So, the meta right now in the big tournaments seem to be dominated by 2 ships and 4 ship Biggs lists. Coming up with something that's good against both these, and the random lists, is definitely a bit of a challenge.

The TIE Defender though is possibly one answer. It's pricey, but with the double tap ability, and with Relentlessness, it would do cruel things to Biggs and company. A Flechette cannon or ion cannon isn't a bad way to slow down Nym and Miranda.

The TIE Defender can take a couple of hits and keep going.

If one wanted, you could pile in a few named pilots that are still talked about on the Imperial side... Omega Leader and Quickdraw fit into a list with top TIE Defender pilots.

Thoughts? Or have I completely missed something obvious?

Maybe the new cannons which will going to come with Gunboat can give new life/uses to Tie/D

I like Rexlar Brath paired with Ryad:

Ryad-x7

Brath-TIE/D-Ion Cannon-Predator

Valen Rudor

Total Points:100

I've been thinking the same thing. Lately I've had lists kitted out with Maarek Stele Tie D with Ion and A score to settle. Tough thing is its hard to justify that ship instead of Whisper at 38 points (Whisper/ACD/VI/Intel agent) I'd bet that Maarek could single handedly take down a Miranda or a Nym...

But it always comes down to wingmates. I really like the Palp Aces archetype, but I just can't find the right wingmate for Maarek.

I also tried this list and its not horrible (Imagine Lana Kane going noooooOOOOOOOOoope nope nope):
Vessery/TieD/Ruthlessness/Ion Cannon
Carnor Jax/PTL/AT/RGT/TC
Omega Leader/Comm Relay/Juke

I had a similar thought at the European Championships. I expected to (and did) face a lot of hight health/low agility ships, including some incredibly annoying pilots like Miranda and Norra.

K-Wings, ARCs, Y-Wings, the Falcon, the Ghost, Upsilons, the Scurgg, the YV-666, the Auzituck, Decimators, X-Wings, even the JM5K - pretty much anything with 2 agility or less - can be considered prey for ships running Ion Cannons, and once you take away their manueverability, they lose a lot of their threat value.

Or so I thought. I took Triple Defenders - two Ion Cannon deltas and an x7 Ace. And the only games I won in the entire tournament were against - wait for it - x7 Defenders. Go figure.

Even with the second shot, the TIE Defender's damage output is... not great. I was facing boosted Homing Missiles from Miranda, boosted primaries from Rey, Bossk/HLC, Dengar and Quickdraw with their revenge shots... add to that needing to block in a lot of cases to get a shot and you can find yourself being burned down faster than your opponent.

That's not to say the idea is without value; a lot of the games I played were very close run things, and the Ion Cannons definitely did cause issues for my opponents when I faced Miranda etc, and the double tap also helped strip tokens for the second shot. The problem in a lot of the cases was getting the kill shot in before your opponent got the kill shot on you.

Another question is what do you run alongside them?

The Defender's problem is already dice mods - it's paying points for 3 red dice and 3 green dice but those dice aren't worth the points investment unless you can solidly mod them.

When you take a /D Defender over a /x7 Defender you're exacerbating the problem by removing a dice mod (Evade) and adding 3 more red dice you need to support and modify. The Focus token that you didn't need to spend on defense with/x7 now has to go on your green dice, so even with the upgrade to 6 red dice not 3 your damage output can actually go down!

Colonel Vessery is the only TIE/D pilot I would normally consider.

Crazy showerthought:

Delta Squadron Pilot (30)
Ion Cannon (3)
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)
TIE/D (0)

Delta Squadron Pilot (30)
Tractor Beam (1)
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)
TIE/D (0)

Delta Squadron Pilot (30)
Flechette Cannon (2)
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)
TIE/D (0)

Total: 99

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

Built against 1agi ships.
First tractor, then ion and then stress. Plus a primary each. That's 2+0-9 damage, followed by a turn where he just won't get away. Nym won't boost away, he won't barrel roll away. He will just go 1 forward, which means no bomb can hit you if you shot from range 3. behind him, or anywhere frontal.

I'll echo that at the moment Vessery is really the only contender since he can mod both shots for free. Even then he is, as he's always been, a glass cannon that can too easily be taken out by variance before he nets his cost.

As far as Ruthlessness goes, it's a neat EPT and great against FSR but it ends up hurting you in other matchups. Denym only has 2 ships and both want to be up close to you so there's an excellent chance that you end up having to skip a shot at least once per game to avoid being a little too ruthless. Remember you must activate it if you shoot, even if that means damaging your own ship.

4 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Crazy showerthought:

Delta Squadron Pilot (30)
Ion Cannon (3)
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)
TIE/D (0)

Delta Squadron Pilot (30)
Tractor Beam (1)
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)
TIE/D (0)

Delta Squadron Pilot (30)
Flechette Cannon (2)
Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)
TIE/D (0)

Total: 99

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

Built against 1agi ships.
First tractor, then ion and then stress. Plus a primary each. That's 2+0-9 damage, followed by a turn where he just won't get away. Nym won't boost away, he won't barrel roll away. He will just go 1 forward, which means no bomb can hit you if you shot from range 3. behind him, or anywhere frontal.

Jam/Ion/Flechette once Gunboat drops.

Triple PS1 defenders seems like a neat idea until you remember that defenders are SUPER predictable and easy to dodge.

Just now, thespaceinvader said:

Jam/Ion/Flechette once Gunboat drops.

Triple PS1 defenders seems like a neat idea until you remember that defenders are SUPER predictable and easy to dodge.

Of course, the gunboat!

Sure it's predictable. My question is: can it kill Nym in 2 turns? I'd expect it to, and those 2 turns will be relatively safe from these 40+ points. Unless TLT of course. So the counterpoint would be that predictable is no problem as long as half the enemy list is ionized and has no way to react anyways. Unless you're talking about different lists, the wingman or even simply the approach before the first round of shots - you're completely right in all of those.

6 minutes ago, Makaze said:

Even then [Vessery] is, as he's always been, a glass cannon

How far we've come that Vessery is considered to be a glass cannon...

5 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Jam/Ion/Flechette once Gunboat drops.

Triple PS1 defenders seems like a neat idea until you remember that defenders are SUPER predictable and easy to dodge.

I've ran trip cannon Defenders and its okay, but to echo it doesn't do well against anything that doesn't need to straight joust you to work. Pretty good against Biggs, but not a lot else.

12 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

Even with the second shot, the TIE Defender's damage output is... not great. I was facing boosted Homing Missiles from Miranda, boosted primaries from Rey, Bossk/HLC, Dengar and Quickdraw with their revenge shots... add to that needing to block in a lot of cases to get a shot and you can find yourself being burned down faster than your opponent.

This is my concern as well. A very valid point that you're losing a lot of offense. To be fair though, I went all in for offense at GenCon as a joke (I brought a lot of generic TIE Phantoms) and while it's strong against the big point fortress routine, the random lists and TLTs destroyed me. Did pretty well versus Fair Ship 2.0, though I messed up and my opponent beat me into the ground for it.

14 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Colonel Vessery is the only TIE/D pilot I would normally consider.

I was coming up to similar conclusions, to be honest. Throwing in Quickdraw with FCS and Omega Leader seems like a decent trio on paper. They all fly so differently though it's likely much harder on the table.

3 minutes ago, Makaze said:

As far as Ruthlessness goes, it's a neat EPT and great against FSR but it ends up hurting you in other matchups. Denym only has 2 ships and both want to be up close to you so there's an excellent chance that you end up having to skip a shot at least once per game to avoid being a little too ruthless. Remember you must activate it if you shoot, even if that means damaging your own ship.

If you're flying a very small number of ships, and with Defenders that's quite often the case, it's not as likely to occur unless you mess up. As far as the two ships go however, I'm less concerned about Relentlessness failing to trigger. Those lists are coming in to engage one way or another, where FS2.0 plays the time game unless you can break them up. I just flew an inferior copy without selflessness or a wookie ship at a Store Champ, and yes I had a game go to time with only shield damage to either side. It's a monster list.

2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Of course, the gunboat!

Sure it's predictable. My question is: can it kill Nym in 2 turns? I'd expect it to, and those 2 turns will be relatively safe from these 40+ points. Unless TLT of course. So the counterpoint would be that predictable is no problem as long as half the enemy list is ionized and has no way to react anyways. Unless you're talking about different lists, the wingman or even simply the approach before the first round of shots - you're completely right in all of those.

TLT Nym is better than ABT AC Nym in my experience and opinion.

And this doesn't account for the wingman.

EVen taking it as read that you can kill Nym reasonably easily, which I'd dispute, Dengar will shred three /ds, probably on his own.

6 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Jam/Ion/Flechette once Gunboat drops.

Triple PS1 defenders seems like a neat idea until you remember that defenders are SUPER predictable and easy to dodge.

True.

True.

In the current meta and ship design waves, let's just hope that the crazed nut that's been designing Scum ship dials got to design the Gunboat dial, then, maybe, we're talking an Imperial ship that might be able to stand in the ring with the current OP-ness that is the dumpster fire meta.

I mean come on, Empires are built on hope.....that's all they currently have to hold onto.

19 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

The Defender's problem is already dice mods - it's paying points for 3 red dice and 3 green dice but those dice aren't worth the points investment unless you can solidly mod them.

When you take a /D Defender over a /x7 Defender you're exacerbating the problem by removing a dice mod (Evade) and adding 3 more red dice you need to support and modify. The Focus token that you didn't need to spend on defense with/x7 now has to go on your green dice, so even with the upgrade to 6 red dice not 3 your damage output can actually go down!

I actually had a bit of success (and a lot of fun) with variants on the following build:

Delta Squadron Pilot - TIE/D, Ion Cannon x 2

Omicron Group Pilot - Electronic Baffle, Fleet Officer, Operations Specialist

With 6 points left to season to taste. You're relying on a support ship but you can usually effectively pick up your modifiers.

Expertise is also no joke on a TIE/D, saving your Focus token for defense.

15 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

I actually had a bit of success (and a lot of fun) with variants on the following build:

Delta Squadron Pilot - TIE/D, Ion Cannon x 2

Omicron Group Pilot - Electronic Baffle, Fleet Officer, Operations Specialist

With 6 points left to season to taste. You're relying on a support ship but you can usually effectively pick up your modifiers.

Expertise is also no joke on a TIE/D, saving your Focus token for defense.

I've been running something similar lately:

33 Omnicron w/ AdvSensors, Tractor, Hux, Captive.
66 (2x) Delta w/ IonC, TIE/D.

Both Defenders get double focused and the shuttle usually keeps Hux's ability to make the tractor nearly autohit. It's been pretty solid, but it suffers from variance on occasion. On the plus side it massacres agility 1 and 2 lists. Every Miranda I've come up against has spent her last days 1-forwarding.

Just now, CRCL said:

66 (2x) Delta w/ IonC, TIE/D.

Both Defenders get double focused and the shuttle usually keeps Hux's ability to make the tractor nearly autohit. It's been pretty solid, but it suffers from variance on occasion. On the plus side it massacres agility 1 and 2 lists.

Would you consider a flechette for ion+stress, or is the double ion on large ships way more useful&important?

1 minute ago, CRCL said:

Both Defenders get double focused and the shuttle usually keeps Hux's ability to make the tractor nearly autohit. It's been pretty solid, but it suffers from variance on occasion. On the plus side it massacres agility 1 and 2 lists.

...which we are seeing a lot of at the moment, to be fair.

7 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Would you consider a flechette for ion+stress, or is the double ion on large ships way more useful&important?

I like having 2 chances to deal the ion, but I can see the case for the fletchette. It give you a spare point for Mk2s on the TIE/Ds.

6 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

...which we are seeing a lot of at the moment, to be fair.

You also shut down activation bomb drops which is nice (besides via Genious).

It's not a perfect list, but it's fun enough.

2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

How far we've come that Vessery is considered to be a glass cannon...

I feel like the /D version of him has always been that ever since release. He packs quite a punch but flies in a very predictable way and with only the single defensive focus drops fairly fast to concentrated fire.

4 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

If you're flying a very small number of ships, and with Defenders that's quite often the case, it's not as likely to occur unless you mess up. As far as the two ships go however, I'm less concerned about Relentlessness failing to trigger. Those lists are coming in to engage one way or another, where FS2.0 plays the time game unless you can break them up. I just flew an inferior copy without selflessness or a wookie ship at a Store Champ, and yes I had a game go to time with only shield damage to either side. It's a monster list.

In this meta I wouldn't consider 3 ships to be a small number of ships at all, at the moment it's above average. And it's not about Ruthlessness failing to trigger, it's about it triggering when you don't want it to, it's about you having to skip a shot to prevent Vessery from putting 2 into Lockdown. Once Dengar or Nym (or Miranda or Dash or Poe or Rey or name the 2nd ship in all the 2 ships lists out there) go down, assuming you get that far, then Ruthlessness isn't just not helping you it's actively a hindrance to you arc dodging and getting R1 shots with other ships.

Just now, Makaze said:

And it's not about Ruthlessness failing to trigger, it's about it triggering when you don't want it to, it's about you having to skip a shot to prevent Vessery from putting 2 into Lockdown. Once Dengar or Nym (or Miranda or Dash or Poe or Rey or name the 2nd ship in all the 2 ships lists out there) go down, assuming you get that far, then Ruthlessness isn't just not helping you it's actively a hindrance to you arc dodging and getting R1 shots with other ships.

Depends on how you fly. Need to plan ahead on where you'll be turns ahead so you avoid that scenario. Sometimes you sacrifice a round of fire so you're in better position for later rounds.

The Problem is that the Defenders Aces are somewhat meh.

- Rexler Brath is too much jank I nether saw anyone get him working.

- Maarek dosn't really go well with the titles. He would like to use a Mangler cannon but that would waste the double tap. His Tie ADV. Version is much better (wit ATC)

- Vessery is potentially nuts with the double tap but he needs someone with target lock to support him. His Jank usually falls apart when you realise that you can't get the targetlock on the most dangerous target in round one of the engagement cause you didn't bring a pilot wich moves after PS10 Capt.Nym.

- The Countess has a potentially very cool ability which would need a high PS to be really good.


The machine is quite nice but we dosn't have top notch pilots for it.

EDIT: Anyway I did think about a D-list to get on Nyms nerves. don't know if it will hold up though

100 points

1 minute ago, Hannes Solo said:

The Problem is that the Defenders Aces are somewhat meh.

- Rexler Brath is too much jank I nether saw anyone get him working.

- Maarek dosn't really go well with the titles. He would like to use a Mangler cannon but that would waste the double tap. His Tie ADV. Version is much better (wit ATC)

- Vessery is potentially nuts with the double tap but he needs someone with target lock to support him. His Jank usually falls apart when you realise that you can't get the targetlock on the most dangerous target in round one of the engagement cause you didn't bring a pilot wich moves after PS10 Capt.Nym.

- The Countess has a potentially very cool ability which would need a high PS to be really good.


The machine is quite nice but we dosn't have top notch pilots for it.

Vessery wants to be paired with soemone with FCS for just this reason. Usually a /sf.

I won the store championship here in Tyler (14 players I think) with Ruthlessness Tractor Beam Vessery, PTL Ryad and OL. I beat Dengar/Tel worlds list and ReyFinn/SuperNorra but both were incredibly close games and went to time. Ruthlessnes is great against Dengar actually if you can hit someone else and splash the damage onto Dengar (because it does not trigger his ability). I will say that it is a very week build against 2 ship builds or 2 large ships (like bro bots) so you need your other two ships to be great at killing large ships. I did try the Ion with ruthlessness for a while and kept hitting myself due to not being able to tractor the opponent away. So I would reccomend Tractor/Ruthlessness or Ion, not both.

I definitely feel that TieD Ion's have a great place in the meta, but its hard to figure out what wingmen work well with them because they are so many points. Give Rexler and Marek Tie/D Ion with Expertise and you only have room for Wampa.....

4 minutes ago, CRCL said:

I like having 2 chances to deal the ion, but I can see the case for the fletchette. It give you a spare point for Mk2s on the TIE/Ds.

I still didn't put a stress+ion combo on the table myself, but I am really, really fond of the idea ever since I've read about a guy walking a ship off the board with stress+ion.
Unfortunately there's no astromech+cannon combo, and ion turret is range 1-2 only (and too expensive). Maybe the Gunboat will do the trick for me. Of course there are other solutions, too, e.g. with Tactician.