't let them control you. That is what it means and why the version that says, " Emotion, yet peace," is much closer to the intent of the Code.

33 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Yes. But we also learn from this condition that people with out emotion can not make decisions. So really you don't want to be in this state. So perhaps the idea of being emotionless is one of the Jedi failures. They seem to set out for an impossible and likely undesirable goal. this set up many Jedi for failure and falling. Anakin for example. A better goal might be to be in control and understand their emotions.

Or perhaps people are taking the statement too literally. I mean, either none of the paragons of Jediness were actually Jedi, because they all clearly showed states of emotion, thus making the idea of Jedi moot, since technically non existed. Or it's a pretty, flowery, religiousy way of saying "Don't let your emotions guide your actions, because that will really screw the pooch".

Now seriously, which do you think is the more likely scenario? That it's a call to have your mind altered to replicate the biological malady that causes people to be sociopaths? Or that they were saying to think before you act?

6 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

Or perhaps people are taking the statement too literally. I mean, either none of the paragons of Jediness were actually Jedi, because they all clearly showed states of emotion, thus making the idea of Jedi moot, since technically non existed. Or it's a pretty, flowery, religiousy way of saying "Don't let your emotions guide your actions, because that will really screw the pooch".

Now seriously, which do you think is the more likely scenario? That it's a call to have your mind altered to replicate the biological malady that causes people to be sociopaths? Or that they were saying to think before you act?

Ummm wrong malady. Sociopaths feel emotion. They dont feel empathy. The malady i am referring to is feeling no emotion and thus beingnunable to actually decide things. My point was the state exists. Nothing more.

10 hours ago, Decorus said:

Please show all the training Luke got as a Jedi.

A couple hours of lightsaber technique with Obiwan.

A couple days of meditation and discipline with Yoda.

Thats all the training Luke ever got.

There are no secret years of training between A New Hope and Empire and there certainly wasn't any between Empire and Return.

Luke built a lightsaber with no real help by himself thats super Mary Sue Mechanics there, because as far as we know all he had was what he remembered from seeing a couple lightsabers.

You could claim he talked with Obiwan or Yoda between those movies, but its painfully obvious in Return of the Jedi he hasn't been back to see Yoda since Empire Strikes Back.

The only way he knows how to use the Jedi Mind Trick is Obiwan used it once in front of him.

Lets face it Luke is exactly like Rei in terms of Magically being able to use the force with little to no training at all.

For what it's worth, Luke actually did have years of training between A New Hope and Empire Strikes Back. And it's not any secret. This was true in Splinter of the Minds Eye, the first Expanded Universe novel from the 70's, before Empire Strikes Back was even made. The original Marvel comics that started in the 70's also showed that Luke trained religiously to teach himself how to connect with the Force the way Ben instructed him to, and to use a lightsaber. The time gap between A New Hope and Empire Strikes Back is 3 years, during which time Luke trained in the Force and with his lightsaber at every opportunity he got.

Interestingly enough, this carried over into canon as well. The books Heir to the Jedi and Weapon of a Jedi both depict Luke actively hunting for information on the Jedi within the first couple months after A New Hope. He found Jedi temples and people who knew of the Jedi from the Clone Wars in order to learn as much about the Jedi as possible, while training constantly to connect to the Force and to use his lightsaber against remotes. In Heir to the Jedi, Luke was given a lightsaber from a Jedi who had died from Order 66, and took the chance to dismantle the lightsaber and figure out how they were built. This was also the moment Luke realized telekinesis must be possible with the Force, as building a lightsaber purely with conventional tools is impossible, and he was unable to reassemble the dismantled lightsaber. From that point on, Luke began training constantly to try and move objects with the Force at every chance he got, even while eating his meals.

If you look at the current Marvel comics, which are also canon, you can see that pretty much all of Luke's time in the Rebellion was spent also learning of the Jedi. More so than what happened in Legends, actually. He frequently gets sidetracked from his duties in the Rebellion to learn about the Jedi. At one point in the comics, he is even trained by someone to use his lightsaber more effectively than he had been (and his training partners are Magnaguards. Plural). We also see Luke practicing the Jedi mind trick in the comic, and failing. This is mirrored in Star Wars Rebels, where Ezra has trouble in the first season trying to mind trick Stormtroopers. These are all canon sources which are implying that the mind trick is a difficult Force power to learn, even for Ezra, who was studying under an actual Jedi at the time. And yet Rey is able to do a mind trick on her second ever attempt.

So, suffice to say, Luke actually does have a massive amount of training between A New Hope and Empire Strikes Back (3 years' worth), and yet Rey in The Force Awakens is far more capable with the Force than Luke had been at the start of Empire Strikes Back. It should go without saying, I'm in the camp that Rey leans toward the definition of a Mary Sue. I'm fine with her piloting skill and mechanical skill for the most part, as it's easily explained by her life growing up. However, her innate mastery of the Force simply breaks the established rules of Star Wars. She was able to innately pull off a Jedi mind trick after having only recently learned that the Force is even real, with no formal training at all, while other characters like Luke and Ezra, both of whom are immensely powerful prodigies of the Force, struggled to learn it, even after having guidance from trained Jedi.

I'm really hoping this trend doesn't continue with Rey. I'm all for a strong female character, but the stakes pretty much vanished for me the moment she pulled off a mind trick with no training. I'm really hoping to see her struggle in the next movie, instead of mastering things that take other characters years to accomplish in almost no time at all. I want to like the character, but so far I haven't been able to.

And by bringing Ezra into this you completely undermine your own point.

Ezra has the ability to manipulate animals from the start of the series with zero training.

Ezra also uses the force to enhance his physical abilities without any real training.

Just like Annakin and Luke could use the force to greatly increase piloting skills and one even blew up the death star without any training in the force.

Honestly bringing the novels and comics into this means you are perfectly okay with retconning Rei into having force training and rendering your entire view point moot.

Heya everyone, sorry I'm so late the thread. I'll try and touch a few topics in summary;

On the Jedi Code - The first appearance of the Jedi code was in 1987 in the old West End Games RPG. It was written ENTIRELY for the RPG, as a simple chapter - blurb below;

On Dark Side use having physical changes - Confirmed in canon; George Lucas himself said in the commentaries and behind the story feature that the use of Anakin's eyes changing in the movies was showing when he is giving into the Dark Side - it's also why his eyes weren't always that way; they go like that as the darkness swells and fades when it subsides - revel in the dark for too long and it becomes permanent.

On the training of Luke - there was canonically 3 years between A New Hope and Empire Strikes Back, and 1 year between Empire and Jedi. The during the 3 year gap, Luke was continuing to train on his own, learning what he could by testing his powers on his own and recalling what he could from tales of the Jedi's power. Splinter of the Mind's Eye no longer being canon, we still find from the new canon comics line that he stumbled on bits of lore here and there. Canonically, we know that the heroes spent a while tracking where Han was taken, and had been preparing the assault on Jabba for about 6 months prior to going through with it - during this time Luke was studying in Obi-Wan's hut (from the novelization). Overall - he had more time than Rey, but Rey had more exposure to other Force Users (Ren) actively using powers she could try to duplicate while she was learning.

Grey Jedi - So, here is the crux of things. A lot of people have taken the idea that the Jedi are based off of Chinese Daoism, but that isn't true. This largely stems from George Lucas adopting a concept of Daoism known as "The Way" to explain the Force. Dao is the process of reality itself, the way things come together, while still transforming. All this reflects the deep seated Chinese belief that change is the most basic character of things. Dao is also the alteration of these forces, most often simply stated as yin and yang.The Daodejing teaches that humans cannot fathom the Dao, because any name we give to it cannot capture it. It is beyond what we can express in language. Those who experience oneness with dao, known as “obtaining dao,” will be enabled to wu-wei . Wu-wei is a difficult notion to translate, but most closely means “act naturally,” “effortless action,” or “nonwillful action.” The point is that there is no need for human tampering with the flow of reality. Wu-wei should be our way of life, because the dao always benefits, it does not harm; The way of heaven (dao of tian) is always on the side of good and virtue (de) comes forth from the dao alone.

On the surface, this seems like a good explanation of the Jedi - but it's not. George Lucas specifically mention "the Force has eastern influences - and the Jedi tied to them - but there are also a lot of Western influences too." One of these Western influences specifically was the Hellenistic practice of Stoicism, practiced by Romans and Greek until the 3rd century AD. The ethics of the Stoist was based around the four cardinal virtues of Wisdom, Courage, Justice, and Temperance. The ancient Stoics are often misunderstood because the terms they used pertained to different concepts in the past than they do today. The word "stoic" has come to mean "unemotional" or indifferent to pain because Stoic ethics taught freedom from "passion" by following "reason." The Stoics did not seek to extinguish emotions; rather, they sought to transform them by a resolute "askēsis" that enables a person to develop clear judgment and inner calm. Logic, reflection, and concentration were the methods of such self-discipline. Borrowing from the Cynics, the foundation of Stoic ethics is that good lies in the state of the soul itself; in wisdom and self-control. Stoic ethics stressed the rule: "Follow where reason leads." One must therefore strive to be free of the passions, bearing in mind that the ancient meaning of "passion" was "anguish" or "suffering," that is, "passively" reacting to external events, which is somewhat different from the modern use of the word. A distinction was made between pathos (plural pathe) which is normally translated as passion, propathos or instinctive reaction (e.g., turning pale and trembling when confronted by physical danger) and eupathos, which is the mark of the Stoic sage (sophos). The eupatheia are feelings that result from correct judgment in the same way that passions result from incorrect judgment. The idea was to be free of suffering through apatheia (Greek: ἀπάθεια; literally, "without passion") or peace of mind, where peace of mind was understood in the ancient sense—being objective or having "clear judgment" and the maintenance of equanimity in the face of life's highs and lows. For the Stoics, reason meant not only using logic, but also understanding the processes of nature—the logos, or universal reason, inherent in all things. Living according to reason and virtue, they held, is to live in harmony with the divine order of the universe, in recognition of the common reason and essential value of all people. It is in this belief in logos that the tie to Daoism is possible in George Lucas' idea, as there is an easy link to then associate Dao as the Force, and tie the Light to the dao of tian, and then assign the Dark side to pathos - which leads to incorrect judgments. In this, Jedi follow the dao of tian, or apatheia (Light Side) and the Sith revel in pathos (Dark Side). To further this, he reversed the four cardinal virtues, and thus created the tendencies of the Sith; Power, Self-Preservationism, Tyranny, and Rage. Add into this the martial behavior and training of the Japanese Samurai,

So what does that mean for Grey Jedi? Well, firstly, they aren't Jedi. The Jedi were (as I said) based of Stoic sages; the Sith based off of their artificially created antithesis philosophy. That means any group that develops the idea of a central way between the dao of tian (acting in harmony with the Force) and pathos (incorrect judgement) is - you guessed it - a normal person. It's smoke and mirrors. You're either trying to do good, and thus acting in accordance with dao of tian (Light Side) or you're being reckless and acting in accordance with pathos (Dark Side). To be in the middle means that you are either choosing when to give into passions and when not to, or totally acting out of ignorance and not paying the whole thing any attention at all. Here's the rub - if you are choosing when to follow the Light and the Dark consciously, then you've only got two ways to do it - logically with reason or haphazardly. If you do it logically, then guess what? You're STILL following the ideals of the Stoic sage. The only difference is if you choose that logic based on different cardinal virtues than the Stoics do - in which case you are not a Jedi, but you are still a Light Side Force User.

So essentially, there cannot be a Grey Jedi. There can be a Light Side Force User who doesn't follow the Stoic rationale, just as there can be a Dark Side Force User that doesn't follow the Sith rationale, but there cannot be a Grey "Jedi" or "Sith." If, in the new movies Luke discovers that the Jedi were wrong in adopting Stoic philosophy, and doing so resulted in the imbalance that everyone has tried to stop, then he would need to change the principles and create a new philosophy (or Force Using tradition) to do so, in essence needing the Jedi way "to end" and give room for a new, purer philosophy to take root .... but as you can see it still would be a Light Side tradition, because the alternative would essentially boil down to blindly acting on random chance. Moreover, to use the Force yet operate without regard to Wu Wei and the dao of tian would interfere in the flow of harmony of the dao, and therefore be aligned to the Dark Side so really no matter WHAT you do, you're furthering one side or the other.

Kyla, I think you have just perfectly summed up what's going to happen over the next two movies.

Kyla, w

3 hours ago, Kyla said:

Here's the rub - if you are choosing when to follow the Light and the Dark consciously, then you've only got two ways to do it - logically with reason or haphazardly. If you do it logically, then guess what? You're STILL following the ideals of the Stoic sage. The only difference is if you choose that logic based on different cardinal virtues than the Stoics do - in which case you are not a Jedi, but you are still a Light Side Force User.

Something about that doesn't make sense. The ability to decide when to be stoical and when to be emotional is not necessarily a stoic decision. There is more that goes into almost any decision than pure logic. Consider this hypothetical: a Force-sensitive man consciously decides to follow the Light and Dark, as you describe, because he neither wants to hurt the ones he loves nor separate himself from them. His decision, therefore, is both emotional and logical. I'm no expert on philosophy, mind you, this is just my two cents on this.

On ‎9‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 6:03 AM, Lordbiscuit said:

That and the key thing with darkside users is that they are usually hooked on one particular point of obsession that they usually never compromise on. Dooku's boiling arrogance, Ventresses anger, Mauls all-consuming desire for revenge, Palpatine's constant malicious nature, Vader's barely contained fury. Darkside users are usually characterised by one all consuming flaw that they are entirely captivated to follow. Dooku's biggest crime as a Sith was ever thinking that he was irreplaceable, he never once saw that he was a pawn right up to the point of execution.

My PC has obcession for a weakness, so usually when he is slipping in morality he becomes obcessed with scheming, he will often set out increasingly elaborate plans to deal with any potential problems that come up. At these times he's usually ignorent of how much collateral damage he causes, as long as he gets the goal completed.

I really like your characterization of Dark Side characters. Are you saying that you character is trending toward the dark side because of his obsession? Because that makes sense to me. Just wondering because you posted on this thread which is about Gray Jedi, but to me just sounds like your character has a struggle going on that is interesting. Ignorance to the fact that he is causing damage is no armor against consequences though I think. And the Force will react to the character accordingly. If the Obsession behavior is destructive and convenient, then the intent doesn't matter, it is dark side stuff imo.

6 hours ago, Kyla said:

Heya everyone, sorry I'm so late the thread. I'll try and touch a few topics in summary;

On the Jedi Code - The first appearance of the Jedi code was in 1987 in the old West End Games RPG. It was written ENTIRELY for the RPG, as a simple chapter - blurb below;

On Dark Side use having physical changes - Confirmed in canon; George Lucas himself said in the commentaries and behind the story feature that the use of Anakin's eyes changing in the movies was showing when he is giving into the Dark Side - it's also why his eyes weren't always that way; they go like that as the darkness swells and fades when it subsides - revel in the dark for too long and it becomes permanent.

On the training of Luke - there was canonically 3 years between A New Hope and Empire Strikes Back, and 1 year between Empire and Jedi. The during the 3 year gap, Luke was continuing to train on his own, learning what he could by testing his powers on his own and recalling what he could from tales of the Jedi's power. Splinter of the Mind's Eye no longer being canon, we still find from the new canon comics line that he stumbled on bits of lore here and there. Canonically, we know that the heroes spent a while tracking where Han was taken, and had been preparing the assault on Jabba for about 6 months prior to going through with it - during this time Luke was studying in Obi-Wan's hut (from the novelization). Overall - he had more time than Rey, but Rey had more exposure to other Force Users (Ren) actively using powers she could try to duplicate while she was learning.

Grey Jedi - So, here is the crux of things. A lot of people have taken the idea that the Jedi are based off of Chinese Daoism, but that isn't true. This largely stems from George Lucas adopting a concept of Daoism known as "The Way" to explain the Force. Dao is the process of reality itself, the way things come together, while still transforming. All this reflects the deep seated Chinese belief that change is the most basic character of things. Dao is also the alteration of these forces, most often simply stated as yin and yang.The Daodejing teaches that humans cannot fathom the Dao, because any name we give to it cannot capture it. It is beyond what we can express in language. Those who experience oneness with dao, known as “obtaining dao,” will be enabled to wu-wei . Wu-wei is a difficult notion to translate, but most closely means “act naturally,” “effortless action,” or “nonwillful action.” The point is that there is no need for human tampering with the flow of reality. Wu-wei should be our way of life, because the dao always benefits, it does not harm; The way of heaven (dao of tian) is always on the side of good and virtue (de) comes forth from the dao alone.

On the surface, this seems like a good explanation of the Jedi - but it's not. George Lucas specifically mention "the Force has eastern influences - and the Jedi tied to them - but there are also a lot of Western influences too." One of these Western influences specifically was the Hellenistic practice of Stoicism, practiced by Romans and Greek until the 3rd century AD. The ethics of the Stoist was based around the four cardinal virtues of Wisdom, Courage, Justice, and Temperance. The ancient Stoics are often misunderstood because the terms they used pertained to different concepts in the past than they do today. The word "stoic" has come to mean "unemotional" or indifferent to pain because Stoic ethics taught freedom from "passion" by following "reason." The Stoics did not seek to extinguish emotions; rather, they sought to transform them by a resolute "askēsis" that enables a person to develop clear judgment and inner calm. Logic, reflection, and concentration were the methods of such self-discipline. Borrowing from the Cynics, the foundation of Stoic ethics is that good lies in the state of the soul itself; in wisdom and self-control. Stoic ethics stressed the rule: "Follow where reason leads." One must therefore strive to be free of the passions, bearing in mind that the ancient meaning of "passion" was "anguish" or "suffering," that is, "passively" reacting to external events, which is somewhat different from the modern use of the word. A distinction was made between pathos (plural pathe) which is normally translated as passion, propathos or instinctive reaction (e.g., turning pale and trembling when confronted by physical danger) and eupathos, which is the mark of the Stoic sage (sophos). The eupatheia are feelings that result from correct judgment in the same way that passions result from incorrect judgment. The idea was to be free of suffering through apatheia (Greek: ἀπάθεια; literally, "without passion") or peace of mind, where peace of mind was understood in the ancient sense—being objective or having "clear judgment" and the maintenance of equanimity in the face of life's highs and lows. For the Stoics, reason meant not only using logic, but also understanding the processes of nature—the logos, or universal reason, inherent in all things. Living according to reason and virtue, they held, is to live in harmony with the divine order of the universe, in recognition of the common reason and essential value of all people. It is in this belief in logos that the tie to Daoism is possible in George Lucas' idea, as there is an easy link to then associate Dao as the Force, and tie the Light to the dao of tian, and then assign the Dark side to pathos - which leads to incorrect judgments. In this, Jedi follow the dao of tian, or apatheia (Light Side) and the Sith revel in pathos (Dark Side). To further this, he reversed the four cardinal virtues, and thus created the tendencies of the Sith; Power, Self-Preservationism, Tyranny, and Rage. Add into this the martial behavior and training of the Japanese Samurai,

So what does that mean for Grey Jedi? Well, firstly, they aren't Jedi. The Jedi were (as I said) based of Stoic sages; the Sith based off of their artificially created antithesis philosophy. That means any group that develops the idea of a central way between the dao of tian (acting in harmony with the Force) and pathos (incorrect judgement) is - you guessed it - a normal person. It's smoke and mirrors. You're either trying to do good, and thus acting in accordance with dao of tian (Light Side) or you're being reckless and acting in accordance with pathos (Dark Side). To be in the middle means that you are either choosing when to give into passions and when not to, or totally acting out of ignorance and not paying the whole thing any attention at all. Here's the rub - if you are choosing when to follow the Light and the Dark consciously, then you've only got two ways to do it - logically with reason or haphazardly. If you do it logically, then guess what? You're STILL following the ideals of the Stoic sage. The only difference is if you choose that logic based on different cardinal virtues than the Stoics do - in which case you are not a Jedi, but you are still a Light Side Force User.

So essentially, there cannot be a Grey Jedi. There can be a Light Side Force User who doesn't follow the Stoic rationale, just as there can be a Dark Side Force User that doesn't follow the Sith rationale, but there cannot be a Grey "Jedi" or "Sith." If, in the new movies Luke discovers that the Jedi were wrong in adopting Stoic philosophy, and doing so resulted in the imbalance that everyone has tried to stop, then he would need to change the principles and create a new philosophy (or Force Using tradition) to do so, in essence needing the Jedi way "to end" and give room for a new, purer philosophy to take root .... but as you can see it still would be a Light Side tradition, because the alternative would essentially boil down to blindly acting on random chance. Moreover, to use the Force yet operate without regard to Wu Wei and the dao of tian would interfere in the flow of harmony of the dao, and therefore be aligned to the Dark Side so really no matter WHAT you do, you're furthering one side or the other.

Thank you very much for this post. I feel that you really found the essence of the argument, and while I do feel like I agree with your thesis here, I also think that you were able to show me a different way of looking at the idea of a logical Gray Force user. I'm going to actually print this post of yours and keep it for posterity. Wonderful stuff, thank you for the effort.

23 hours ago, Nivrap said:

Something about that doesn't make sense. The ability to decide when to be stoical and when to be emotional is not necessarily a stoic decision. There is more that goes into almost any decision than pure logic. Consider this hypothetical: a Force-sensitive man consciously decides to follow the Light and Dark, as you describe, because he neither wants to hurt the ones he loves nor separate himself from them. His decision, therefore, is both emotional and logical. I'm no expert on philosophy, mind you, this is just my two cents on this.

Because one cannot consciously "choose" to follow both Light and the Dark. In the act of "choosing" to follow the Dark, you are, in fact, not acting recklessly and irrationally, you are choosing to not follow the logical path this particular time. That act of decision making is still a logical one, no matter how unformed it is, and therefore still acting in accordance with the Light, up until you realize that you cannot "choose" the Dark, and must just act as you wish when you wish, in which case you are no longer acting with any logic, and have gone Dark.

20 hours ago, Archlyte said:

Thank you very much for this post. I feel that you really found the essence of the argument, and while I do feel like I agree with your thesis here, I also think that you were able to show me a different way of looking at the idea of a logical Gray Force user. I'm going to actually print this post of yours and keep it for posterity. Wonderful stuff, thank you for the effort.

Thanks, Archlyte, I'm glad you got something out of my ramblings! I knew those philosophy classes would eventually pay off >.<

On ‎30‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 4:33 PM, DarkHorse said:

A major tenet of Buddhism is the Middle Path, "middle way of moderation, between the extremes of sensual indulgence and self-mortification" yet we still have people that would rather take the extremes. Grey sees itself as the superior path but so does Light and Dark. Grey *should* be the hardest path to tread, to not be swayed one way or the other. It is a tightrope walk in the middle of a chasm not a skip up the yellow brick road.

The difference between the philosophy and the practical in an RPG though do tend to be worlds apart, this is very true.

I feel this misses a key point of what Guatama was trying to achieve for the sake of very superficial comparisons that support a conclusion.

The Buddha sought to find a path between the indulgence of his princely birth, and the ascetisim he had practiced whilst searching for spiritual fulfilment.

Unless you think the Jedi are ascentics and the Sith indulgent aristrocracy, then you're not really finding a like for like. Moreover, the middle way still requires adherence to the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path.

The Noble Eightfold Path includes concepts like right view (actions have consequences); right resolve (contemplation, abandonment of material attachment); right conduct (not killing); right mindfulness (being present in the moment).

These are all fairly lightside goals. There's nothing grey about Buddhism; if you do not follow the tenets, your karma is impacted.

24 minutes ago, Endersai said:

I feel this misses a key point of what Guatama was trying to achieve for the sake of very superficial comparisons that support a conclusion.

The Buddha sought to find a path between the indulgence of his princely birth, and the ascetisim he had practiced whilst searching for spiritual fulfilment.

Unless you think the Jedi are ascentics and the Sith indulgent aristrocracy, then you're not really finding a like for like. Moreover, the middle way still requires adherence to the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path.

The Noble Eightfold Path includes concepts like right view (actions have consequences); right resolve (contemplation, abandonment of material attachment); right conduct (not killing); right mindfulness (being present in the moment).

These are all fairly lightside goals. There's nothing grey about Buddhism; if you do not follow the tenets, your karma is impacted.

You would have to consider the asceticism/indulgence conflict based more upon emotional urges & attachments than upon material possessions, but it could be done.

8 hours ago, Kyla said:

Because one cannot consciously "choose" to follow both Light and the Dark. In the act of "choosing" to follow the Dark, you are, in fact, not acting recklessly and irrationally, you are choosing to not follow the logical path this particular time. That act of decision making is still a logical one, no matter how unformed it is, and therefore still acting in accordance with the Light, up until you realize that you cannot "choose" the Dark, and must just act as you wish when you wish, in which case you are no longer acting with any logic, and have gone Dark.

You're implying that anyone who makes though-out, rational decisions as opposed to leaving things up to chance is following the Light. But as we see many times from Palpatine, Dooku, and Vader, Darksiders are capable of saying "Okay, I am going to do this specific thing, and I'm going to use the Dark Side to do it." The "best of both worlds" approach does not automatically fall under the jurisdiction of the Light Side (much as it does not follow the Dark Side) specifically because there is no conscious attempt to join either of the two camps. Let me try a different example to show my point, since I'm bad at explaining it. Imagine a Force-sensitive person is born who's never heard of the Jedi or the Sith. How would this person, presumably with average amounts of passion and restraint, automatically fall into either category? We've seen in recent canon that there's no natural pull towards either side of the Force (or, more accurately, there is equal pull from both), so why would Force-sensitives only ever fall into one of two die-hard camps?

1 hour ago, Nivrap said:

We've seen in recent canon that there's no natural pull towards either side of the Force (or, more accurately, there is equal pull from both), so why would Force-sensitives only ever fall into one of two die-hard camps?

I don't know about the recent canon example you're citing, but there's no reason every F-S has to fall into an extreme. It is true that every F-S is, at any particular time, aligned with the light side or the dark side, but that doesn't make them 'die-hard' adherents to the position they hold. Light side characters with Morality < 71 and dark side characters with Morality > 29 can certainly represent characters in flux or even those that make a conscious decision to walk a middle road.

3 hours ago, Nivrap said:

You're implying that anyone who makes though-out, rational decisions as opposed to leaving things up to chance is following the Light. But as we see many times from Palpatine, Dooku, and Vader, Darksiders are capable of saying "Okay, I am going to do this specific thing, and I'm going to use the Dark Side to do it." The "best of both worlds" approach does not automatically fall under the jurisdiction of the Light Side (much as it does not follow the Dark Side) specifically because there is no conscious attempt to join either of the two camps. Let me try a different example to show my point, since I'm bad at explaining it. Imagine a Force-sensitive person is born who's never heard of the Jedi or the Sith. How would this person, presumably with average amounts of passion and restraint, automatically fall into either category? We've seen in recent canon that there's no natural pull towards either side of the Force (or, more accurately, there is equal pull from both), so why would Force-sensitives only ever fall into one of two die-hard camps?

If you have no knowledge of Jedi or Sith, there is no way to be a Grey Jedi. You're making the assumption that relationship to the Force is the same as following a Jedi or Sith dogma. All people are born in harmony with Dao, Wu-Wei. As such, they all begin as a Light Side user. The "best of both worlds" approach as you put it, is making decisions in respect to the Jedi and Sith dogmas - which have no bearing on the Force at all. A person who has never heard of the Sith or Jedi still begins life in harmony with the Force as a Light Side user (this being the state of Wu Wei - or in harmony with the Dao) and only through action either impedes that harmony or not - preventing the natural flow of the Force or acting in line with it (being in dao, or Wu Wei). Impeding the natural harmony is what drives a person to the Dark Side, just as actions that are in line with the harmony "revitalize" a person and align them again with the Dao. There is no way to "decide" to use the Dark Side unless you are a proponent of one of the dogmas of Force use; in which case you then understand that there are actions which specifically further your harmony or increase your disharmony. If that dogma you are familiar with is that of a Jedi, then the merits of Hellenistic stoicism apply, and yes, according to the Jedi, making an informed decision to do something against the cardinal virtues, by act of making the thought out decision, is in fact a Light Side behavior. An example of this is Ki Adi Mundi, who had wives because of his planetary traditions. Attachment is considered to fuel one's passions, and is frowned upon, however, Ki Adi Mundi understood that this was necessary for planetary custom and therefore made a rational decision to honor his species requirements. According to Hellenistic stoicism reason meant not only using logic, but also understanding the processes of nature—the logos, or universal reason, inherent in all things. Living according to reason and virtue, they held, is to live in harmony with the divine order of the universe, which equates them (within said dogma) to the state of Wu Wei - in harmony with the Dao - and therefore was still a Light Side decision.

Anakin's decision to marry, was not one that was thought out, he reacted in each instance of its set up - first to propose it on impulse, then throw the idea away when Padme wouldn't allow it - then going through with it when she decided to change her mind. In none of these instances did he consider the options, thus driving him towards being in disharmony with the Dao. Here's the important part, however, HE WAS STILL A JEDI. Not a "grey Jedi" A JEDI. He was a Jedi that was driven away from harmony with the Dao, but he was part of a dogma in which you are only given two options - attempt to live in Harmony with the dao through stoicism and be a Jedi, or cast of harmony with the dao and be a Sith. If you felt that there was a way to live in the middle, then you were cast out of the Order, and thus not a Jedi at all. This all boils down the impossibility of being a "Grey Jedi."