2 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

I do.

Guess I'm a nobody.

I mean, I didn't say it in those words.

13 minutes ago, Khyros said:

Perhaps. It depends on whether or not you think the Chimera is a "fix" for the ISD, or a new option for the ISD. Referencing their X Wing product line, the Guns for Hire "scum aces" pack came with the fix for both the Starviper and the Kihraxz. It came with two sets of StarViper Mk.II titles and 2 Vaksai titles, even though it only came with 1 model of each. These were the fixes that made those models viable again (er... they never were viable, but they should have been!). However, the individual pilots are still unique to each expansion pack.

So apply that logic to Armada, the ship cards are like generic x wing pilots (basic stats for that specific chassis). The titles for the ships are like the named unique pilots (unique abilities that only one at a time can be fielded. Must be applied to that specific chassis). And the x wing title fixes are like the ship refit cards (you can't leave home without it. You will be hampering yourself by running this chassis without it). I suppose you could make the case that since these Armada refit ship cards are analogous to X wing title cards, then the answer becomes "you'd be stupid to ever run an ISD1/2 when you could run a refit" and therefore the exclusion of the ISD1/2 ship cards from the Chimera pack is because FFG plans on the Chimera refits effectively nullifying the ISD1/2 ship cards.

And if that's the case, then you'll have the same reason as someone in x wing - buy the base expansion once for the unique pilots (x wing) / unique titles (armada), and then any additional ones you want, buy the newer product because it's just better. I suppose I just don't like the conclusion that the refits are supposed to replace the ISD1/2 cards.

Well, the ISD I and II are largely used, specially with wave 6, so I'm mostly positive it's a new option

5 minutes ago, Visovics said:

Well, the ISD I and II are largely used, specially with wave 6, so I'm mostly positive it's a new option

I would like to think so as well. I've personally come to the conclusion that the ISD-2 is pretty much dead, and the ISD-1 might only have fringe usage now, but again, I'm hoping I'm wrong on that. But if FFG agrees that the refits are just a new option, then I'm surprised they're making 3 sets of refits without including any standard sets themselves. If they went with 2 refits and 1 standard, then they'd be portraying the intention of opening options to the ISD. If they went with a single refit, then they'd be making the case that this is an unique stand alone set that does not invalidate the other set at all. But by offering 3 refits and 0 standards, they're basically saying "hey guys, sorry the ISD isn't as imposing in Armada as we all know it should be... Why don't you use these refits that'll make it more intimidating. Kthxbai!"

1 hour ago, Khyros said:

I would like to think so as well. I've personally come to the conclusion that the ISD-2 is pretty much dead, and the ISD-1 might only have fringe usage now, but again, I'm hoping I'm wrong on that. But if FFG agrees that the refits are just a new option, then I'm surprised they're making 3 sets of refits without including any standard sets themselves. If they went with 2 refits and 1 standard, then they'd be portraying the intention of opening options to the ISD. If they went with a single refit, then they'd be making the case that this is an unique stand alone set that does not invalidate the other set at all. But by offering 3 refits and 0 standards, they're basically saying "hey guys, sorry the ISD isn't as imposing in Armada as we all know it should be... Why don't you use these refits that'll make it more intimidating. Kthxbai!"

I'm sorry but who has been saying that the OG ISD's are dead/unformidable? What happened the last time an ISD got to close/medium of a small or medium ship? I'd have to say whoever you are playing against with them must not be very good, cause in the hands of a skilled player they are **** scary

Trade someone for their non-chimera model.

4 hours ago, Khyros said:

I would like to think so as well. I've personally come to the conclusion that the ISD-2 is pretty much dead, and the ISD-1 might only have fringe usage now, but again, I'm hoping I'm wrong on that. But if FFG agrees that the refits are just a new option, then I'm surprised they're making 3 sets of refits without including any standard sets themselves. If they went with 2 refits and 1 standard, then they'd be portraying the intention of opening options to the ISD. If they went with a single refit, then they'd be making the case that this is an unique stand alone set that does not invalidate the other set at all. But by offering 3 refits and 0 standards, they're basically saying "hey guys, sorry the ISD isn't as imposing in Armada as we all know it should be... Why don't you use these refits that'll make it more intimidating. Kthxbai!"

I must disagree with your conclusions concerning the ISDs. The ISD-II is a fine ship, the best (IMO) that the Empire has to offer as a medium range brawler, and seldom do I have a fleet without it. It also has many advantages over the ISD-C, given that with more blue dice and an Ion slot, it can more easily reroll reds and guarantee damage (LS or SW7). The ISD-I still has several benefits over the ISD-K, being in possession of a higher squad value and a Turbolaser slot, in which it can equip upgrades like XI7.

Overall I'd say that all 4 are equally viable. FFG's decision was intend to NOT invalidate their old product. Had they included both old and new ship cards, do you really think people would buy the generic ISD as often, if at all? For the same price you'd get 4 different ship types and 2 squads. They'd get the unique cards off of ebay or something. So I think the inclusion of only new cards was an attempt by FFG to encourage people to buy the new set, whilst STILL buying the old, which really means that they are encouraging the continued use of the old cards, rather than replacing them: 'OK folks, you wanted diversity, here you go, just remember that you still could use the originals, and those aren't included here. Go spend another $50.'

5 hours ago, Khyros said:

Perhaps. It depends on whether or not you think the Chimera is a "fix" for the ISD, or a new option for the ISD. Referencing their X Wing product line, the Guns for Hire "scum aces" pack came with the fix for both the Starviper and the Kihraxz. It came with two sets of StarViper Mk.II titles and 2 Vaksai titles, even though it only came with 1 model of each. These were the fixes that made those models viable again (er... they never were viable, but they should have been!). However, the individual pilots are still unique to each expansion pack.

So apply that logic to Armada, the ship cards are like generic x wing pilots (basic stats for that specific chassis). The titles for the ships are like the named unique pilots (unique abilities that only one at a time can be fielded. Must be applied to that specific chassis). And the x wing title fixes are like the ship refit cards (you can't leave home without it. You will be hampering yourself by running this chassis without it). I suppose you could make the case that since these Armada refit ship cards are analogous to X wing title cards, then the answer becomes "you'd be stupid to ever run an ISD1/2 when you could run a refit" and therefore the exclusion of the ISD1/2 ship cards from the Chimera pack is because FFG plans on the Chimera refits effectively nullifying the ISD1/2 ship cards.

And if that's the case, then you'll have the same reason as someone in x wing - buy the base expansion once for the unique pilots (x wing) / unique titles (armada), and then any additional ones you want, buy the newer product because it's just better. I suppose I just don't like the conclusion that the refits are supposed to replace the ISD1/2 cards.

I think thats probably a really poor assumption. The ISD 2 has advantages over both the refits of the ISD 1, and the ISD 1 has some niche uses that the refits cant pull off- like the super-carrier for example- so neither is actually being replaced here.

Time will tell, but I think the actual 'fixes' to the ISD are in the task force title, new unique titles, and with giving you flexibility to run them as both battleship AND support ship. The only other 'fix' they need is called a Gozanti Flotilla.

Quote

I would like to think so as well. I've personally come to the conclusion that the ISD-2 is pretty much dead, and the ISD-1 might only have fringe usage now, but again, I'm hoping I'm wrong on that. But if FFG agrees that the refits are just a new option, then I'm surprised they're making 3 sets of refits without including any standard sets themselves. If they went with 2 refits and 1 standard, then they'd be portraying the intention of opening options to the ISD. If they went with a single refit, then they'd be making the case that this is an unique stand alone set that does not invalidate the other set at all. But by offering 3 refits and 0 standards, they're basically saying "hey guys, sorry the ISD isn't as imposing in Armada as we all know it should be... Why don't you use these refits that'll make it more intimidating. Kthxbai!"

I think your math is wrong, and leading you to false conclusions.

The new expansion has 3 each of the new ship cards. That allows you to potentially run 3 of the same ship.

But it also means you need 2 of the old ships to do it. Double ISD is a reasonably common point of collection for armada fans. Whether or not its run competitively, alot of us own a second ISD for the upgrades, the cool factor, and for larger games. And because its to date our only large.

By offering 3 of these cards theyre saying, along with the unique nature of almost all of the upgrade cards within, that you only need to buy one of this box and we dont see you ever needing to run more than 3 of any of these ISDs, ever. And frankly, its true- short of recreating the battle of Endor I dont see anyone needing more than 3 of each ISD1. Even if you own 7 star destroyers, and only 1 of them being this new set, I think youd be hard pressed to find a good reason to run more than 3 of either refit, quiaff?

36 minutes ago, Grey Mage said:

I think thats probably a really poor assumption. The ISD 2 has advantages over both the refits of the ISD 1, and the ISD 1 has some niche uses that the refits cant pull off- like the super-carrier for example- so neither is actually being replaced here.

Time will tell, but I think the actual 'fixes' to the ISD are in the task force title, new unique titles, and with giving you flexibility to run them as both battleship AND support ship. The only other 'fix' they need is called a Gozanti Flotilla.

I think your math is wrong, and leading you to false conclusions.

The new expansion has 3 each of the new ship cards. That allows you to potentially run 3 of the same ship.

But it also means you need 2 of the old ships to do it. Double ISD is a reasonably common point of collection for armada fans. Whether or not its run competitively, alot of us own a second ISD for the upgrades, the cool factor, and for larger games. And because its to date our only large.

By offering 3 of these cards theyre saying, along with the unique nature of almost all of the upgrade cards within, that you only need to buy one of this box and we dont see you ever needing to run more than 3 of any of these ISDs, ever. And frankly, its true- short of recreating the battle of Endor I dont see anyone needing more than 3 of each ISD1. Even if you own 7 star destroyers, and only 1 of them being this new set, I think youd be hard pressed to find a good reason to run more than 3 of either refit, quiaff?

I'm at this point exactly. I have 2 ISD's and am thrilled that I will only need to buy 1 chimera pack to run any combination my heart desires

I don think these are fixes. I think we shoul look at them as a diversification in ISD roles. An overall wize move. The rebs have many role filling large ships, the imps have the ISD. The ISD is supposed to be crazy adaptable and these new cards are a good way to show that.

Take it this way, you want a ISD to use it as ;

A carrier - ISD II

A strong striker - ISD Kuat Refit (black dices with defensive retrofit)

A balanced* version - ISD I (* if we can call it this way)

A sniper version - ISD Cymoon 1 Refit (one dice less total, but 5 reds)

A multi-role ship. What he is supposed to be

Hey Noosh?

I thought you made an excellent post in the other similar thread about overhead costs for moulding etc - so I thought I'd share it here.

Maybe we could even sticky it or something on the OP so everyone can re-evaluate their arguments before needing to post?

From the Reusing the same ISD model thread :

On 8/29/2017 at 0:00 PM, Noosh said:

Honestally working in a casting house I can tell you that the mold is the most exspensive part of the whole deal anywher from $20,000 (small matchplate sand casting) to many $100,000s (die casts, perm molds) dependin on workmanship and matierial. So for ffg to shell out thatnkind of money for a minor asthetic change ( that many dont seem to care about) is bad sense. The paint job chaing is way cheeper and a quicker way to make it identifiealbe on the table. Also it looks good too. But seriously thats a big investment for essentially an upgrade kit, that will not move in the same quantity (its a unique paint scheme at best you might buy 2 compared to the blank slate Isd) all in all even extra ware on the mold from increased production will still result in less cost than making a new mold for an isd 1 variant. And would also cut into the already existin ISD model that they already paid for the mold to be made, this could lead to two modles that compete for the money needed for them to recoup their investment.

TLDR: too exspensive for projected sales to make a new mold

I can also add to this. The Mrs. works in a plastic injection moulding factory for medical equipment and she is often astounded at how much setting up a production run can cost - it's as you say, within the tens to hundred thousands.

...I guess, repaint anyone?

Have 1 ISD... that's all I thought I'd want, chimera comes along and I'm eyeing up a 2nd standard ISD plus the chimera

nuff said!

14 hours ago, Grey Mage said:

I think your math is wrong, and leading you to false conclusions.

The new expansion has 3 each of the new ship cards. That allows you to potentially run 3 of the same ship.

But it also means you need 2 of the old ships to do it. Double ISD is a reasonably common point of collection for armada fans. Whether or not its run competitively, alot of us own a second ISD for the upgrades, the cool factor, and for larger games. And because its to date our only large.

By offering 3 of these cards theyre saying, along with the unique nature of almost all of the upgrade cards within, that you only need to buy one of this box and we dont see you ever needing to run more than 3 of any of these ISDs, ever. And frankly, its true- short of recreating the battle of Endor I dont see anyone needing more than 3 of each ISD1. Even if you own 7 star destroyers, and only 1 of them being this new set, I think youd be hard pressed to find a good reason to run more than 3 of either refit, quiaff?

How is my math wrong? The new expansion has 3 of the new ship cards. That allows you to potentially run 3 of the new refit .

But it also mean you need 2 more of either expansion pack to do it. Double ISD is a reasonably common point of collection for Armada fans. Whether or not its run competitively, a lot of us own a second ISD for the upgrades, the cool factor, and for larger games. Now we will own three . And because its to date our only large.

By offering 3 of these cards, they're saying, along with the unique nature of almost all of the upgrade cards within, that you only need to buy one of this box and we don't see you ever needing to run more than 2 standard ISD1/2 or 3 of these new retrofits , ever. And frankly, it's true - short of recreating the battle of Endor, I don't see anyone needing more than 3 of each ISD1 - but keep in mind that you'll need to own 4 Star Destroyers to run 3 ISD1s . Even if you own 7 star destroyers, and only 1 of them being this new set, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a good reason to run more than 3 of either refit. However, if you owned 7 star destroyers, and 6 of them were from the new set, you would not have enough ISD1/2 cards to run more than a single ISD1/2. The rest would all have to be refits. And let's be honest, short of the initial purchase to get the unique cards from the standard ISD expansion pack, the Chimera expansion pack offers a better value by including two squadrons for the same MSRP.

Again, I hope that these refits expand the opportunities available to the ISD, and you're going to see all 4 varieties on the table. I truly do hope that's the case. And I've been a huge fan of the ISD since I started playing the game (given I haven't played that long), and my experience thus far is that none of the ships are beyond useless in Armada like they are in X Wing (though perhaps that's due to the lower number of ships in Armada compared to X Wing) - they all see some amount of play time on the table and all seem to have a niche to fill. I'm just saying that from previous expansion pack re-releases that FFG has done, the second release typically has the fix for the first one, along with extra copies of the fix so your previous models can enjoy it as well.

28 minutes ago, Khyros said:

How is my math wrong? The new expansion has 3 of the new ship cards. That allows you to potentially run 3 of the new refit .

But it also mean you need 2 more of either expansion pack to do it. Double ISD is a reasonably common point of collection for Armada fans. Whether or not its run competitively, a lot of us own a second ISD for the upgrades, the cool factor, and for larger games. Now we will own three . And because its to date our only large.

By offering 3 of these cards, they're saying, along with the unique nature of almost all of the upgrade cards within, that you only need to buy one of this box and we don't see you ever needing to run more than 2 standard ISD1/2 or 3 of these new retrofits , ever. And frankly, it's true - short of recreating the battle of Endor, I don't see anyone needing more than 3 of each ISD1 - but keep in mind that you'll need to own 4 Star Destroyers to run 3 ISD1s . Even if you own 7 star destroyers, and only 1 of them being this new set, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a good reason to run more than 3 of either refit. However, if you owned 7 star destroyers, and 6 of them were from the new set, you would not have enough ISD1/2 cards to run more than a single ISD1/2. The rest would all have to be refits. And let's be honest, short of the initial purchase to get the unique cards from the standard ISD expansion pack, the Chimera expansion pack offers a better value by including two squadrons for the same MSRP.

Again, I hope that these refits expand the opportunities available to the ISD, and you're going to see all 4 varieties on the table. I truly do hope that's the case. And I've been a huge fan of the ISD since I started playing the game (given I haven't played that long), and my experience thus far is that none of the ships are beyond useless in Armada like they are in X Wing (though perhaps that's due to the lower number of ships in Armada compared to X Wing) - they all see some amount of play time on the table and all seem to have a niche to fill. I'm just saying that from previous expansion pack re-releases that FFG has done, the second release typically has the fix for the first one, along with extra copies of the fix so your previous models can enjoy it as well.

Yeah, but ISDs didn't need a fix, so the new expansion can only be an addition to, not a fix-replacement of, the original. And you only need 3 ISD expansions to run 3 ISD-Is. You only need the 4th if you want to have the option of running a new card, and as you can't run 3 ISD-Is and a new card, I don't see why you should include it in the calculations of the number of models you need to run ISD-Is (or IIs). Depending on the Combo, you only ever need buy 3 models to run 3 of any type, and if you want to have the ability to run all three as whim suits you, you only need 4 models to run any combo of 4 cards.

Furthermore, as you can only run 3 ISDs in a fleet, it makes sense that they would include 3 of each type in the pack. What's the point of providing 4 if you will never use it? And you can't mention Endor, 'cause their orientation is Tournament Play. If you focus on getting the Chimera because it appears to have more value for the same money, you must also keep in mind that every time you do, you're getting two models worth of extra cards. Therefore, FFG is actually encouraging you to get the new pack:old pack in a 1:2 ratio, to keep the cards relevant. If anything, I'd say that that encourages the use of the old pack, rather than replaces it.

4 minutes ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

FFG is actually encouraging you to get the new pack:old pack in a 1:2 ratio, to keep the cards relevant. If anything, I'd say that that encourages the use of the old pack, rather than replaces it.

No they're not, and that's exactly my point. If they were truly encouraging a 1:2 new:old ratio, they would include 1 set of the ISD1/2 and 3 sets of the refits. That way if you bought 2 olds and 1 new, you would have 3 ISD1/2 and 3 Refits. And as I originally said, I would have greatly preferred that they included 1 set of the ISD1/2 and 2 sets of the refits in the new exp. It means for each purchase of the new exp pack, it completes a previous purchase of the original xp pack, and it contains the same exact amount of content as they're currently providing.

But by providing 3 sets of refits and 0 ISD1/2, you will never be able to run your fleet of Star Destroyers as exclusively ISD1/2, but you will be able to run them exclusively as Refits.

PS. I didn't bring up Endor. Gray Mage did.

8 minutes ago, Khyros said:

No they're not, and that's exactly my point. If they were truly encouraging a 1:2 new:old ratio, they would include 1 set of the ISD1/2 and 3 sets of the refits. That way if you bought 2 olds and 1 new, you would have 3 ISD1/2 and 3 Refits. And as I originally said, I would have greatly preferred that they included 1 set of the ISD1/2 and 2 sets of the refits in the new exp. It means for each purchase of the new exp pack, it completes a previous purchase of the original xp pack, and it contains the same exact amount of content as they're currently providing.

But by providing 3 sets of refits and 0 ISD1/2, you will never be able to run your fleet of Star Destroyers as exclusively ISD1/2, but you will be able to run them exclusively as Refits.

PS. I didn't bring up Endor. Gray Mage did.

If they included the new cards, who'd get the old pack? Maybe they want you to get 3 ISD packs and 1 Chimera pack, as you can only run 3? I dunno, but I do know that giving people any ship cards from a previous expansion in a new one would spell the doom of said previous expansion. They most certainly don't want that to happen. I don't know what's going on within FFG, so I can't say for certain too much of what they were intending with this expansion, but I am fairly certain that it was not meant as a replacement but as a supplement, and that the lack of old cards does not imply a replacement or death of the previous, but an unwillingness to sacrifice sales due to the 1 model coming with all 4 cards and 2 squads (not to mention a cooler paint job) for the same price as the 2 card, squadless, default paint job original.

So don't take the lack of old cards as saying 'good buy oldie, we don't expect you to run them anymore', but 'ok, here's something new, if you want the original, you still gotta buy it, and if you end up with more ISDs than fit in 400 points, boo-hoo more dough for us.'

And the 'you' in my arguments is generally the generic 'you', often replaced by 'one'. It wasn't you specifically, but anybody making such an argument.

6 minutes ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

If they included the new cards, who'd get the old pack? Maybe they want you to get 3 ISD packs and 1 Chimera pack, as you can only run 3? I dunno, but I do know that giving people any ship cards from a previous expansion in a new one would spell the doom of said previous expansion. They most certainly don't want that to happen. I don't know what's going on within FFG, so I can't say for certain too much of what they were intending with this expansion, but I am fairly certain that it was not meant as a replacement but as a supplement, and that the lack of old cards does not imply a replacement or death of the previous, but an unwillingness to sacrifice sales due to the 1 model coming with all 4 cards and 2 squads (not to mention a cooler paint job) for the same price as the 2 card, squadless, default paint job original.

So don't take the lack of old cards as saying 'good buy oldie, we don't expect you to run them anymore', but 'ok, here's something new, if you want the original, you still gotta buy it, and if you end up with more ISDs than fit in 400 points, boo-hoo more dough for us.'

And the 'you' in my arguments is generally the generic 'you', often replaced by 'one'. It wasn't you specifically, but anybody making such an argument.

Fair enough, but keep in mind that the old pack still comes with the titles and different upgrade cards. You will still need to purchase at least one of the old pack. But now you will never have a complete set of anything. For example, I personally only have one ISD expansion pack. I will be getting the Chimera, giving me two ISD models. But I will not be able to fly a standard dual ISD2 list unless I buy a third ISD model, just for the stupid cardboard. But I could run two of the refits. Oh well.

You could buy an Alternate Art ISD II card instead of a whole additional expansion, if all you are really interested in is the "stupid" cardboard.

4 minutes ago, RookiePilot said:

You could buy an Alternate Art ISD II card instead of a whole additional expansion, if all you are really interested in is the "stupid" cardboard.

Nope. You need the actual cardboard :).

FFG isn't putting three copies of the refits in here because they think there's no reason to use the ISD 1 or 2 anymore. It's so you don't have to buy redundant Chimaera paintjobs just to have multiple refits in your fleet. And my sense of Thrawn is that he'll help justify multiple ISDs in your fleet. Thanks FFG.

13 hours ago, Alpha Xg1 said:

Hey Noosh?

I thought you made an excellent post in the other similar thread about overhead costs for moulding etc - so I thought I'd share it here.

Maybe we could even sticky it or something on the OP so everyone can re-evaluate their arguments before needing to post?

From the Reusing the same ISD model thread :

I can also add to this. The Mrs. works in a plastic injection moulding factory for medical equipment and she is often astounded at how much setting up a production run can cost - it's as you say, within the tens to hundred thousands.

...I guess, repaint anyone?

Thank you for the appreshiation. It pleses me that you found it insightfull. Also you are ine heck of a nice guy, im just too lazy to do stuff like this!

On 8/29/2017 at 3:20 PM, Khyros said:

I would like to think so as well. I've personally come to the conclusion that the ISD-2 is pretty much dead, and the ISD-1 might only have fringe usage now, but again, I'm hoping I'm wrong on that. But if FFG agrees that the refits are just a new option, then I'm surprised they're making 3 sets of refits without including any standard sets themselves. If they went with 2 refits and 1 standard, then they'd be portraying the intention of opening options to the ISD. If they went with a single refit, then they'd be making the case that this is an unique stand alone set that does not invalidate the other set at all. But by offering 3 refits and 0 standards, they're basically saying "hey guys, sorry the ISD isn't as imposing in Armada as we all know it should be... Why don't you use these refits that'll make it more intimidating. Kthxbai!"

Or they expect the people most likely to balk at buying another ISD are those who already have exactly 2.

Which IMO makes sense, as tehre are 2x ISD lists so somone who has 1 can be tempted with the possibility of fielding a list like thatl, and anyone who likes ISD's enough to get 3+ will probably buy the new pack no matter what. But people who already have 2 will be thinking "When am I really going to field 3 ISD's".