11 hours ago, Rat of Vengence said:

So many tears!

On the light side of things, like your crafty pic insertion, people are passionate about something so they like to express themselves. And, much like some avid sports fans, giving time and money into something makes one invested and their opinion matters.

On the heavier side of things, remember, we players who put cash and time out for these games and tournaments ultimately pay the FFG designers salary; in a way, they work for us. So, when clear game imbalance is apparent and can be easily proved by consistent data, players complaints should be issued in an open forum; salt should be shaken at the gross errors; --and most importantly-- the designers should listen, see their mistakes, and quickly fix (FAQ in lieu of slow design and manufacturing repairs), for their jobs should depend on it.

Yeah, your meme is funny, but there are some real and actually simple problems and they are not being addressed.

15 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

On the light side of things, like your crafty pic insertion, people are passionate about something so they like to express themselves. And, much like some avid sports fans, giving time and money into something makes one invested and their opinion matters.

On the heavier side of things, remember, we players who put cash and time out for these games and tournaments ultimately pay the FFG designers salary; in a way, they work for us. So, when clear game imbalance is apparent and can be easily proved by consistent data, players complaints should be issued in an open forum; salt should be shaken at the gross errors; --and most importantly-- the designers should listen, see their mistakes, and quickly fix (FAQ in lieu of slow design and manufacturing repairs), for their jobs should depend on it.

Yeah, your meme is funny, but there are some real and actually simple problems and they are not being addressed.

The best way for people to address issues is stop playing if they don't like the game anymore. Stop buying the little plastic ships. I really don't understand why someone would come to a forum and complain about the same things for weeks on end. It's just a game.

59 minutes ago, gennataos said:

The best way for people to address issues is stop playing if they don't like the game anymore. Stop buying the little plastic ships. I really don't understand why someone would come to a forum and complain about the same things for weeks on end. It's just a game.

That's right folks, as soon as something gets the least bit difficult, JUST QUIT! Don't engage or work towards fixing things, just give up!

1 hour ago, gennataos said:

The best way for people to address issues is stop playing if they don't like the game anymore. Stop buying the little plastic ships. I really don't understand why someone would come to a forum and complain about the same things for weeks on end. It's just a game.

That's the problem I have. I want to play but everybody DID quit. Too many obscure Scum ships, games that didn't look like Star Wars, power creep, Scum becoming by far the dominant faction and an FAQ almost as long as the rules killed it. It didn't address any issues, it just left me with some very pretty, very redundant plastic spaceships.

2 hours ago, Scumwing Apologist said:

That's right folks, as soon as something gets the least bit difficult, JUST QUIT! Don't engage or work towards fixing things, just give up!

If by work towards fixing things you mean screechingly chase one's own tail for weeks on end with the same complaints, these forums are well on their way to building a third Death Star.

I feel that the amount of agency the players have over the path of the game is vastly overestimated by many posters. The truth is, your money is your vote. It's how you starve the Illuminati that purposefully chokes the life out of the Empire, a military force bested by teddy bears with rocks and sticks, which is to say the best pretend military in a made-up universe ever ruthlessly marketed to children.

More to the point, why play if it makes you miserable? It's a game, every time you play it it's a choice. No one's making you move little spaceships around a mat for hours on end. You're choosing to, and if that choice fills you with misery, quitting seems the saner choice. Torturing oneself is pathological, not tough or constructive.

27 minutes ago, E Chu Ta said:

More to the point, why play if it makes you miserable? It's a game, every time you play it it's a choice. No one's making you move little spaceships around a mat for hours on end. You're choosing to, and if that choice fills you with misery, quitting seems the saner choice. Torturing oneself is pathological, not tough or constructive.

I'm not sure you understand what rants or those that rant are attempting at all, are you really reading the threads? It's not self torture. It's not doing things that are miserable. Get a clue my friend.

This is a game we love and are passionate about. Like anything, things that one loves to put time in, having fun with friends, etc. like this game, is important, is something worth supporting, something worth fighting for. Therefore, if there are blatant issues that can be exposed and discussed on an open way, like this forum, why not? Sometimes solutions arise from such a platform as this, be it the sharing of house rule or sometimes when FFG moves, actual FAQ releases. Either way, being silent about problems or negatives, only being allowed to spew happiness by rule, is terribly detrimental to any relationship, be it intimate or casual. This is a life lesson for you my friend; take it; let people be themselves and be open and honest....ultimately, in any relationship, allowing opinions and feelings blesses everyone. ?

20 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

That's a thoroughly unfair and disingenuous misrepresentation of the data.

Euu i'm not interpreting anything. The positions are indicated by a little number beside the builds names...

20 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Or 5 in the top10 if you look at Wave11 as a whole. More importantly: 273 Scum squads, 278 Rebel squads. That's almost perfectly equal (1.8% difference), but ignores that Rebels have two "new hotness" ships while Scum only got one. Based on this alone we'd already expect more Rebels, but they are equal.

# of time played is one part of the meta. The other is how well they perform they played. I did say "Rebels are getting worst than scum" and not "Rebels are worst than scum". At the moment you are correct when saying that they are close to each other at th moment: both have some OP options available to them. The reason i think Rebels will eventually be worst than scum is the leaked FAQ. If it turns out to be true scums will take a drop and chances are rebels will be left alone at the OP table

21 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Whose ability is worse than ScumNym

Is it? Was it rebel or the scum version that won the last major tournament (Gencon)? IMO they are both equal. The rebel version offers an amazing control tool wile the scum one is more direct offense/defense.

21 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

No disagreement here. Of course it also means that combining a better Nym with a more OP ship than Miranda *ahem Dengar* means the Rebel version is necessarily worse in comparison, not better.

And yet Dengar Nym wasnt in the final at Gencon....

21 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

That's reaching. Both Nymdash and Dashmiranda are clearly worse than all other squads in the Top10 (below 40% vs up to 49%!). Common nominator? Dash. Kanan is not even in the top10.

Dash is not far from the rest in term of OPness and certainly equal to Asajj. Both ships are far supperior to any large ship the Imperials have access to. Closest would be RAC which is at least 5-10 points more expansive than both ships, has weaker offense and worst dial...

21 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

When you say "all the amazing [...] regen", you mean Miranda? Because that's the only regen in top10. We don't need to discuss how problematic Miranda is but talking about "all the amazing regen" is intentionally misrepresenting the facts that only one single pilot has access to problematic regen by implying that all 4 options to regen are great.

R2D2.... Corran won Gencon. I did not count myself but i eard numbers as high as 16 shield regen in 1 match. Put that thing on Vader, the Inquisitor or Quickdraw and it's a whole new game...

21 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

When you say "all the amazing action economy", you mean what exactly? Rey? AdvancedSLAM? Because remember: it needs to be more amazing than Mindlink, K4 Security droid+unhinged. Otherwise your claim would be misleading or outright wrong.

Upgrades and action economy... Do i really have to name them all (just for actions: Rey, Kanan, Wookiee Commandos, Jyn, Chopper, R4, BB8, Kyle, etc)? They dont have to be better card for card than what scum have. You need to take into account the ships they are on and all the possible combinations. Selflessness,Integrated Astromech and R4D6 wouldnt be that amazing in the Imp or Scum factions. But combined with Lowrisk, Rex and Biggs... it's getting stupid. And dont forget the stress bot...

http://meta-wing.com/upgrades? Not counting titles or ship specific upgrades, the first unique Imperial card is Palp, in 71st position... The faction has 2 ships dedicated to crew/support (3 if you count the Tie shuttle) but nothing to gear them that would make it worth the point cost. It just got a really good upgrade with Hux but has no ship with enough greens to clear the stress it generates. Hux on a Shadowcaster would be a totally different story... Imagine Hux on a Caster with 2 Aggressor. That would be a competitive built. Instead we got a Lambda 2.0 and they nerfed the only upgrade that made us want to bring a Shuttle to the table.

12 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

On the light side of things, like your crafty pic insertion, people are passionate about something so they like to express themselves. And, much like some avid sports fans, giving time and money into something makes one invested and their opinion matters.

On the heavier side of things, remember, we players who put cash and time out for these games and tournaments ultimately pay the FFG designers salary; in a way, they work for us. So, when clear game imbalance is apparent and can be easily proved by consistent data, players complaints should be issued in an open forum; salt should be shaken at the gross errors; --and most importantly-- the designers should listen, see their mistakes, and quickly fix (FAQ in lieu of slow design and manufacturing repairs), for their jobs should depend on it.

Yeah, your meme is funny, but there are some real and actually simple problems and they are not being addressed.

I mostly agree, and your point is well made. The bit I differ on is where the line between something being 'broken' and somebody having a whinge depends on your point of view. Several people have posted genuine concerns in a constructive way, others have gone with; "They hate the Empire, it's a conspiracy!", my pic comment is more directed at that sort of approach

RoV

2 hours ago, Rat of Vengence said:

"They hate the Empire, it's a conspiracy!"

It's either conspiracy or incompetence! Gotta be one.

14 hours ago, Scumwing Apologist said:

That's right folks, as soon as something gets the least bit difficult, JUST QUIT! Don't engage or work towards fixing things, just give up!

You're not engaging or working towards anything. You're just whining on a forum.

1 hour ago, Scumwing Apologist said:

It's either conspiracy or incompetence! Gotta be one.

Not really; to say the game designers are incompetent is just not constructive.

With any competitive system something will always raise to top, it's the just natural order.

22 hours ago, gennataos said:

The best way for people to address issues is stop playing if they don't like the game anymore. Stop buying the little plastic ships. I really don't understand why someone would come to a forum and complain about the same things for weeks on end. It's just a game.

The best way for people to address issues is stop to voting if they don't like political games anymore. Just leave the country. I really don't understand why someone would go to a public place and complain about the same things for years on end. It's just a country, plenty of them around.

Thing is, some people are more passionate about this little game than you. They take it somewhat serious, so instead of just quitting they want it to improve in a way that like. It really is a small scale version of bigger, more important issues, and yes this might include that the guys complaining might be dead wrong, nonetheless they care about the game, so they will not (yet) just walk away from it. There might be a point when they will just leave, but if this point is reached you can expect several others taking their place, because in that case the game would not be in a very good state for the old user base.

7 hours ago, gennataos said:

You're not engaging or working towards anything. You're just whining on a forum.

Now on that you got a point, but it still normal to whine, and it is part of the process to get attention for things that bother you, so people will automatically whine and get their frustration out of their system. The forums are basically a shithole for emotional *******, that the main function for them, because for game advise there are plenty of better places anyway.

8 hours ago, gennataos said:

You're not engaging or working towards anything. You're just whining on a forum.

I'm doing what I can. It's not like I have the agency to write FAQs or influence the Devs by buying up billboards in the Minnesota area. So instead I'm here, trying to make light that A.) X-Wing has a significant balance problem and B.) Not fixing said problem is starting to look comical, and if FFG wants to compete in the tabletop miniatures industry they need to do better. I actually really do love X-Wing, which is why I'm here, slingin' my salt! If I didn't like the game, I'd just say 'frack it' and sell my minis on CL and GTFO!

22 hours ago, Bolshevik65 said:

That's the problem I have. I want to play but everybody DID quit...

....hey Gadge. Long time no see. That may be true in your personal circle of friends, but it's certainly not indicative of the scene here as a whole.

The UK has an absolutely thriving X-Wing community, with 400+ attending Yavin two years in a row, 300+ attending the Euros this summer and probably not far off those numbers will be heading to Nationals in Liverpool in a couple of weeks time. There's well attended store championships and game night events every single week, so if you really want to play, there's literally nothing stopping you other than, well, you.

5 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

....hey Gadge. Long time no see. That may be true in your personal circle of friends, but it's certainly not indicative of the scene here as a whole.

The UK has an absolutely thriving X-Wing community, with 400+ attending Yavin two years in a row, 300+ attending the Euros this summer and probably not far off those numbers will be heading to Nationals in Liverpool in a couple of weeks time. There's well attended store championships and game night events every single week, so if you really want to play, there's literally nothing stopping you other than, well, you.

I will not announce the death of X-Wing, but when growth stagnates, while you still have a healthy stream of newbies, you have one clear indicator of an issue with customer retention. Now I am not nearly as active in the scene as you are, so I can only talk in this regard about my limited scope, but growth here stagnated while still having a health stream of new players. The tournaments this year all were a little smaller than last year, and decent mix between new and old players was still there. Doesn't look like a big issue, but it doesn't seem like the game is keeping as much players as it could.

5 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

The tournaments this year all were a little smaller than last year, and decent mix between new and old players was still there. Doesn't look like a big issue, but it doesn't seem like the game is keeping as much players as it could.

Agreed.

It would take only a few surgical nerfs to a few OP mechanics, and this trend could happily be reversed. Then, FFG could take the time to make metals correctly and follow through on their promises to the golden goose ?

2 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

Agreed.

It would take only a few surgical nerfs to a few OP mechanics, and this trend could happily be reversed. Then, FFG could take the time to make metals correctly and follow through on their promises to the golden goose ?

That assumes the stagnation is purely mechanical. This game is getting old. People get burned out. And with an IP like Star Wars, do not underestimate people not getting into the unfamiliar ships.

1 hour ago, Sithborg said:

That assumes the stagnation is purely mechanical. This game is getting old. People get burned out. And with an IP like Star Wars, do not underestimate people not getting into the unfamiliar ships.

This is an unavoidable problem for any Star Wars game. The OT is pretty much the only universally liked part of Star Wars. That's what, 10 ships in total?

Beyond that you can either stagnate (then your game dies) or you have to go into territory people might not know (EU) or like (TFA/Rebels/Rogue One/Prequels).

4 hours ago, Sithborg said:

That assumes the stagnation is purely mechanical. This game is getting old. People get burned out. And with an IP like Star Wars, do not underestimate people not getting into the unfamiliar ships.

It was a perspective on the competitive scene, not into casual play or game nights. So we should be able to assume that mechanical reasons are the driving factor. Star Wars IP based reasons are a good point outside of the competitive scene, but you don't really get into competitive and stay there for years if you are not into the mechanics.

Simple attrition and getting burned out, now that is a legitimate point, but this is a challenge for game design and release schedules to keep players in the game. A balance between too much change and not enough change to keep things fresh enough. Furthermore, normal attrition is account already. Usually your growth rate should be higher than the attrition rate of your players. Once this changes the game is "dying", usually a slow death in which from a business perspectives investments are only made to keep milking the franchise, but not to significantly build and improve it. Stagnation and decline go hand in hand here.

But as said earlier, it's to early to declare the death of X-Wing. And with conditions and a solid release schedule I don't think that FFG is really finished with growing the game. Actually a 2nd edition with updated rules and core sets + full compatibility with the old expansions does not sound totally out of place imho. Most likely AFTER the new trilogy has finished.

41 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

But as said earlier, it's to early to declare the death of X-Wing...

Yup. Right in the middle of a highly successful mainstream Star Wars revival, with unprecedented box office takings and highly anticipated yearly cinema, TV and video game releases is definitely far too early.

It's quite easily to fall into the trap of projecting your own issues and insecurities (burnout, disenfranchisement etc) with the game onto the community as a whole (like Gadge did earlier), but the fact is that the game remains one of the top selling and top played miniatures products worldwide.

Sorry I couldn't reply sooner with the depth you deserve, so here we finally go:

On 1.9.2017 at 11:03 PM, Thormind said:

Euu i'm not interpreting anything. The positions are indicated by a little number beside the builds names...

You (maybe inadvertantly) took a limited time frame that supported your conclusion. And you didn't really look at it as "top10 of archetypes" is quite meaningless by itself if you don't take the amount of played squads into consideration. E.g. there could be 500 Denym squads on nr1 and nr2-10 could be a combined total of 300 rebel squads. In that case you would be wrong to conclude that rebels are the better faction even though they have more archetypes. They would be more diverse, but I don't think we're talking about diversity.

On 1.9.2017 at 11:03 PM, Thormind said:

# of time played is one part of the meta. The other is how well they perform they played. I did say "Rebels are getting worst than scum" and not "Rebels are worst than scum". At the moment you are correct when saying that they are close to each other at th moment: both have some OP options available to them. The reason i think Rebels will eventually be worst than scum is the leaked FAQ. If it turns out to be true scums will take a drop and chances are rebels will be left alone at the OP table

Which is why I included that number, too. And there Scum is better.

As for the FAQ: it's a good point that all 5 scum lists have one or more Jumpmasters, so the nerf could be quite bad for them. No illicit/astromech/1torpedo or no torpedoes? Let's see who really is affected:
Parattani is unchanged as these slots are unused.
Sick Fang Man uses Dengar with title but no torpedoes anyway, so no change there, too.
Denym loses the torpedo slots, so no plasma/cluster + EM. I wonder how these 5-6pts can be spent best. A fatter Nym could be bad, but he can be filled more.
DengarTel loses the ordnance (3 slots of 4 gone!) and the astro on Tel. This basically kills the list as far as I can tell.
TripleJump is basically unplayable with just one torpedo and no R4.

So I agree that at least two of those five lists will vanish, while two are unaffected. But my initial point of how archetypes are meaningless without squadnumbers becomes important again: these two lists affected are 67 squads out of 273. That is a large part, so clearly Scum will take a drop. The question then is whether these people switch to new scum lists or whether they take up rebel lists, and that we can't possibly tell from meta-wing.

On 1.9.2017 at 11:03 PM, Thormind said:

Is it? Was it rebel or the scum version that won the last major tournament (Gencon)? IMO they are both equal. The rebel version offers an amazing control tool wile the scum one is more direct offense/defense.

I don't think you can use Nathan's CorranNym for your point here because anyone else flying that list would have been tabled or rather not gotten there at all. But there were just three ScumNyms vs two RebelNyms in the top16, too, so such low numbers are problematic to say anything meaningful.

On 1.9.2017 at 11:03 PM, Thormind said:

And yet Dengar Nym wasnt in the final at Gencon....

And yet DengarNym is the by far most played archetype at the moment (152 out of the 273!). Finals at one tournament with that many incredibly good players doesn't mean much - in either way.

On 1.9.2017 at 11:03 PM, Thormind said:

Dash is not far from the rest in term of OPness and certainly equal to Asajj. Both ships are far supperior to any large ship the Imperials have access to. Closest would be RAC which is at least 5-10 points more expansive than both ships, has weaker offense and worst dial...

The comparison to imperials doesn't mean anything here, it's not even a question that imperials are way behind.
And Dash is clearly worse than the other ships/archetypes with maybe the exception of the VCX100 (as Kanan just slipped into the top10 compared to when I initially wrote the post, but he has even worse average percentile). How far exactly he is from the rest is up for discussion, but it's no question that he is below them.

On 1.9.2017 at 11:03 PM, Thormind said:

R2D2.... Corran won Gencon. I did not count myself but i eard numbers as high as 16 shield regen in 1 match. Put that thing on Vader, the Inquisitor or Quickdraw and it's a whole new game...

Sure but now you're moving the goal posts. We're looking at meta-wing among other reasons because stuff like Nathan+Corran is an outlier that's meaningless when discussing the strength of an entire faction. Nathan is amazing, but that doesn't make Corran amazing. So you are not really replying to my point here which was that only Miranda's regen is seen in the top10 of archetypes. I repeat myself because you didn't really reply at all to this point: "talking about "all the amazing regen" is intentionally misrepresenting the facts that only one single pilot has access to problematic regen by implying that all 4 options to regen are great. "

On 1.9.2017 at 11:03 PM, Thormind said:

Upgrades and action economy... Do i really have to name them all (just for actions: Rey, Kanan, Wookiee Commandos, Jyn, Chopper, R4, BB8, Kyle, etc)? They dont have to be better card for card than what scum have. You need to take into account the ships they are on and all the possible combinations. Selflessness,Integrated Astromech and R4D6 wouldnt be that amazing in the Imp or Scum factions. But combined with Lowrisk, Rex and Biggs... it's getting stupid. And dont forget the stress bot...

You wrote "all the amazing action economy" as reason why we see just 3 scum and 7 rebels in the top10. And I say you are wrong here, because Rebels would have to have BETTER action economy than Scum if that really was the reason. But they clearly don't, so that reason is wrong.

Note that I didn't mention the upgrades because there you are exactly right: Rebels have amazing upgrades which put them into the top10. But that's not action economy.

(that post sounds maybe harsher than I meant to. I already learned a lot from our discussion and thoroughly enjoy it!
And by now KananBiggs replaced Parattani in the top10 of archetypes, so it's 4:6 with now 252:321 squads Scum:Rebel, percentages being 42.32:42.28 still slightly in favor of Scum.)

I like all this discussion @Thormind @GreenDragoon!

I'd like to add in that the balance issue isn't very cut and dry, and I think the biggest difference between Rebels/Scum and Imperials is more about upgrades and slots than overpowered chassis or gimmicky combos. What were seeing now is the result of wave after wave after wave of Imperials receiving ships with restrictive upgrade slots, lack of enough Imperial Only upgrades that are actually worth any salt, and release after release of Rebel/Scum upgrade cards that are too good, and often restricted for Imperials. Just nerfing JM5K at this point isn't going to do the trick. There's been such a creative drought in Imperial design that we really need a concerted effort to buff the faction- I'd say in the realm of 15-20 new upgrade cards, including a bunch of titles that WILDLY open up upgrade slots to bring the faction up to par with S/R.

1 hour ago, Scumwing Apologist said:

I like all this discussion @Thormind @GreenDragoon!

I'd like to add in that the balance issue isn't very cut and dry, and I think the biggest difference between Rebels/Scum and Imperials is more about upgrades and slots than overpowered chassis or gimmicky combos. What were seeing now is the result of wave after wave after wave of Imperials receiving ships with restrictive upgrade slots, lack of enough Imperial Only upgrades that are actually worth any salt, and release after release of Rebel/Scum upgrade cards that are too good, and often restricted for Imperials. Just nerfing JM5K at this point isn't going to do the trick. There's been such a creative drought in Imperial design that we really need a concerted effort to buff the faction- I'd say in the realm of 15-20 new upgrade cards, including a bunch of titles that WILDLY open up upgrade slots to bring the faction up to par with S/R.

Amen

On 9/1/2017 at 11:49 PM, the1hodgy said:

Not really; to say the game designers are incompetent is just not constructive.

With any competitive system something will always raise to top, it's the just natural order.

Incompetent is just a strongly worded statement of the case when looking at a mistake that has been made. As an example in this, its a widely, but not universal, held belief that the Jumpmaster expansion is a mistake by the part of FFG. There are only two possible explanations:

• They made a mistake on accident (incompetence)
• They made "a mistake" on purpose (conspiracy)

Perhaps a little too strongly worded, but still an applicable explanation of the two possible causes.

15 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Sorry I couldn't reply sooner with the depth you deserve

:-) Just before i start... Amazing does not equal OP...

15 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

You (maybe inadvertantly) took a limited time frame that supported your conclusion. And you didn't really look at it as "top10 of archetypes" is quite meaningless by itself if you don't take the amount of played squads into consideration. E.g. there could be 500 Denym squads on nr1 and nr2-10 could be a combined total of 300 rebel squads. In that case you would be wrong to conclude that rebels are the better faction even though they have more archetypes. They would be more diverse, but I don't think we're talking about diversity.

I took the default time frame when i opened the website, which was the most recent. Lets look at "Wave 11-Today" http://meta-wing.com/ship_combos?ranking_start=2017-07-13&ranking_end=2017-09-03&large_tournament_multiplier=true&widespread_use_multiplier=true&use_ranking_data=all&tournament_type=&

Despite being the most played build, Denym is behind Fairship. You have 4 scum squad in the top 10 and 6 rebel. It still support my point that rebels are now even with scum and sooner or later will be better. Which was the original goal of my post and the reason why this argument started (i believe? been too long now, not even sure :-)

15 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Which is why I included that number, too. And there Scum is better.

I believe number played and win % are meaningless without each other. But past a certain point where we have enough data (ie #squad) to get reliable statistics, the most important stats of the 2 become Win ratio. Lets also not forget events importance, which has an impact on the ranking. Overall i believe the formula used by the site creator is quite good at properly ranking the builds. The maths provided on the web site do make sense.

15 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

As for the FAQ: it's a good point that all 5 scum lists have one or more Jumpmasters, so the nerf could be quite bad for them. No illicit/astromech/1torpedo or no torpedoes? Let's see who really is affected:

Parattani is unchanged as these slots are unused.
Sick Fang Man uses Dengar with title but no torpedoes anyway, so no change there, too.
Denym loses the torpedo slots, so no plasma/cluster + EM. I wonder how these 5-6pts can be spent best. A fatter Nym could be bad, but he can be filled more.
DengarTel loses the ordnance (3 slots of 4 gone!) and the astro on Tel. This basically kills the list as far as I can tell.
TripleJump is basically unplayable with just one torpedo and no R4.

So I agree that at least two of those five lists will vanish, while two are unaffected. But my initial point of how archetypes are meaningless without squadnumbers becomes important again: these two lists affected are 67 squads out of 273. That is a large part, so clearly Scum will take a drop. The question then is whether these people switch to new scum lists or whether they take up rebel lists, and that we can't possibly tell from meta-wing.

If the power lvl drop, so will the # of squad played. Also the squads that become less powerful/unplayable might have a bigger impact on the rebel faction than what the "# played" might suggest. I know for sure that a lot of players dont bring certain builds to a tournament because of the high risk of facing triple scouts... Those builds might be a good counter to the remaining powerful scum list.

15 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

I don't think you can use Nathan's CorranNym for your point here because anyone else flying that list would have been tabled or rather not gotten there at all. But there were just three ScumNyms vs two RebelNyms in the top16, too, so such low numbers are problematic to say anything meaningful.

I used the Corran build in reply to your statement that Rebels have more than 1 regen option. It's true that Nathan is a great player and he's been playing with Corran like forever. But i believe it's the combination with Nym that made his win possible. You must take out Corran as fast as possible if you want a chance to win. It's always been like that. But now you have an OP ship/pilot pounding on you wile doing so...

15 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

The comparison to imperials doesn't mean anything here, it's not even a question that imperials are way behind.

And Dash is clearly worse than the other ships/archetypes with maybe the exception of the VCX100 (as Kanan just slipped into the top10 compared to when I initially wrote the post, but he has even worse average percentile). How far exactly he is from the rest is up for discussion, but it's no question that he is below them.

Imperials would be fine without the powercreep weve been seeing from the last few waves. Problem is theyve not only been left out of the creep, they got the only counters they had nerfed.

About Dash, it may be a question of opinion here. IMO hes just as strong as Asajj.

15 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Sure but now you're moving the goal posts. We're looking at meta-wing among other reasons because stuff like Nathan+Corran is an outlier that's meaningless when discussing the strength of an entire faction. Nathan is amazing, but that doesn't make Corran amazing. So you are not really replying to my point here which was that only Miranda's regen is seen in the top10 of archetypes. I repeat myself because you didn't really reply at all to this point: "talking about "all the amazing regen" is intentionally misrepresenting the facts that only one single pilot has access to problematic regen by implying that all 4 options to regen are great. "

Sorry but if you think R2 isnt a great regen upgrade, i just dont know what to say. He is in the top 10. Open up the fairShips Rebels builds that are in 1st position and youll see R2 on Biggs in some list... Corran just won a major event and was in the final of world 2016. If thats not amazing, i dont know what is...

15 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

You wrote "all the amazing action economy" as reason why we see just 3 scum and 7 rebels in the top10. And I say you are wrong here, because Rebels would have to have BETTER action economy than Scum if that really was the reason. But they clearly don't, so that reason is wrong.

Note that I didn't mention the upgrades because there you are exactly right: Rebels have amazing upgrades which put them into the top10. But that's not action economy.

I wrote: "They just got an OP ship that boost their already OP Biggs. And they got access to Nym, the OP scum pilot... They can combine with OP Miranda, OP Sabine, close to OP Dash and Kanan (same lvl as Shadowcaster) and all the amazing upgrades, action economy and regen they have."

It's not a single factor that makes the faction what it is. It's the combination of many elements. And an upgrade, be it a mod, a crew, an action economy, a regen source does not necessarily have to be in the top 10 to be amazing. It's the versatility that all those options bring that put rebels in such a great position.

Look at fairship and take all the builds that finished 1st since wave 11th release. In those squads you will see: stress generation (R3) + firepower in a single ship (Jess + R3), Debuff (Rex), target control (Rex and Biggs), action economy (Rey, Wookie Commando), damage mitigation (integrated mech. selflessness, R4, breach specialist, reinforce), regen (R2), added EPT slot (R2d6)... Just there you can see that amazing versatility in action... You can see amazing unique action economy, regen and other upgrades.

15 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

(that post sounds maybe harsher than I meant to. I already learned a lot from our discussion and thoroughly enjoy it!

And by now KananBiggs replaced Parattani in the top10 of archetypes, so it's 4:6 with now 252:321 squads Scum:Rebel, percentages being 42.32:42.28 still slightly in favor of Scum.)

Dont worry, i like those kind of civilized exchange (or debate). I have them once in a wile on these forums. It makes me practice my english (not my 1st language) :-)