Talking with some friends regard the state of the game and the ups and downs of flotillas. What if flotillas could not be objective ships and did not count towards your capital ship count. Meaning if all you had left were flotillas you lost, with the caveat that you didn't give the full 400pts.

I think this would be a good way of addressing the 7+flotilla builds that people are worried about.

I love armada, but emphasis on activations with 1 big activation and the bidding for first is kind of a negative immersion experience. Now I am not complaining about the state of the game, GenCon proved that lists that aren't flotilla spam can do well and it does heavily rely on who is flying it.

The other thought was what if Flotilla PT costs were caped like squadrons?

Thoughts?

Allow AS to be used against flotilla's instead of normal battery armaments?

21 minutes ago, BergerFett said:

7+flotilla builds that people are worried about.

I was under the impression that since the nerf that removed commanders from flotillas the quality of each activation mattered more than having quantity?

Sorry, I just haven't seen something as insane as 7+ flotilla builds be successful in my area.

Just now, slasher956 said:

Allow AS to be used against flotilla's instead of normal battery armaments?

interesting. this alone may be enough. it may be too powerful but I do like it.

I dont htink you need 2 or 3 of these ideas. Just one really.

Just now, Darth Sanguis said:

I was under the impression that since the nerf that removed commanders from flotillas the quality of each activation mattered more than having quantity?

Sorry, I just haven't seen something as insane as 7+ flotilla builds be successful in my area.

its an outlier. I am seeing more and more 3/4 flotilla builds and I admittedly run a 3 flotilla build and they just circle and push squadrons via relay. Relay may be really bad for the game in hindsight. I played a game at a Store Champ sat. I lost my 2 real ships, but through the flotillas and squadrons killed my enemies ships to win the game. I had no way to actually deal with his fleet, I was just running and squadroning via relay to pick him apart. I guess its part of the game but I do think that there should be more of a negative to flotillas.

what I was thinking... people wont take them just to be activation padders if they can be taken apart by one or two sqns

8 minutes ago, slasher956 said:

what I was thinking... people wont take them just to be activation padders if they can be taken apart by one or two sqns

with sloane they can already be taken apart by few squadrons. an tie interceptor with flight controllers can one shot them by using AS. I kinda like it still but it is probably way too power.

7 minutes ago, BergerFett said:

its an outlier. I am seeing more and more 3/4 flotilla builds and I admittedly run a 3 flotilla build and they just circle and push squadrons via relay. Relay may be really bad for the game in hindsight. I played a game at a Store Champ sat. I lost my 2 real ships, but through the flotillas and squadrons killed my enemies ships to win the game. I had no way to actually deal with his fleet, I was just running and squadroning via relay to pick him apart. I guess its part of the game but I do think that there should be more of a negative to flotillas.

Maybe. I dunno, I think flotillas are in a pretty good place. I use 3 flotillas in my Sato's 'sploders build and they're essential to the functionality of the fleet. What I don't understand is how relaying squads is considered too powerful. I'd take a solid quasar alpha against a bunch of squads relayed 2 at a time...


Hit 'em with the wambojambo....

Are there no squadron player is your meta? I'd think any player who chooses to play the squad game could overcome relay squads

3 minutes ago, BergerFett said:

with sloane they can already be taken apart by few squadrons. an tie interceptor with flight controllers can one shot them by using AS. I kinda like it still but it is probably way too power.

so hide them together with a headhunter or two

whats that different lists & tactics already

edit - to be clear... I dont actually think that they need changing.... but that could just be my exposure to them and the people I play against then to use them for a reason (normally bomber command)

Just now, Darth Sanguis said:

Maybe. I dunno, I think flotillas are in a pretty good place. I use 3 flotillas in my Sato's 'sploders build and they're essential to the functionality of the fleet. What I don't understand is how relaying squads is considered too powerful. I'd take a solid quasar alpha against a bunch of squads relayed 2 at a time...


Hit 'em with the wambojambo....

Are there no squadron player is your meta? I'd think any player who chooses to play the squad game could overcome relay squads

potentially. 2 Lambdas lets you increase the threat of the alpha. I use a big pusher but after that 2 at a time seems fine. we will see thursday i guess. I really don't like the quasar and for the points you can almost get 3 more activations.

4 minutes ago, slasher956 said:

so hide them together with a headhunter or two

whats that different lists & tactics already

edit - to be clear... I dont actually think that they need changing.... but that could just be my exposure to them and the people I play against then to use them for a reason (normally bomber command)

i felt pretty dirty saturday when having 3 gozantis and fighters won me the game because my opponent couldn't catch me or didn't get an accuracy. I think if they jump the points to 450/500 it could help but also may make it worse. Also I have yet to find a very reliable way to kill them that wasn't just a huge point sink or poor trading.

Be the change you want to see...

Just now, Drasnighta said:

Be the change you want to see...

This entirely. The top builds right now are low activation lists some of which have no flotillas. Flotillas serve a purpose, but are a bit overused in some local metas. A good high quality activation list will shut them down.

Just now, BergerFett said:

potentially. 2 Lambdas lets you increase the threat of the alpha. I use a big pusher but after that 2 at a time seems fine. we will see thursday i guess. I really don't like the quasar and for the points you can almost get 3 more activations.

Again, I'm just brought back to quality over quantity... Being able to swing a mass of squads, (especially swarm fighters) mixed in with FC and howl.... it's a powerful combo... how good are relay squads if you lose 3-4 of them in a single round.... especially if the squads the quasar is pushing all have counter values and many have scatters?

IDK... It's been my experience that Mass alpha beats out most other squadron builds.

Let us know after thursday, I'd be curious to see.

21 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Again, I'm just brought back to quality over quantity... Being able to swing a mass of squads, (especially swarm fighters) mixed in with FC and howl.... it's a powerful combo... how good are relay squads if you lose 3-4 of them in a single round.... especially if the squads the quasar is pushing all have counter values and many have scatters?

IDK... It's been my experience that Mass alpha beats out most other squadron builds.

Let us know after thursday, I'd be curious to see.

yea im interested to see if i feel the same way after nationals. I have not played nearly as much as I wanted too in prep for Nationals so that will also be a factor. I had a run where I was getting out activated and punished harshly for it. Its not bad if you run motti and some defensive upgrades like blast doors or ecms but I am not playing a tanky list.

32 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Be the change you want to see...

I truly get it and I played small activation ship builds for a while. I am not sure that Motti/Blast doors is enough to shunt the double/triple tap of BTAvenger. After nationals I will most likely start fleet designs from the ground up again as Regional season should be this winter so its not too soon to start getting ready for that.

1 hour ago, BergerFett said:

i felt pretty dirty saturday when having 3 gozantis and fighters won me the game because my opponent couldn't catch me or didn't get an accuracy. I think if they jump the points to 450/500 it could help but also may make it worse. Also I have yet to find a very reliable way to kill them that wasn't just a huge point sink or poor trading.

On Sunday I won the local SC.

One opponent (2nd place) had bta, 4 goz and squads. I killed all 4 flotillas, using stuff like Maarek/Jendon, IO Demo (quite effective, if old school), my own bta and leading shots.

If you expect flotillas, include stuff that is good at killing flotillas - but also otherwise useful.

If their flotillas spread out, focus down their combat ships. Actively chasing flotillas rarely prove cost effective.

If they clump to support the main vessel, pick them off. Yes, this happens too. Especially if flotillas are needed for flak to swing the balance of the squad game.

1 hour ago, Darth Sanguis said:

I was under the impression that since the nerf that removed commanders from flotillas the quality of each activation mattered more than having quantity?

Sorry, I just haven't seen something as insane as 7+ flotilla builds be successful in my area.

What I've seen is one loaded up ship (Mc80 Assault or Command) and a pile of Flotillas pushing squads. It's not common, but I see it enough to annoy me.

I was thinking about it last night, and I think Raddus might end up as a soft counter to flotilla activation padding. The ability to get your flotilla hunter into position and shooting at them really, really fast (GT Liberty in your backfield at the opening of turn 2) will help with rolling back the tide of activation padding.

We also have only seen a very few of the upgrades in this wave. Before we start proposing even more sweeping rules changes, let's see what FFG has already done to address this. They fixed the Demo triple tap menace, the useless VSD2, and the impotent bomber problems of previous waves--I have no doubt the fix for flotilla activation padding is in this wave.

5 minutes ago, ricefrisbeetreats said:

What I've seen is one loaded up ship (Mc80 Assault or Command) and a pile of Flotillas pushing squads. It's not common, but I see it enough to annoy me.

The deadly pickles I've seen usually have to pick between guaranteeing activation advantage and having a squadron screen worth of the term. In those cases, Sloane with a FC Quasar tends to tear through the screen, and strip the tokens off the death pickle it's relying on to survive. I recommend Defenders over Super-Friends but YMMV. Just be sure to have an ISD waiting in the wings to clean up.

4 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

I was thinking about it last night, and I think Raddus might end up as a soft counter to flotilla activation padding. The ability to get your flotilla hunter into position and shooting at them really, really fast (GT Liberty in your backfield at the opening of turn 2) will help with rolling back the tide of activation padding.

We also have only seen a very few of the upgrades in this wave. Before we start proposing even more sweeping rules changes, let's see what FFG has already done to address this. They fixed the Demo triple tap menace, the useless VSD2, and the impotent bomber problems of previous waves--I have no doubt the fix for flotilla activation padding is in this wave.

This. Raddus means you can have the result of activation advantage, your best ship placed with full knowledge of his, without bothering with having seven or eight ships.

I also share complete confidence in FFG to handle the issue (insofar as they may or may not see it as an issue).

I'm sorry...but this whole flotilla debate yet again? This is a old and tired complaint. If flotillas are a problem for you, then bring something to the table to deal with them. Activation advantage is not going away, and the rules to the game are not going to change. There are plenty of ways to kill flotillas quickly to negate activation advantage. You need to adapt your play style to the game, the game will not adapt to yours.

I just want to point out that a 2 ship (0 flotillas) Star Destroyer list came in second at Gen Con. I have been looking a lot at this list, and I would put it up against any heavy flotilla list you could build.

30 minutes ago, Hrathen said:

I just want to point out that a 2 ship (0 flotillas) Star Destroyer list came in second at Gen Con. I have been looking a lot at this list, and I would put it up against any heavy flotilla list you could build.

I Get it. I ran it for a long time when ISDs first came out its good. That being said the guy didn't really hit any poor match ups for him till the end. Match ups are a big part of tournaments. I am not saying his list will crumble against these super joust lists but its not perfect.

I did mention in my post that someone did very well at GenCon with only 2 activations. That list was strong for a long time.

42 minutes ago, itzSteve said:

I'm sorry...but this whole flotilla debate yet again? This is a old and tired complaint. If flotillas are a problem for you, then bring something to the table to deal with them. Activation advantage is not going away, and the rules to the game are not going to change. There are plenty of ways to kill flotillas quickly to negate activation advantage. You need to adapt your play style to the game, the game will not adapt to yours.

I agree but its still healthy to have a conversation regard flotillas. flotillas rules have already changed. I agree you need flotilla killers but at what point do you take a step back and go "maybe these are causing some issues and need to be re-defined" You needed flotilla hunters when you could put your admiral on them, so why did they fix that?