Yup. Nym's strengths are moving last and doing unavoidable damage with perfect information.

Coming down to PS8 to get Determination negates both of those benefits, and doing so to avoid Kylo is pretty much the epitome of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

SPeaking as a RAC/Draw player, I'd be delighted to see a Nym at PS8. He'd die. Possibly in a single round of firing. 4 dice from RAC then 2x4 from QD has a decent chance of exploding him.

Considering the source, it's not exactly surprising we're going off on a wild tangent.

I've no idea why any of you are taking Determination Nym remotely seriously. Obvious troll is obvious.

6 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I've no idea why any of you are taking Determination Nym remotely seriously. Obvious troll is obvious.

Going to NOVA this weekend with Nym has made me this way...

7 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I've no idea why any of you are taking Determination Nym remotely seriously. Obvious troll is obvious.

https://xkcd.com/386/

Don't complain. At least Mindlink is gone, and triple Scouts are gone. Without FAQ interference I bet wave 12 will eradicate Nym. Adopt and destroy! Or die horribly

Just now, Oldpara said:

triple Scouts are gone.

lol nah

Still well up there.

2 minutes ago, Oldpara said:

Don't complain. At least Mindlink is gone, and triple Scouts are gone. Without FAQ interference I bet wave 12 will eradicate Nym. Adopt and destroy! Or die horribly

Did you even click the link in the first post? Triple Jumps is FAR from gone (7th place). Mindlink is still the 14th most common upgrade, just behind Cruise missiles (which are everywhere). Every Scum list has a JM5K in it. Don't post if you're just going to spew misinformation. Many Opinions Really Offer Nothing.

1 minute ago, thespaceinvader said:

lol nah

Still well up there.

Agree they are still competitive and powerful, but not popular anymore. How many in top32 of 4 finished Nationals? 2-3? Ppl always complained not because Triple Jumps were unbeatable, but were too popular. Now it's gone.

I think Triple Scouts may well shake out as the best list, when it all settles down.

1 minute ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I think Triple Scouts may well shake out as the best list, when it all settles down.

Agree. They can melt Nym pretty quickly even with primary weapon.

7 minutes ago, Oldpara said:

Agree. They can melt Nym pretty quickly even with primary weapon.

They melt everything..
And Nym is not fast enough to avoid the alpha. Anyone have any strategies for combating them using Nym?

42 minutes ago, Scumwing Apologist said:

Did you even click the link in the first post?

I'm pretty sure @Oldpara knows how the JM5K is faring in the meta. And Attanni Mindlink, for that matter.

6 hours ago, ModernPenguin said:

Well the upper levels of play are just starting. We've had, what.. 3-4 nationals so far?
I agree that regionals/nationals/worlds show a better competitive meta than store championships.

But I do disagree that there was better showing in the defenders era.
Rebels was almost completely absent from the top tables, and many considered it a weak faction at the time.
I think the reason imperials does not show as well on meta-wing, is that the lists are very varied, with different aces and approaches to the higher ends of imperial play. Unlike rebel and scum that only has 2-3 lists that does well, which shows easier on meta-wing. At least that is my understanding of how the site works, correct me if I am wrong!

As you say. From a certain point of view.. I would say that a faction that has decent representation after the cut at a big tournament is in a healthy spot. Anything after the cut is vastly up to individual skill level, and matchups (not unlike swiss, but you can salvage a bad match to a decent MoV).

We still have a couple of System Opens and a Worlds after the nerf to draw data from. While that was hot off the heels of the nerf, the nationals thus far haven't really shown them to be poor data points.

While I'll agree that the deadeye-scouts time was about on level with this current meta, it was also moved on faster. By this time last years, the first attempt to nerf deadeye scouts had already been rolled out (Agromech). The decisive one on Deadeye itself still didn't come until October, I think, but at least an early attempt was made. And this was all in time for that year's worlds, where a rebel list made it to the top table despite the Defenders running around.

While yes the minority, Rebels still managed to get players into top places at tournaments during this time frame, including the System Opens before the nerf went into affect. They might have been less popular, but they were still competitive. Imps aren't having that kind luck.

And I'm honestly not using meta-wing at all for this argument. Those rankings don't matter to me as much as actual tournament results. It that Imps have a diverse base of Lists out and about a good thing? Yeah, but not at the cost of their performance.

6 hours ago, Ralgon said:

That's the problem though, "in the right hands". when you start talking about the higher levels of meta the extra strain of using a list that's not "meta" will leave it in the dust, because the pro's aren't going to risk mental fatigue of the day costing them finals. same with complex lists and time (that aren't abusing it with tag mov and run)

Right. It's all risk/reward. Once upon a time, Imperial Lists were worth the risk. Now...

*sigh* double post

Triple post

On 28.8.2017 at 8:26 PM, Kaptin Krunch said:

It still has the same problems that 40k as a system has- it's only really useful for narrative games, not tactics/strategy.

8th also has a problem with 1st turn alpha strikes.

It's still miles better than the **** infested ******* that was 7th though. As an Ork player, I had a lot of 'fun' putting my models down just to pick them all up by turn 2 when they all died to scatbikes.

Thank you. That last sentence (sadly) sums up the reason I jumped out of 40k (played Dark Angels and CSM). And the Alpha Strike thing- well, let's say I tried getting back in, just taking things I liked the look of, almost tabled the poor guy in spite of average rolls in the second turn and got accused of just bringing OP stuff (Land Raider Redeemer?) while not knowing anything more than the base rules. Only thing I had was first turn shooting. (Sad rant over.)

I don't want to rag on 40k, though. I still love the art style and the game is fun in short bursts.

But: by comparison, X Wing pretty much on itself made me a Star Wars fan again. Our meta has problems. Yes. They need to be fixed. Yes. But on the whole it is nowhere near abysmal.

Taking casual play into account, it's actually looking very sunny outside, even with that ominous competitive cloud hanging overhead.

North American Championship Top 16 meta analysis. Nothing ground-breaking, but wanted to share:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJsf9zJwoog

3 hours ago, SabineKey said:

We still have a couple of System Opens and a Worlds after the nerf to draw data from. While that was hot off the heels of the nerf, the nationals thus far haven't really shown them to be poor data points.

While I'll agree that the deadeye-scouts time was about on level with this current meta, it was also moved on faster. By this time last years, the first attempt to nerf deadeye scouts had already been rolled out (Agromech). The decisive one on Deadeye itself still didn't come until October, I think, but at least an early attempt was made. And this was all in time for that year's worlds, where a rebel list made it to the top table despite the Defenders running around.

While yes the minority, Rebels still managed to get players into top places at tournaments during this time frame, including the System Opens before the nerf went into affect. They might have been less popular, but they were still competitive. Imps aren't having that kind luck.

And I'm honestly not using meta-wing at all for this argument. Those rankings don't matter to me as much as actual tournament results. It that Imps have a diverse base of Lists out and about a good thing? Yeah, but not at the cost of their performance.

Right. It's all risk/reward. Once upon a time, Imperial Lists were worth the risk. Now...

Well said, and I'll answer your rhetorical statement, "Once upon a time, Imperial Lists were worth the risk. Now..." they're clearly not. Just look at the data from numbers of tournament entries in each faction and see the disparities as they move towards the top table; the math is apparent. Put simply, this is the most imbalanced the game has been since Scum was first introduced without their current OP-power ships. The Imperial faction has been on a steady slide (or push some might say) towards absolute mediocrity and are now the sad face of balance in a truly imbalanced game.

Now where's my tea?

It is what it is. It won't change.

Playing Imperials at NOVA this weekend and fully expect to get wrecked but I am too much like Tarkin "Retreat in our moment of triumph!!!!....I think you over estimate their chances!"

1 hour ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

North American Championship Top 16 meta analysis. Nothing ground-breaking, but wanted to share:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJsf9zJwoog

...good on ya there mate ?

He's right, it's clear Rebels have the power tools and Scum is looking to pass. Imperials? What's that?

The metrics might say the imperial system is outdated and outnumbered, but... ... ...shut up!

My perspective on Imps v the other two factions is that what really kills Imps is variance. Scum are good and Rebels have regen but Imps ruled the roost for ages relying on one of two things (a) Palp and (b) x7. Nerfing those things brought Imps back into the same position they were before these cards, which is some nice toys but sooner or later blank greens just obliterate you. Palp and x7 papered over the variance and you could survive a bad roll. What we need for Imperials to see top tables more is for more toys that let you support other ships's defence like lowhhrick, or re-roll defence dice like serissu, or similar. Instead we get harpoon missiles, which are going to really put a dent in formation flying (thanks, Biggs!).

1 minute ago, The Inquisitor said:

My perspective on Imps v the other two factions is that what really kills Imps is variance.

I don't think it's even variance, more flat out unavoidable damage. Between bombs, the proliferation of fat turrets and ordnance that are virtually guaranteed to throw 3-4 hits and a crit vs. 3 evade dice, and the resurgence of autoblaster on Nym it's hard running a ship that can only take a couple hits.

9 minutes ago, The Inquisitor said:

My perspective on Imps v the other two factions is that what really kills Imps is variance. Scum are good and Rebels have regen but Imps ruled the roost for ages relying on one of two things (a) Palp and (b) x7. Nerfing those things brought Imps back into the same position they were before these cards, which is some nice toys but sooner or later blank greens just obliterate you. Palp and x7 papered over the variance and you could survive a bad roll. What we need for Imperials to see top tables more is for more toys that let you support other ships's defence like lowhhrick, or re-roll defence dice like serissu, or similar. Instead we get harpoon missiles, which are going to really put a dent in formation flying (thanks, Biggs!).

The other problem is that no matter how well the dice treat you, Imperials only have two ships that have the hull/shield to stand up in the meta - the SF and the Defender - and those don't have the damage output to kill anything before the game ends or the Imperials are dead themselves.. It's a complicated and sad state for the Empire.

And FFG really f*cked up making Nym PS 8.. I mean.. Come on.