3 hours ago, Vineheart01 said:

For this reason alone i think taking Wraiths with any depth is a bad idea. Once you add a rank they suddenly will more than likely never be able to slip right by another unit, only not get clipped when turning.

Yet another reason...

You're really overestimating how often you'd pass through other units at anything other than a clip

18 minutes ago, Hepitude said:

I especially like the flavor and design behind Kari's renown as a wraith stalker now. Her surge ability is not affected by the wraith's reroll ability and every surge she rolls equals a dead wraith.

Her throwing daggers are probably silver or cold iron!

3 minutes ago, Wraithist said:

Her throwing daggers are probably silver or cold iron!

Iron, cold iron, is master of them all

There it is, another part to the puzzle. Love these wraiths, love the rules, love the models. GG FFG

6 hours ago, Contrapulator said:

Edit to add: with their Undying Hate, they get RW against a target! I love it, it's like calling your shot.

Theme-wise, it reminds me very much of this lore card from BattleLore. We've got a Wraith putting a death mark on an Obscene. Hopefully we'll be able to play this out in Runewars in the not-too-distant future!

18 hours ago, Ywingscum said:

I like the design gonna hate playing against it.

i want the pass thru stuff for elves too

free reform after movement and ignoring obstacles make them great at flanking and going after their chosen unit. Great for objectives. 2 attacks!

Pegasus Cavalry. Leonx are heavy cav, Wraiths have given us a rough template that can translate to flying units, which we know elves use in lore.

Having a real hard time buying into we all get more cav over a single data point. Also hoping here is where we start to see assymetry.

It's not a certainty, but heavy and light cavalry is a common theme.

i dont think we'd see it for awhile but i'd be surprised if we dont eventually get Elite infantry/cavalry. Elite not being a unit type, just a term used to show that they are not cheap.

Though any Elite Infantry for Waiqar would need to be denied Maro additions. Since im talking about 45-ish pts for 2 trays no upgrades level of Elite lol.

OK, so suppose you have a unit of Wraiths with Metered March. You dial in movement and a charge modifier. Could you...

1. Move through an enemy unit and, with Metered March, stop your movement just after passing through an enemy but still in contact. Would you then square up and carry out the charge/attack? Or does passing through a unit preclude the possibility of colliding on the other side?

2. When exactly does the Wraiths free reform take place? In the above example, could you reform before attacking? Doing so you could put your front edge into contact and get the flanking bonus, otherwise you'd be back-to-back... still able to attack but not flanking for the charge.

37 minutes ago, Daverman said:

OK, so suppose you have a unit of Wraiths with Metered March. You dial in movement and a charge modifier. Could you...

1. Move through an enemy unit and, with Metered March, stop your movement just after passing through an enemy but still in contact. Would you then square up and carry out the charge/attack? Or does passing through a unit preclude the possibility of colliding on the other side?

2. When exactly does the Wraiths free reform take place? In the above example, could you reform before attacking? Doing so you could put your front edge into contact and get the flanking bonus, otherwise you'd be back-to-back... still able to attack but not flanking for the charge.

Wow, this is actually a very interesting point...

I think it would work, so let's go over the steps.

-Waiqar Wraiths with Metered March dials in a march with charge modifier. The wraith MAY ignore any number of units and terrain while marching.

-Wraiths use Metered March to move through/over an enemy unit, stopping on the other side, in contact with the enemy unit's rear edge.

Let's talk briefly about how collision and the Wraith ability interact. Wraiths MAY ignore any number of units and terrain DURING a move. Collision due to contacting an obstacle occurs after a move is complete, as per RR-18. After is not during, so by the time collision would trigger, the Wraith ability has ended, and you are free to collide as you wish. Note that the Wraith ability says MAY, so you may also choose to simply blast into the enemy unit, overlap and collide as normal.

Now there are several events to resolve; Collision, Squaring up, Reforming, and Attacking as a result of charge, so let's look at timings.

Collision occurs AFTER the March has completed. Squaring up occurs AFTER collision. The Wraiths reform occus AFTER the march or shift has completed. The Attack as a result of Charge occurs AFTER the move has completed (as long as a collision takes place).

The Attacker decides which even takes precedence in the case of simultaneous triggers, so...

- FIRST, you could trigger the Wraith's reform, spinning them around. (You are, at this point, engaged, so the Wraiths can reform so long as they end contacting the same edge of the enemy unit as they were when they started their reform)

- SECOND, you could trigger the collision as per RR-18.

- THIRD, you would square up (triggered by the collision)

- FOURTH and finally, you would perform your attack.

Note that the reform and the collision share the same trigger, so can be swapped either way. Squaring up is triggered directly by the collision, and even though the attack shares the same timing as the reform and collision, the collision must trigger before it or it won't work.

TL;DR - Yes, they can totally do that. Pretty cool.

Pretty sure a charge is not a march. There are upgrades that specifically call out a march which shows the arrow and others that call out a charge which show the charge modifier icon.

However all that would really mean is you dont get your rerolls either, which so far we have no indication they can get it anyway.

im at work so i cant review the rules though immediately.

Oh boy, rules lawyering. First, overlapping.

"60.1 When a unit would overlap an obstacle as part of a march or shift action, it resolves a collision. 60.2 When a unit is performing a reform action, it cannot complete the action in a position where it would overlap or touch an obstacle."

Your wraith is overlapping the enemy, so collide and square up. However, you are not allowed to overlap during a reform action.

Now, squaring up.

"77.1 To square up his unit, the player pivots his unit around the point of contact with the enemy unit until the squaring-up unit’s front edge is parallel with the enemy unit’s contacted edge for that engagement. Then, the player slides the squaringup unit in either direction of his choice along the contacted edge, stopping at the first opportunity for the trays of the moving unit to be aligned with the trays of the enemy unit."

Rule 77.3 is an exception for moving backward or sideways, but because we are moving forward it doesn't apply. So, per 77.1, we pivot Wraith until its front edge is parallel with the enemy's contacted edge, and slide into place.

But is the contacted edge is actually the back edge of the unit, where you are overlapping at the end of your move? Or is it the first edge of the unit that you touched during the move? Generally in FFG games, when units "bump" you have to move it backward along the movement template until the point of collision, but I cannot seem to locate this rule in the RMG rule book. Help?

25 minutes ago, Contrapulator said:

Oh boy, rules lawyering. First, overlapping.

"60.1 When a unit would overlap an obstacle as part of a march or shift action, it resolves a collision. 60.2 When a unit is performing a reform action, it cannot complete the action in a position where it would overlap or touch an obstacle."

Your wraith is overlapping the enemy, so collide and square up. However, you are not allowed to overlap during a reform action.

Negative.

Your wraith is not overlapping the enemy (or rather, it can freely choose to ignore the overlap), as per the Wraith special ability which reads "During a [March] or [Shift], you may ignore any number of units and terrain."

Regarding reforming, RR-68.2 "If an active unit performs a reform action while engaged with one or more units, the active unit can rotate around either its center point or the center point of any of its individual trays. After performing the reform action while engaged, the active unit must be touching the same enemy units along the same contacted edge of the enemy unit that it was touching before performing the reform action"

RR 34 "If any part of a unit's trays are touching any part of an enemy unit's trays, those units are engaged."

So yes, you absolutely CAN reform, so long as you are touching the enemy prior to reforming, which the Wraiths are.

25 minutes ago, Contrapulator said:

"77.1 To square up his unit, the player pivots his unit around the point of contact with the enemy unit until the squaring-up unit’s front edge is parallel with the enemy unit’s contacted edge for that engagement. Then, the player slides the squaringup unit in either direction of his choice along the contacted edge, stopping at the first opportunity for the trays of the moving unit to be aligned with the trays of the enemy unit."

Rule 77.3 is an exception for moving backward or sideways, but because we are moving forward it doesn't apply. So, per 77.1, we pivot Wraith until its front edge is parallel with the enemy's contacted edge, and slide into place.

But is the contacted edge is actually the back edge of the unit, where you are overlapping at the end of your move? Or is it the first edge of the unit that you touched during the move? Generally in FFG games, when units "bump" you have to move it backward along the movement template until the point of collision, but I cannot seem to locate this rule in the RMG rule book. Help?

Doesn't apply.

By the time you square up the wraiths, their front edge will be in contact with the target unit's back edge.

21 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

Pretty sure a charge is not a march. There are upgrades that specifically call out a march which shows the arrow and others that call out a charge which show the charge modifier icon.

However all that would really mean is you dont get your rerolls either, which so far we have no indication they can get it anyway.

im at work so i cant review the rules though immediately.

Charge is a modifier that modifies ANY move that has the correct stance, March or Shift. A charge is always either a March or a Shift. Charge is not an action.

9 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

RR 34 "If any part of a unit's trays are touching any part of an enemy unit's trays, those units are engaged."

Okay! So it works if you end your Wraith's movement touching but not overlapping. Because they are touching, they are engaged. Therefore the Wraith can perform a reform while engaged. Touching also triggers collision, so you can square up and even perform an attack if you charged. It's the perfect flank!

4 minutes ago, Contrapulator said:

Okay! So it works if you end your Wraith's movement touching but not overlapping. Because they are touching, they are engaged. Therefore the Wraith can perform a reform while engaged. Touching also triggers collision, so you can square up and even perform an attack if you charged. It's the perfect flank!

Yep, and thanks to timing triggers, you can reform before you square up and attack.

It pretty much REQUIRES Metered March to work, though, because guessing that distance just so is like... supercomputer level tomfoolery.

Thankfully, 3x1 of wraiths can take a music upgrade so... seems like that's the golden combo.

It's a cool thought in theory, but you'd have to be within one base of a single rank unit to charge at initiative 6, or slightly further and charge at 7. Just about every unit in the game is going to get a charge off on you before that

Just now, Click5 said:

It's a cool thought in theory, but you'd have to be within one base of a single rank unit to charge at initiative 6, or slightly further and charge at 7. Just about every unit in the game is going to get a charge off on you before that

So engage the unit first with a throwaway group of Reanimates, or Immobilize them.

No tactic works in a vacuum.

Some tactics don't work

Just now, Click5 said:

Some tactics don't work

Well, feel free to ignore Wraiths at your peril, then.

Just now, Click5 said:

Some tactics don't work

It's the perfect flank, my dude. Nobody said it would be easy.

I've been praising the Wraiths thoughout this whole thread, despite being ridiculed for my thoughts! It feels like I'm the only one who has actually put some trays on the table and started measuring things out though

4 minutes ago, Click5 said:

It feels like I'm the only one who has actually put some trays on the table and started measuring things out though

To pull it off, all you have to do is jump over any part of the enemy unit, even the tiniest corner. I feel like it will be achievable. Especially since you have metered march to set the Wraith up in the perfect position on the previous turn.