Lion can win through honor because they don't need to rely on honoring their bodies as often as other clans.

Ikoma Prodigy gives you an honor when you recruit her.

Venerable Historian honor's herself when she enters a conflict.

Honored General honors himself when he enters play.

Akodo Gunso has pride so when you win that military conflict you were already going to win he honors.

That is 12 cards in the dynasty deck alone that feed you honor.

On top of these 12, we have the Kitsu Spiritcaller to allow you to trigger some of the effects again. Bringing back an honored general or a venerable historian can net even more honor. So you can just dig through the dynasty deck to gain honor just for using your bodies, and because a lot of it is honored you need the fire ring less and can focus on the air ring.

Then you have fantastic cards to keep the pressure off of you, because you lose honor if you can't defend, so you need chump blockers.

Steadfast Samurai is always there to defend for you.

Keeper Initiates also return every time you win the earth ring, which you might swing for to get that sweet card draw. They can be very good chump blockers when they come back with one fate.

You also have Toturi who can nab the fire/air ring twice when he swings, also an excellent Spiritcaller target.

Then you have Staging Grounds which lets you flip up your face down dynasty cards before the end of the turn, to dig for even more of your honoring characters or to be able to discard them so you make room to dig deeper.

Then in the Conflict deck you have court games to honor on political conflicts and Honored Blade to gain honor when you win those military conflicts you know you want to win.

If you splash phoenix you can use Display of power to steal the air ring from the opponent if they swing first and Seeker of Air to gain access to another courtier and swing for air again. Also Magnificent Kimono to again gain honor from winning conflicts.

Lion Honor has a few natural predators, but its at least feasible as you dig through your dynasty for honor characters, bring them out, swing for air, then defend only to dig for more and resurrect the dead ones to keep the honor train rolling.

2 hours ago, Nickciufi said:

Given the above dissertation highlighting the numerous, incredibly popular ways an opponent can lose honor (outside of honor bids and Ring of Air), and the few and restrictive ways there are to gain honor (outside of an opponent's bid and the Ring of Air), honor is simply not a viable path to victory at this point . Ring of Air gaining 2 versus gaining 1 and taking 1 is more or less irrelevant considering all of these other associated factors. And if you can win Ring of Air 5-7 times, you could have likely won the game through conflict after 3-5 of those victories.

Wow, full of yourself much? lol

You give a good example why you feel Phoenix are great for dishonor. I haven't been speaking about the Phoenix at all yet because I don't have experience with them. I specifically said Lion favor honor victory, Crane can go either way, but choose dishonor.

Lion have quite a few abilities that specifically favor honor - and have absolutely zero use in dishonor.

- Akodo Guinso - Honored Blade - Honored General - Ikoma Prodigy - Venerable Historian -

All of these cards specifically work to provide you with honor. The Ring of Fire combined with the reliably higher glory stats of Lion characters make honoring your own characters better than dishonoring your opponents. This also provides you with defense against the Crane event cancel. Akodo Toturi can trigger rings twice and certainly wants to be honored himself. Kitsu Spiritcaller can bring back Akodo Guinso, Honored General, and Venerable Historian to easily spread the honor. The Lion players are naturally going to draw less. If the opponent bids high once they can already consider themselves reasonably safe from assassination, and their opponent is likely to be bidding low through the rest of the game giving the Lion a distinct advantage.

PS - if you splash Dragon and drop Kazue on Ikoma Prodigy you can gain an honor every time you can steal a fate.

Crane are able to go both ways but also have cards that specifically help with honoring, and not dishonoring.

- Brash Samurai - Savvy Politician - Steward of Law - Way of the Crane -

These cards only help with honoring. I include Steward of Law because you cannot dishonor your opponent with Ring of Fire while he is there, limiting your ability to dishonor and focus on that tactic. There are also cards that have synergy with honoring, but not with dishonoring. Asahina Storyteller only gives Sincerity to honored Crane, if you spend your actions dishonoring then you don't gain the card draw as your characters leave play. Voice of Honor specifically counts honored characters so you will need at least 1 honored character in order to trigger this and that honor detracts from the dishonor strategy. As with the Lion the Crane have a naturally high glory which makes it more consistent to gain meaningful stats from honoring your characters than dishonoring your opponent's characters.

Dueling, like card bids is a two edged sword. Kakita Asami, Doji Hotaru, and The Art of Peace also fill both roles. Dishonor is closer than honoring and the Crane have tools for both, so players are choosing to play more to dishonor right now. This allows them to include Assassinations, Forged Edicts, and other honor-loss or dishonor actions... but I think Dishonoring Crane would find it tougher against Honoring Lion. Crane should be ready to play either way rather than focus on 1 of them.

Maybe for Phoenix it isn't viable, but it is not an empty goal. Even against Scorpion it is not empty. While the Scorpion Stronghold can steal 1 honor per turn they'll either draw 2 cards and take that 1 honor back, negating any effect they had preventing your honor win, or they'll join you at 1 card... and Scorpion don't play well drawing just 1 card...

Dishonor has one major advantage that Honor does not, your opponent loses an honor if they don't defend.

Its a huge difference that either forces the opponent to hold bodies back because they don't want to lose rings and honor, which makes it easier for the dishonor deck to defend themselves as less characters are attacking, or the dishonor deck can sneak their second conflict unopposed with covert characters or just forcing the opponent to over commit.

Its a small nasty trick that dishonor can do.

But Phoenix right now want to be dishonor, they can control and deny the air ring, a dishonor deck's greatest weakness, and have plenty of opportunities to dishonor the opponent while their box can make a dishonored character much weaker. Honor decks want to attack for air, phoenix can drop Tsukune and Mediators and then play defense while draining the opponent. Swinging in with Adept for water conflicts unopposed to either unbow their defenders or bow an opponent all to ensure they lose an honor and cant swing.

34 minutes ago, shosuko said:

Maybe for Phoenix it isn't viable, but it is not an empty goal. Even against Scorpion it is not empty. While the Scorpion Stronghold can steal 1 honor per turn they'll either draw 2 cards and take that 1 honor back, negating any effect they had preventing your honor win, or they'll join you at 1 card... and Scorpion don't play well drawing just 1 card...

Clearly my initial post and my superseding post spoke of Phoenix and only Phoenix. Expanding the discussion to other clans is fine, but don't pretend that I said something I didn't. SPECIFICALLY FOR THE PHOENIX CLAN, as the game stands today, honor is a dead end as compared to dishonor.

This board being what it is, I expect argument about the topics being discussed. However, saying that I'm full of myself is completely uncalled for. Try to find another way to discuss the topic with a fellow player without immediately assuming negative qualities of that player the minute they offer their viewpoint.

48 minutes ago, Nickciufi said:

Clearly my initial post and my superseding post spoke of Phoenix and only Phoenix. Expanding the discussion to other clans is fine, but don't pretend that I said something I didn't. SPECIFICALLY FOR THE PHOENIX CLAN, as the game stands today, honor is a dead end as compared to dishonor.

This board being what it is, I expect argument about the topics being discussed. However, saying that I'm full of myself is completely uncalled for. Try to find another way to discuss the topic with a fellow player without immediately assuming negative qualities of that player the minute they offer their viewpoint.

Your initial post did not speak about only Phoenix. You said

23 hours ago, Nickciufi said:

Conceptually, which is easier: Gaining 14 by yourself, or reducing your opponent by 9-11 with help from their bids?

Ring of Air +2 is tempting, until you realize that +1/-1 is faster as a victory condition, when combined with mid-to-high honor dial bids and Assassination / Banzai shenanigans.

Phoenix players are especially good at achieving dishonor victories, as they have near at-will access to fire and air. Combine this with a stronghold that already gains advantage from dishonoring your opponent's personalities, and there are purely more synergies for dishonor than there are for honor.

These are not about phoenix , they are about the concept of honor vs dishonor victory. This is why you said "Conceptually," not "for the Phoenix." I counter that honor bids give you honor, helping in honor victory as well, as does the +2 from Ring of Air. Your opponent making a high bid and giving you honor restricts them from using more honor-loss actions, lest they throw them game for themselves. You certainly won't find this easy against a player who can bid conservatively, and doesn't resort to honor-loss tactics. It may be easier for the Phoenix to reach for dishonor, but that doesn't mean honor is not viable. This thread is about whether honor is viable or not.

3 hours ago, Nickciufi said:

Given the above dissertation highlighting the numerous, incredibly popular ways an opponent can lose honor (outside of honor bids and Ring of Air), and the few and restrictive ways there are to gain honor (outside of an opponent's bid and the Ring of Air), honor is simply not a viable path to victory at this point. Ring of Air gaining 2 versus gaining 1 and taking 1 is more or less irrelevant considering all of these other associated factors. And if you can win Ring of Air 5-7 times, you could have likely won the game through conflict after 3-5 of those victories.

Here is where your ego is showing. "Dissertation highlighting the numerous"...? Getting a little full of yourself. You would want to win the Ring of Air for dishonor as much as you would for honor, so you can't say I'd win by breaking provinces after winning so many battles any more than I could say YOU would break provinces after winning so many battles to claim the ring of air, as both tactics require that part of the strategy. What you would say to that is exactly what I would say. You don't have to break provinces to win the Ring of Air multiple times, and with Lion you likely need it just a few times, considering all of the other ways they can gain honor - and their dynasty deck is already built to allow them to bid just 1 all game so they'll get a boost from that as well. Getting Toturi to double-trigger the Ring of Air can certainly help this a lot too.

Lion could even Splash Phoenix to gain some of their awesome abilities too - like Seeker of Knowledge and Know the World, which would both allow them much greater access to Ring of Air giving them even more strength in honor victory.

The only reason we don't see honor more is because people are new to the game. Honor loss typically happens from a player making a mistake, and since the game is new and the meta is still forming, a lot of mistakes are being made. Lion can 100% make for an honor victory as a standard game plan, they don't even need their opponent to mess up. Crane could as well, but I think players are just enjoying the greater access to dishonoring so they aren't building for honor yet. The game isn't even fully released, and there are no major tournaments where people must build to win against players who are also built to win. As we see the meta form you will see a defensive honor deck rise, which seeks to win battles, but not to dump the excessive force required to break provinces, instead conserving that strength so they can continue their defense.

44 minutes ago, shosuko said:

Your initial post did not speak about only Phoenix. You said

These are not about phoenix , they are about the concept of honor vs dishonor victory. This is why you said "Conceptually," not "for the Phoenix." I counter that honor bids give you honor, helping in honor victory as well, as does the +2 from Ring of Air. Your opponent making a high bid and giving you honor restricts them from using more honor-loss actions, lest they throw them game for themselves. You certainly won't find this easy against a player who can bid conservatively, and doesn't resort to honor-loss tactics. It may be easier for the Phoenix to reach for dishonor, but that doesn't mean honor is not viable. This thread is about whether honor is viable or not.

Here is where your ego is showing. "Dissertation highlighting the numerous"...? Getting a little full of yourself. You would want to win the Ring of Air for dishonor as much as you would for honor, so you can't say I'd win by breaking provinces after winning so many battles any more than I could say YOU would break provinces after winning so many battles to claim the ring of air, as both tactics require that part of the strategy. What you would say to that is exactly what I would say. You don't have to break provinces to win the Ring of Air multiple times, and with Lion you likely need it just a few times, considering all of the other ways they can gain honor - and their dynasty deck is already built to allow them to bid just 1 all game so they'll get a boost from that as well. Getting Toturi to double-trigger the Ring of Air can certainly help this a lot too.

Lion could even Splash Phoenix to gain some of their awesome abilities too - like Seeker of Knowledge and Know the World, which would both allow them much greater access to Ring of Air giving them even more strength in honor victory.

The only reason we don't see honor more is because people are new to the game. Honor loss typically happens from a player making a mistake, and since the game is new and the meta is still forming, a lot of mistakes are being made. Lion can 100% make for an honor victory as a standard game plan, they don't even need their opponent to mess up. Crane could as well, but I think players are just enjoying the greater access to dishonoring so they aren't building for honor yet. The game isn't even fully released, and there are no major tournaments where people must build to win against players who are also built to win. As we see the meta form you will see a defensive honor deck rise, which seeks to win battles, but not to dump the excessive force required to break provinces, instead conserving that strength so they can continue their defense.

You must know what I meant better than I do. I yield to your superior, egoless arguments.

For any of the clan archetypes more tools are either needed or welcomed. Thus far, the first Dynasty pack doesn't show anything truly promising for Honor or Dishonor.

From personal experience, Honor have been quite easier to achieve than dishonor (I play defensively so I've had experiences trying to make dishonor and honor decks with Crane, Phoenix and Scorpion). The biggest problem with Honor/Dishonor decks are the implied "bid 1 the entire game". It severely hamstrings a decks capacity to win a conflict with reduced card draw but clans that want to honor (or dishonor) like Crane and Phoenix has in-clan tools to mitigate this problem (their respective clan holding). Also, Phoenix has the ability to trigger Air ring twice with Seeker of Knowledge's help and Crane has Noble Sacrifice to remove threats. Imagine a Phoenix one that splashes Crane.

Lets not forget that an Air ring is worth +2 honor to a dedicated honor deck and only -1 honor for a dedicated dishonor deck. So to be fair, you only need to trigger Air ring half the number of times to reach 25(from 16) than to drag someone to 0(from 6).

Can't speak for Lion though, as I've never tinkered with them.

I've only played a few games with my son, but in two of them (both Crane vs. Crab), I got him down to zero honor. The most I had was maybe 16, which is a long ways away from the necessary 25. But as others have said, that's just with one core, so I imagine an honor victory will be more likely when there's more to work with...

1 hour ago, Shosuro Teri said:

From personal experience, Honor have been quite easier to achieve than dishonor (I play defensively so I've had experiences trying to make dishonor and honor decks with Crane, Phoenix and Scorpion). The biggest problem with Honor/Dishonor decks are the implied "bid 1 the entire game". It severely hamstrings a decks capacity to win a conflict with reduced card draw but clans that want to honor (or dishonor) like Crane and Phoenix has in-clan tools to mitigate this problem (their respective clan holding). Also, Phoenix has the ability to trigger Air ring twice with Seeker of Knowledge's help and Crane has Noble Sacrifice to remove threats. Imagine a Phoenix one that splashes Crane.

Lets not forget that an Air ring is worth +2 honor to a dedicated honor deck and only -1 honor for a dedicated dishonor deck. So to be fair, you only need to trigger Air ring half the number of times to reach 25(from 16) than to drag someone to 0(from 6).

Can't speak for Lion though, as I've never tinkered with them.

And that's without using Know the World and Tsukune to toss the Air ring back into the unclaimed pool and then fire its effect off for a THIRD time.

Honor victory in he current environment is not very likely with two players that are familiar to the game and have solidly built decks. There are just not enough cards in the core set to support Honor as a reliable win condition. Dishonor is much more likely and a viable secondary win condition.

I suspect by the end of the first cycle, if not after a few Dynasty Packs, both honor and Dishonor will be viable first options.

On 8/28/2017 at 3:15 PM, BayushiCroy said:

*Wins primarily with honor with his lion deck. *

I have heard about your deck and really respect you playing against the meta. I personally feel that most clans can't pull it off the same as Lion.

Which is sad, because I want my Dragons to duel and steal all the honor from people expecting me to murder them.

On 8/29/2017 at 10:03 AM, Nickciufi said:

There are precisely two cards not related to honor or dishonor which gain honor: Levy and Honored Blade.

There are only two conflict cards that gain honour; you missed Ikoma Prodigy. Irrelevant for Phoenix but relevant for Lion.

On 8/29/2017 at 10:03 AM, Nickciufi said:

Every action that Phoenix can play which honors a friendly character can also be used to dishonor an opponent's character.

Not necessarily. Magnificent Kimono gives +1 Pol, so playing it on your side makes winning the conflict easier than if you played it onto your opponent's side, so it easier to use it for honour than dishonour (albeit slightly). That said, I agree with you that Phoenix is more likely to win by dishonour than honour, but in your post you make it sound like honour is not viable for any clan. I disagree.

And as to the OP, I have seen several honour victories with Lion, and won one myself. In several of the games that ended in a stronghold break, the Lion player was at or above 20 honour. It really is down to how you bid. Lion can easily bid 1 and survive because their dynasty deck is just that good, and they have cards that reward them for doing so.

7 minutes ago, Casanunda said:

There are only two conflict cards that gain honour; you missed Ikoma Prodigy. Irrelevant for Phoenix but relevant for Lion.

Isn't their a crane character that lets you steal honor from your opponent?

32 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

Isn't their a crane character that lets you steal honor from your opponent?

Kakita Asami

5 minutes ago, shosuko said:

Kakita Asami

ugh...hate her.

5 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

ugh...hate her.

To be fair - I hate all crane

Phoenix are all bloodspeakers

Unicorn are all pony girls

2 minutes ago, shosuko said:

Unicorn are all pony girls

This is true. Cute too.

Just now, RandomJC said:

This is true. Cute too.

Altansarnai seems fiery, but I really wanna see Kamoko start taking heads. She was always one of my favorites.

On ‎8‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 2:34 AM, Mandalore525 said:

I guess the Scorpions don't need strong cards to win--just gullible opponents.

Spoken like a true Scorpion.