11 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

They default to light to start as per the rules . After that, it's determined per the rules .

Per the rules , all characters do what their player wants unless acted upon by some external control (social skills, Force powers, fear, etc.).

I give Conflict per the rules . I do not hold off on giving it for minor transgressions, and the characters rarely do any major transgressions. That's not because of the Morality, it's because that's what they want to do.

I wouldn't necessarily say they are dumb or obstinate; some of them just go with the flow. However, thanks for trying to say that I'm doing it wrong. You just keep on fellating yourself and I'll just keep running games.

Did I say you were doing it wrong? I'm pretty sure I didn't but ok. Point is that the rules are written to support the duality of the force, not that the Force has no element of this.

I don't care what you do in your game, but in this thread we are talking about the duality of the Force and why it is that way, and not simply magic for the convenience of the characters. I just can't imagine what the character's mentality is if they have proof of something and yet still decide to ignore that because it's convenient. I guess dumb and obstinate were loaded words, but I though ignorant would have been rude. When I referred to you giving Light Side results a neutral value that was simply my assumption, because the only thing that mechanically seemed to have a value was dark side points. Sorry that this is a sore topic but I still don't understand this phenomena. Just feels like people want to not only do it their way, but insist that that is consistent with the spirit of Star Wars.

I feel I should clarify here that I don't care what anyone does in their game, fan fiction, when they play with their action figures, etc. I am talking about how the main setting seems to portray Gray Jedi, and how the whole of extra non-canon information diverges from this idea, for what I think are irresponsible reasons. I am perfectly willing to have something be a mystery, but once someone tries to answer it then it's up for debate. If The Last Jedi answers this with an affirmative, that the middle way was the best way, then I'm screwed. I have to completely re-evaluate Star Wars.

15 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

I actually don't have any problem with any of what you said, and I personally found the Rey character to be just fine. I will, however, be unhappy if the reason is revealed to be that all this time it's because no one bothered to be both good and bad at once. I feel that will nullify the Force as it has been presented.

Given my dislike of Grey Jedi concepts, I don't disagree, I was commenting specifically about your comment of her Mary Sueness due to not having any training. Which is independent of if they go the Grey route with the overall plot.

17 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

I don't think I used that thing about JJ Abrams as a bad thing, but I feel he is as successful as he is partially because he has that discipline, which Star Wars fans don't as evidenced by the bloated files of the EU. I wasn't attempting to answer any questions about Rey, but simply expressing a fear about how that might happen.

I never said the Abrams comment was a bad thing, I simply said it's not really all that different from what SW fans have been doing for decades, creating their own theories about things, that gained weight in the fandom, and eventually became "understood" canon, without actually being confirmed/approved. I mean, ALL of the EU/Legacy stuff is fan filled-in stuff regarding all the unexplained things. I personally don't have a problem with him leaving things intentionally vague, because he knows he's doing a trilogy, to allow for mystery and drama over the full narrative arc. I have an issue however, with people who decry Rey as a Mary Sue when we know full well that her background is shrouded for now, and that there could be some very good reasons for why she is able to do the stuff we see her do in TFA, despite not having it shoved in our face as justification for her actions. It's almost like the film equivalent of "Screenshots or it didn't happen" mentality of gamers. There's just no middle ground with those people, despite knowing the story is incomplete by design, because you know, there's 2 more movies full of stuff to cover.

1 hour ago, Archlyte said:

Ok so did anyone ever get orange eyes from the Dark Side of the Force?

Vader, in Rebels, had yellow/orange eyes when Ashoka cut his helmet open.

15 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Given my dislike of Grey Jedi concepts, I don't disagree, I was commenting specifically about your comment of her Mary Sueness due to not having any training. Which is independent of if they go the Grey route with the overall plot.

I never said the Abrams comment was a bad thing, I simply said it's not really all that different from what SW fans have been doing for decades, creating their own theories about things, that gained weight in the fandom, and eventually became "understood" canon, without actually being confirmed/approved. I mean, ALL of the EU/Legacy stuff is fan filled-in stuff regarding all the unexplained things. I personally don't have a problem with him leaving things intentionally vague, because he knows he's doing a trilogy, to allow for mystery and drama over the full narrative arc. I have an issue however, with people who decry Rey as a Mary Sue when we know full well that her background is shrouded for now, and that there could be some very good reasons for why she is able to do the stuff we see her do in TFA, despite not having it shoved in our face as justification for her actions. It's almost like the film equivalent of "Screenshots or it didn't happen" mentality of gamers. There's just no middle ground with those people, despite knowing the story is incomplete by design, because you know, there's 2 more movies full of stuff to cover.

Yeah and I should have recognized that as the ground that it was. I was entertained by TFA and I thought one of the strengths of the movie was how the Rey character made me feel and care about her. I don't get excited about the power thing, but I know that a lot of people do and the Mary Sue thing is almost inescapable in discussions about the character now. I think most of the hue and cry is Sith fanboys butt hurt because the bad guy lost. lol

5 minutes ago, P-Dub663 said:

Vader, in Rebels, had yellow/orange eyes when Ashoka cut his helmet open.

Thank you. So that is proof that the Dark Side is going to affect you, that it is different from the light side. To me this is like if someone tells an obvious alien they don't believe In extra-terrestrials. The proof is right there! lol The Force is good and bad and the middle. The middle can literally be so tiny as to be insignificant, or it could be its own territory where it's always Christmas and Rainbows. If its the latter the Dark Side and Light Side have been retired.

8 minutes ago, P-Dub663 said:

Vader, in Rebels, had yellow/orange eyes when Ashoka cut his helmet open.

Didn't he also have them in Revenge of the Sith? I could swear after he Took the Black, his eyes started getting an inhuman shade to them. Either walking up to the temple to kill the younglings, or on Mustafar.

12 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

I think most of the hue and cry is Sith fanboys butt hurt because the bad guy lost. lol

*snerks* then they must get upset all the time in narrative fiction. *le gasp!* The Antagonist ?! LOSING AT THE END?!?! Bedlam!! Chaos!! The entire natural order is turned on it's end!!

15 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Didn't he also have them in Revenge of the Sith? I could swear after he Took the Black, his eyes started getting an inhuman shade to them. Either walking up to the temple to kill the younglings, or on Mustafar.

It was on Mustafar, as he was butchering the Separatist leadership, that Anakin turned to face the camera and had the classic Sith yellow eyes, showing that he had indeed fallen to the dark side. He probably didn't have them during the following fight scene with Kenobi as the contacts would have hampered the actor's vision, and it was probably deemed either impractical or too expensive to CGI in the yellow eyes during post production.

2 hours ago, Archlyte said:

So that is proof that the Dark Side is going to affect you, that it is different from the light side.e latter the Dark Side and Light Side have been retired.

I would like to point out that neither Ventress nor Dooku had yellow eyes, nor did they suffer from any physical deformities. And Palpatine's eyes are, presumably, a part of the face-melting he received from Mace Windu, as he didn't have them before. Thus, in canon the only Dark-siders with yellow eyes are Maul, Vader, the Grand Inquisitor, and the Seventh Sister. It very much seems to be a case-by-case basis.

6 hours ago, Nivrap said:

I would like to point out that neither Ventress nor Dooku had yellow eyes, nor did they suffer from any physical deformities. And Palpatine's eyes are, presumably, a part of the face-melting he received from Mace Windu, as he didn't have them before. Thus, in canon the only Dark-siders with yellow eyes are Maul, Vader, the Grand Inquisitor, and the Seventh Sister. It very much seems to be a case-by-case basis.

Yes I agree. But the only reason I even referenced it because it was indeed caused by the dark side, as a symptom (as it were) of the dark side. I was trying to illustrate that the duality is not just a philosophical thing but an objective physical reality in the Star Wars universe. I only needed one proof, but I do think you guy are correct in being specific about how widespread it was (or wasn't actually).

That and the key thing with darkside users is that they are usually hooked on one particular point of obsession that they usually never compromise on. Dooku's boiling arrogance, Ventresses anger, Mauls all-consuming desire for revenge, Palpatine's constant malicious nature, Vader's barely contained fury. Darkside users are usually characterised by one all consuming flaw that they are entirely captivated to follow. Dooku's biggest crime as a Sith was ever thinking that he was irreplaceable, he never once saw that he was a pawn right up to the point of execution.

My PC has obcession for a weakness, so usually when he is slipping in morality he becomes obcessed with scheming, he will often set out increasingly elaborate plans to deal with any potential problems that come up. At these times he's usually ignorent of how much collateral damage he causes, as long as he gets the goal completed.

On 8/31/2017 at 8:22 AM, KungFuFerret said:

But it's biologically impossible for living beings to be without emotion. Despite the colorful wording with it's "deepening" meaning, I think it's more to imply that you don't let your emotions rule your judgement. That you take time to think about your actions before doing them, to make sure you aren't acting rashly, impulsively. To try and imply that being a Jedi somehow purges you of emotions is just silly. That's not how organics work.

Plus, that's not how the Paragon Jedi we see even act? We see Yoda cracking jokes, and cackling like a mad little muppet all the time. We see Obi-Wan making jokes with Anakin, and Qui-Gon showing annoyance with the Council when they deny Anakin as his Padawan. We see Yoda show annoyance at Obi-Wan's ghost, and we hear straight from Yoda that they reacted out of fear, when they agreed to fight in the Clone War. You know, they let their emotions guide their actions, against the first tenant of the Code, almost like it's there to warn people not to do that, because it can lead to mistakes.

So no, a "true" Jedi isn't an emotionless Vulcan, heck even VULCANS aren't emotionless Vulcans, they just leash their emotions under logic, but it's just a restraint.

Not true. There are people without emotion. It is a condition. And they can't decide things.

2 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Not true. There are people without emotion. It is a condition. And they can't decide things.

A biological condition sure, that effects a small percentage of people. It's not a behavior you can pick up and learn, to just excise emotions from your brain chemistry.

And I doubt we are trying to say that all Jedi have that biological condition.

Using humanity as a baseline for this, because that's all we can, the vast majority do have emotions, for their entire lives, and they have to deal with them in every aspect of their life.

Why do people call Rei a Mary Sue when Luke blew up the Death Star using the Force with zero training?

Seriously a few hours playing with a robot is not actual training.

A few days with Yoda is not really training.

Luke has super amazing piloting and gunnery abilities along with the ability to use the force which he has zero reason to have if you follow the same logic as Rei.

The only real difference between Rei and Luke is one is a girl and the other is a boy.

2 hours ago, Decorus said:

Why do people call Rei a Mary Sue when Luke blew up the Death Star using the Force with zero training?

Seriously a few hours playing with a robot is not actual training.

A few days with Yoda is not really training.

Luke has super amazing piloting and gunnery abilities along with the ability to use the force which he has zero reason to have if you follow the same logic as Rei.

The only real difference between Rei and Luke is one is a girl and the other is a boy.

I like Rey as a character but she's way more capable than Luke. I don't know if she's solidly in Mary Sue territory but she's a lot better than Luke.

The ONLY thing Luke is good at is piloting. And he had some actual (minimal) Force training and the guidance of his Master (in spirit form) to make an "impossible shot". Luke can also shoot stormtroopers, just as well as anyone else around him. Luke gets taken out by Tusken Raiders.

Rey is an expert martial artist so maybe that translates into using a lightsaber well? She's also a decent pilot - though they do show her struggling with the Falcon at first. And she's an expert mechanic who's able at a glance figure out how the Falcon's been modified and tells Han Solo how to fix his own ship (which Han has a bad track record at doing himself). Rey also basically teaches herself how to use the Force by a motivational speech by Maz and observing Kylo Ren - she teaches herself how to mind trick a guard, move a lightsaber and to fight with a lightsaber with the Force.

You can add some explanations to some of these. Sure she beat Kylo Ren because he was injured and trying to capture her instead of kill her, etc.

In my opinion this isn't so much Rey being a Mary Sue so much as JJ Abrams writes himself into corners and so has his characters "magic" their way out of it.

6 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

I like Rey as a character but she's way more capable than Luke. I don't know if she's solidly in Mary Sue territory but she's a lot better than Luke.

The ONLY thing Luke is good at is piloting. And he had some actual (minimal) Force training and the guidance of his Master (in spirit form) to make an "impossible shot". Luke can also shoot stormtroopers, just as well as anyone else around him. Luke gets taken out by Tusken Raiders.

Rey is an expert martial artist so maybe that translates into using a lightsaber well? She's also a decent pilot - though they do show her struggling with the Falcon at first. And she's an expert mechanic who's able at a glance figure out how the Falcon's been modified and tells Han Solo how to fix his own ship (which Han has a bad track record at doing himself). Rey also basically teaches herself how to use the Force by a motivational speech by Maz and observing Kylo Ren - she teaches herself how to mind trick a guard, move a lightsaber and to fight with a lightsaber with the Force.

You can add some explanations to some of these. Sure she beat Kylo Ren because he was injured and trying to capture her instead of kill her, etc.

In my opinion this isn't so much Rey being a Mary Sue so much as JJ Abrams writes himself into corners and so has his characters "magic" their way out of it.

Well, to be fair, Her skills at hand-to-hand combat, mechanics, and piloting are pretty well explained in the movie and in the supplemental materials, and are pretty appropriate, given her upbringing. As a scavenger in a hostile environment , such as Jakku, she'd need to have good mechanical and piloting skills, as well as be able to handle herself in a fight. Luke had it relatively easy growing up compared to Rey.

I also think it's a lot to do with the movie's style, Episode 4-6 are movies from an entirely different era and technology base, and story style. Luke was a gifted prodigy that picked up things quickly and I get the impression that learning the force isn't necessarily hard; it was about belief, heritage (e.g. picked for destiny) and the sort. In the very first movie they explained nothing about Luke aside from the life he lived now, same as Rey. We only found out he was related to Vader right at the end of the second movie. She's a good scavnger while Luke had an established niche as a genius pilot.

Sure, The Force Awakens has a bit I don't like; I really dislike how the entire first 15 minutes was entirely about Luke and no mention was given to the station prior to it's awakening and that large segments of the movie was essentially a fairly large repeat of a new hope blow for blow. But Rey's indicated experience with the force wasn't one. Though I found Finn a more relatable character throughout the movie for reasons I don't entirely understand.

2 hours ago, Decorus said:

Why do people call Rei a Mary Sue when Luke blew up the Death Star using the Force with zero training?

The only real difference between Rei and Luke is one is a girl and the other is a boy.

At it's core, that's pretty much the reason Rey gets such vitriol aimed her way while Luke gets a free pass.

Granted, we don't really know Rey's full backstory, so it's quite possible there's a very good reason why she appeared to be far more capable than Luke with regards to the Force.

Then again, she grew up hearing stories about Luke and the Jedi, even if they were just "old spacer's tales" where Luke grew up in a pretty secluded environment during a time when talking about the Force much less the Jedi could get you arrested for treason and sedition by the ruling government. To say nothing of Rey having extensive melee combat experience thanks to her staff, while Luke grew up in a much safer environment without the need for such skill; I'm not sure what version of TFA some of the Rey-haters were watching, but she was far from being any kind of pro with Anakin's lightsaber, especially when compared to RotJ Luke or even post-Dagobah ESB Luke, much less the Jedi of the Prequels.

Of course, Luke didn't get into the sort of jams that Rey did either, and by the time he had reason to get into a fight wielding just his lightsaber, he'd already undergone training. But I'd be willing to bet that Luke would also be a prodigy with a lightsaber in ANH given his status as the principle hero of the original trilogy, much as Rey is the principle hero of the sequel trilogy. After all, it's a long standing storytelling tradition that being the hero of the story tends to grant one substantial privileges.

3 minutes ago, LordBritish said:

Though I found Finn a more relatable character throughout the movie for reasons I don't entirely understand.

A combination of John Boyega's performance, his chemistry with Poe and their buddy buddy relationship humanizing him right at the start. His semi-role as audience insert for a lot of what's going on, as we see the things for the first time, as Finn is experiencing them too. Things like that are why you identified with Finn more.

Plus, I think he's just a better actor than Daisy. Not saying she's bad, but, she's clearly new to acting in comparison, plus, her tendency to snarl, and just show off all of her teeth in a rictus grin when she was doing action stuff was somewhat offputting for me personally.

19 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Well, to be fair, Her skills at hand-to-hand combat, mechanics, and piloting are pretty well explained in the movie and in the supplemental materials, and are pretty appropriate, given her upbringing. As a scavenger in a hostile environment , such as Jakku, she'd need to have good mechanical and piloting skills, as well as be able to handle herself in a fight. Luke had it relatively easy growing up compared to Rey.

Eh, how much piloting and repairing of of star ships does a scavenger do? She does have a bit of trouble getting the Falcon off the ground though.

It didn't bother me at all but I can see how some fans would roll their eyes when she's telling Han how to fix the Falcon.

Like I said, I like her (she's my favorite new character) and watching the movie for the first several times the only thing that seemed out of place was her near instant Force powers with no training. Maybe we'll get an explanation for it but it seemed just like a fairly typical JJ Abrams thing where "mysteries" are introduced that don't have answers and things happen/characters do things because they have to for the story to move forward. JJ stuck 2 or 3 movies worth of classic Star Wars stuff in just one movie so something had to give. I liked Force Awakens a lot but it does suffer from the fairly typical JJ Abrams flaws.

I don't think she really deserves the Mary Sue label as she does need help, is in wonder at the galaxy and others around her and has flaws, etc but I can certainly see where those who do think she's a Mary Sue are coming from.

I should point out Luke learned how to mind trick people by seeing Obi Wan do it once to a group of storm troopers.

He used pull on his lightsaber with no training in that on Hoth.

So using the force to yank lightsabers into your hand seems to be something both Luke and Rei had no training in.

I'm pretty sure Rei is not a pro with a lightsaber as much as Kylo sucks at using one.

Rei knowing how to fix the Falcon is on par with Annakin being an 8 year old kid who can build droids and a podracer from spare parts like McGuvyer builds bombs from whats in his pockets.

Just now, Jedi Ronin said:

Eh, how much piloting and repairing of of star ships does a scavenger do? She does have a bit of trouble getting the Falcon off the ground though.

It didn't bother me at all but I can see how some fans would roll their eyes when she's telling Han how to fix the Falcon.

Like I said, I like her (she's my favorite new character) and watching the movie for the first several times the only thing that seemed out of place was her near instant Force powers with no training. Maybe we'll get an explanation for it but it seemed just like a fairly typical JJ Abrams thing where "mysteries" are introduced that don't have answers and things happen/characters do things because they have to for the story to move forward. JJ stuck 2 or 3 movies worth of classic Star Wars stuff in just one movie so something had to give. I liked Force Awakens a lot but it does suffer from the fairly typical JJ Abrams flaws.

I don't think she really deserves the Mary Sue label as she does need help, is in wonder at the galaxy and others around her and has flaws, etc but I can certainly see where those who do think she's a Mary Sue are coming from.

A lot actually, and you see her in action at the beginning of the film, working her way through that downed Star Destroyer, looking for the best parts, and removing them without destroying them in the process. That shows excellent mechanical knowledge and skill. According to the novelizations and other sources, she also spent quite a bit of time training in a simulator she had fixed up, learning to pilot ships that way, and she does drive that huge speeder bike of hers.

40 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Of course, Luke didn't get into the sort of jams that Rey did either, and by the time he had reason to get into a fight wielding just his lightsaber, he'd already undergone training. But I'd be willing to bet that Luke would also be a prodigy with a lightsaber in ANH given his status as the principle hero of the original trilogy, much as Rey is the principle hero of the sequel trilogy. After all, it's a long standing storytelling tradition that being the hero of the story tends to grant one substantial privileges.

I don't know, Luke got into what, 3-4 different blaster fights with multiple squads of stormtroopers, a space fight in a gunnery seat escaping the station, and 1 snub fighter battle of epic proportions. And that's just New Hope. Nothing really Force/lightsaber related no, but still, not really a cakewalk either. I actually don't think Rey had that many straight up fights in TFA, at least not space ones, but she did have a handful of close quarters fights that I can recall, and it's implied that she had been in several all her life just to survive.

5 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

A lot actually, and you see her in action at the beginning of the film, working her way through that downed Star Destroyer, looking for the best parts, and removing them without destroying them in the process. That shows excellent mechanical knowledge and skill. According to the novelizations and other sources, she also spent quite a bit of time training in a simulator she had fixed up, learning to pilot ships that way, and she does drive that huge speeder bike of hers.

The novel may very well have a good explanation of how she trained to be a good pilot (I didn't read it) but scavenging parts is very different than actually fixing something much less a vehicle which she doesn't own (maybe she worked as a mechanic for Unkar so she had regular access to a star ship?).

Sure, a scavenger would be good at fixing some things just to survive but there isn't really a Mechanics skill where you're just as skilled at repairing an starship engine as you are at fixing a droid or a constructing a rifle. So she hops on the Falcon and within seconds is a mechanical expert in it's operation, so much so that she can tell Han how to fix his own ship. I think JJ wanted Han and Rey to have a certain relationship (one where he respected her and offered to be somewhat of a mentor) and so needed a quick way to establish it and Rey's "hey I'm a big help in a crisis on your ship" does that well. I think it's good storytelling but I can see how it was done would rankle some fans. In contrast Luke - who actually had a similar level of mechanical experience to Rey and actually had hours in the cockpit of a flying vehicle - was annoying to Han when escaping Tatooine (the whole bit about Luke being nervous and the indicator light flashing).

Piloting a car is much different than piloting a fighter jet. But this is Star Wars so such a leap isn't crazy but still there's a difference there - Luke had access to a Skyhopper so the leap from "Flying a Cesna" to "Flying a starfighter" isn't as big. I didn't find it that unusual but I can see how others would.

Like I said, I don't think Rey gets up to Mary Sue territory, but those who do point out it's the whole constellation of how many things she's expert at. Some have good explanations - even if not offered in the film - and some don't (yet, maybe there's a good explanation why she could pick up varied force abilities so quickly).