I think we need a clean clarification here, due to how certain cards are texted and how mechanics works.

1) My first questions is - when certain ring is referenced in card text - Does this refer to the THE ring itself or to A ring carrying that element?

What I have in mind is as currently Phoenix have Seeker of the Void. If Isawa Kaede is participating in Fire/Air/Ring/Earth challenge she adds the Void Element (and resolve effect) to the ring. Will then Seeker Initiate trigger when you claim the ring?

2) Same situation but with Seeker of Knowledge. She adds water element to the ring and then you decide which to resolve. Will the ring be considered water for all card reference purposes? Or it needs to resolve the Water effect of the two options? Or not at all?

3) Is it possible for a ring to carry more than once instance of element , hence resolving the effect more than once?

For example again Isawa Kaede with Void Ring will remove 1 Fate? Or 2 Fate?
There is no clear indication in the RRG that a Ring can carry only a single instance of an element ( or that it's binary).

My inclination on the first two is that they don't work. You claim the earth ring (for example) and it also has the void element. It is still the earth ring. I can see the case for the other interpretation, so hopefully we can get an official answer.

For the last one, the RR says this on page 14 under ring effects:

Quote

Each time a player wins a conflict as the attacking player, he or she may resolve the ring effect associated with the contested ring’s element.

So that sounds to me as if you can have a double void ring, but you still only resolve it once. The ring effect is not the same as the element. The element on the ring determines which ring effect you are allowed to resolve.

If you attack with Isawa Kaede and a Seeker of Air for, lets say, ring of fire.

The ring of fire gains the Void element and the Air element respectfully. So the fire ring also has the void and air elements attached.

Then, if you win you may do three things.

1. Resolve only the fire element through the rulebook reaction.

2. Through the Seeker of Air you may choose which ring element to resolve, you have the choice of Fire (because its the fire ring), Air (because Seeker gives it the air element), and Void (because Kaede give it the void element). So you can pick which one you want to go off,

3. You use Isawa Kaede to allow you to resolve all of the ring's effects, which now currently include the Fire effect, the Air effect and the Void effect. So you get to utilize all three effects with her as the Fire ring now has three elements attached to it.

Obviously you want to resolve Kaede to get all three effects, but that is how that interaction works.

38 minutes ago, TheItsyBitsySpider said:

If you attack with Isawa Kaede and a Seeker of Air for, lets say, ring of fire.

The ring of fire gains the Void element and the Air element respectfully. So the fire ring also has the void and air elements attached.

Then, if you win you may do three things.

1. Resolve only the fire element through the rulebook reaction.

2. Through the Seeker of Air you may choose which ring element to resolve, you have the choice of Fire (because its the fire ring), Air (because Seeker gives it the air element), and Void (because Kaede give it the void element). So you can pick which one you want to go off,

3. You use Isawa Kaede to allow you to resolve all of the ring's effects, which now currently include the Fire effect, the Air effect and the Void effect. So you get to utilize all three effects with her as the Fire ring now has three elements attached to it.

Obviously you want to resolve Kaede to get all three effects, but that is how that interaction works.

The question is not which effect you get to resolve. The question is: Did you claim the Air or Void rings for the purposes of cards like Keeper/Seeker Initiate? That ability says " After you claim a ring that matches the element of your role...".

On the one hand you actually claimed the fire ring, but on the other hand it also had void and air elements.

None of these effects have changed the ring for the declared conflict. You're claiming the ring that was declared or is the ring that resulted after ring swapping effects. The one that is physically on the province in question. You have the opportunity to resolve other rings effects, but that doesn't change what ring is claimed.

7 minutes ago, Malraza said:

None of these effects have changed the ring for the declared conflict. You're claiming the ring that was declared or is the ring that resulted after ring swapping effects. The one that is physically on the province in question. You have the opportunity to resolve other rings effects, but that doesn't change what ring is claimed.

This^

In my example, it is the FIRE ring, that also has the elements of void and air. It doesn't become the FIRE/AIR/VOID ring, it just has multiple elements attached. It would be just claiming the Fire Ring, then resolving the element effects it has.

I'm hoping for an official answer here as imo the case can go for both sides.

If it's the way you describe it , picking Seeker of Void while u are getting Isawa Kaede ( for whom Void ring is the worst ring ) ... seems like the worst option :\

11 minutes ago, Dydra said:

I'm hoping for an official answer here as imo the case can go for both sides.

If it's the way you describe it , picking Seeker of Void while u are getting Isawa Kaede ( for whom Void ring is the worst ring ) ... seems like the worst option :\

You won't get an official answer on these forums. You can submit the question here and get an eventual response . If you do, please post the answer so others can know.

Seeker of the Void is desirable because of the ability to field two of the fantastic Void provinces, not in the minor depowering of Kaede that may or may not ever come up in a game, particularly if you're intelligently planning and swapping what rings are at what conflicts and getting claimed.

You play seeker of void so you can run Shameful Display and Kuroi Mori, nothing else really matters after that.

Kaede is still one of the most powerful characters in the game no matter what the role is.

53 minutes ago, Dydra said:

I'm hoping for an official answer here as imo the case can go for both sides.

If it's the way you describe it , picking Seeker of Void while u are getting Isawa Kaede ( for whom Void ring is the worst ring ) ... seems like the worst option :\

The roles will change in November after worlds, so it won't matter for long. It will hurt a little bit if the expansion releases before the tournament, but as others have said, the province bonus will work well for the Phoenix.

According to RRG in the Declaring Attack department

Quote

Declare the type and element of the conflict to be initiated. This is indicated by selecting a ring from the unclaimed ring pool (this ring is known as the contested ring, and defines the element of the conflict), and placing it on an opponent’s eligible unbroken province...

You declare Element (not a ring) ... hence no reason they to be considered different items. In fact the ring itself is a representation of the element. Therefore a void Element would make a ring Void as well.

I have already sent out a question via the form. Hoping to confirm officially.

37 minutes ago, Dydra said:

According to RRG in the Declaring Attack department

You declare Element (not a ring) ... hence no reason they to be considered different items. In fact the ring itself is a representation of the element. Therefore a void Element would make a ring Void as well.

I have already sent out a question via the form. Hoping to confirm officially.

Your supporting citation is both an RPG, rather than a card game, and was made by a different company. I'm not finding persuasive support there.

5 minutes ago, Malraza said:

Your supporting citation is both an RPG, rather than a card game, and was made by a different company. I'm not finding persuasive support there.

Lol what? He's taking about the Rules Reference for THIS GAME. RRG = Rules Reference Guide.

28 minutes ago, Malraza said:

Your supporting citation is both an RPG, rather than a card game, and was made by a different company. I'm not finding persuasive support there.

If the comment above isn't obvious. Open this https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/13/c8/13c8b61a-40f1-4d69-afcb-f2bd8a148106/l5c01-rulesreference_cc2017.pdf and read point 3.2. of the game's Framework "Declare a Conflict".

If that isn't grounded enough for you in this game and universe, I don't know what is ...

Elements are elements, rings are actual tokens that are named. The Fire Ring has the fire element inherently. The very wording of Seeker of Air shows that you can add elements to rings, not change the actual ring token.

When you declare a conflict over a element, like the fire element, you place the fire ring down. That is the only ring you are fighting over. You can give it more elements for the duration of the fight, but if you win with Seeker and choose to resolve the Fire ring's air effect, because it has the air element, it never suddenly becomes the "Fire and Air" ring, it becomes "the Fire ring that has the elements of fire and air on it". The Air Ring isn't what is placed on the opponent's province and after the combat you claim the fire ring, your just choosing a different effect that you have given it.

You get to activate the elements you give to the ring, but that never makes the Fire ring not the Fire Ring, You are claiming the fire ring and activating its air element ability.

The very fact that Seeker adds elements instead of switches the physical ring, shows that elements and rings aren't tied together as the same thing, they are different.

3 hours ago, TheItsyBitsySpider said:

Elements are elements, rings are actual tokens that are named. The Fire Ring has the fire element inherently. The very wording of Seeker of Air shows that you can add elements to rings, not change the actual ring token.

When you declare a conflict over a element, like the fire element, you place the fire ring down. That is the only ring you are fighting over. You can give it more elements for the duration of the fight, but if you win with Seeker and choose to resolve the Fire ring's air effect, because it has the air element, it never suddenly becomes the "Fire and Air" ring, it becomes "the Fire ring that has the elements of fire and air on it". The Air Ring isn't what is placed on the opponent's province and after the combat you claim the fire ring, your just choosing a different effect that you have given it.

You get to activate the elements you give to the ring, but that never makes the Fire ring not the Fire Ring, You are claiming the fire ring and activating its air element ability.

The very fact that Seeker adds elements instead of switches the physical ring, shows that elements and rings aren't tied together as the same thing, they are different.

Well, my argument is grounded on RRG, yours is grounded on interpratation and until FFG, FAQ or RRG says otherwise, I'm not inclined to agree to read this the way you suggest ...

4 minutes ago, Dydra said:

Well, my argument is grounded on RRG, yours is grounded on interpratation and until FFG, FAQ or RRG says otherwise, I'm not inclined to agree to read this the way you suggest ...

So is mine, everything I just said is shown not only in the RRG but also with the literal application of Seeker or Air and Isawa Kaede's rules texts.

Seeker or Air and Kaede specifically state they add the element to the contested ring, so the Ring of Fire gains the Air element or the void element. It doesn't change the ring, otherwise it would specify it like Elemental Fury does.

So the fire ring gains the elements, but is still the contested ring.

This is the rules as directly written.

14 minutes ago, Dydra said:

Well, my argument is grounded on RRG, yours is grounded on interpratation and until FFG, FAQ or RRG says otherwise, I'm not inclined to agree to read this the way you suggest ...

It seems like you skipped the part about "Rings" and "Ring Effects"

There is very clearly a distinction between declaring the ring for the conflict and the effects of the ring based on the elemement(s) the ring has.

13 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

It seems like you skipped the part about "Rings" and "Ring Effects"

There is very clearly a distinction between declaring the ring for the conflict and the effects of the ring based on the elemement(s) the ring has.

and it seems like you skipped the part about "Declaring Conflict"

It very clearly says that you declare an ELEMENT, NOT a ring. Hence the point for my argument.

Ring Effect is a separate thing. It's the "clam effect" based on the Ring/Element which you choose.

I was wondering on these myself. The only one I'm fairly certain of is 2. "When you claim a ring that matches the element of your role" is comparing the ring title. If it were comparing the elements attached to it, then it would say "when you claim a ring with an element that matches your role. "

The ring of earth is a title, it has the earth element attached to it. Adding water or void elements to that ring does not change which ring it is.

1 depends on the context. If you have some examples that show more ambiguity please share, but for seeker / keeper initiate I'm certain is the ring by title, not by the elements the ring possesses.

3 - this is one where we have no clue... i wasn't able to find a satisfactory answer myself. I'm interested to know the answer. It would certainly give Kaede more power if you can have double void, or double air with seeker of knowledge...

But because it's s phoenix thing, i suspect the answer is no :/ can't give the bloodspeakers amy fun toys..

Keeper of ________ : trigger after you win a Elemental Conflict. So I would guess that a Ring with multiple Elements would trigger off of this because you are winning that Conflict.

But the Keeper and Seeker Initiates trigger when you Claim a Ring that matches your Seeker/Keeper Role. I would guess no, your Inititates would not trigger because you are not Claiming a Ring of your chosen Role.

Although, what matches what? Rings don't actually have titles, and roles don't have elements...

3 hours ago, Dydra said:

and it seems like you skipped the part about "Declaring Conflict"

It very clearly says that you declare an ELEMENT, NOT a ring. Hence the point for my argument.

Ring Effect is a separate thing. It's the "clam effect" based on the Ring/Element which you choose.

Actually, I did read it. I went to 3.2 of the framework and reviewed the information you are refererring to first.

"Declare the type and the element of the conflict to be initiated. This is indicated by selecting a Ring (.......and defines the element of the conflict),........."

3.2.6 resolve ring effects

3.2.7 claim ring

To understand what that means, we must read the definition on what a Ring and Ring Effects are. Then I located the definition of what those two things mean. The rulebook had a separate definition for a Ring and a Ring Effect which makes it very clear to me that adding elements to a Ring will not change the type of Ring that is being claimed but will change which Ring Effects you can resolve.

Yes at 3.2 you choose an Element based I'm the ring you selected. By the time you get to resolve ring effects in 3.2.6 there may have been cards played that alter which Ring Effect you can resolve. However this does not change which Ring you claim in 3.2.7 as that is determined by the ring you selected. If an effect like Elemental Fury would change the ring type, it also changes the ring effect, but adding ring effects do not change the ring itself.

If there is some other part you are referring to, please point it out. I wasn't being snarky with my post I was simply pointing out an area of the rules that may help you understand this better. But if I'm mistaken please show me the part in the rules you are referring to that I missed.