1 hour ago, Cerve said:

Dunno, I'm seeing a lot of empire in the SC topic :-/ I think that Empire is finally rising, Empire players are discovering some nice building.

You mean this nice building? With Scum on top and Rebels flying in circles around it?

1 hour ago, Kdubb said:

French nationals had like, half the cut imperial.

Too bad they couldn't finish the deal and a Nym list won out in the end, basically nullifying their attempt at a counter point.

The final of French Nats sums up the struggles you will face as an Imperial Player.

You will have to fly really hard to remove the largest threat, sacrificing some of your ships along the way.

If you make 1 mistake you can lose a match.

And when you lose or give up too much mov to win then it is harder to make the cut.

Regardless Vader and Quickdraw with support or RACLoand friend (probably Vader or Quickdraw) is likely the best option for Empire right now.

I can't comment on how easy or notbitvis to fly the Rebel or Scum stuff. I don't play them. Turrets make things easier though.

While I'm not saying faction balance is perfect right now, things aren't nearly as bad as you make them out to be.

Unlike Rebels and Scum, which flock around specific lists, imps have very solid internal balance- You can put together any three (or 2 if you're using RAC) of a rather long list of ships and it'll work. Therefore, they dodge the top of meta-wing simply because they don't have specific broken combos.

Rebels are probably the worse offenders at internal balance.
Their basic ships are so bad they only function with crew/astro/EPT/buddy pilot combos, but then they get kinda ridiculous. I challenge any rebel player to field something that isnt Biggs/Low-protected, Hyperdash, Miranda, or Rey+Finn and actually perform decently. While im sure someone would find something, odds are they wont because theyre balanced so....badly that they need the upgrade combos those ships offer or the Biggs/Low-protection to do anything.

Scum arent much better but they suffer more from most of their good/great ships being large 50+pt behemoths, so their listbuilding is kinda stagnated. Only triple ships you see are abusing Attani (or Manaroo or both), even the tripboats. And whats a 4ship scum list? lol

Imperials...dont use the Lambda or non-deathrain Punisher and you can practically slap anything together and the list makes sense. Its those ridiculous combos you have to face that make them feel not so great because of auto-hits or auto-evades or Biggs/Low protection preventing you from killing the real threat outright.
I think Scum can be salvaged to fix this so theyre more internally balanced like Imperials (the supposed JM5K nerf is a good start, both because it gets people off the Jm5K bandwagon and face it that ship is op) but i highly, highly doubt they could salvage rebels at this point. They will always be jank until they just rerelease them entirely, tweaking their stats and costs and upgrades accordingly. Always and forever trash until you find a sweetspot with upgrades that just screams HOLY CRAP THATS INSANE! - which usually leads to other players going "...seriously thats legal?"

15 minutes ago, Elavion said:

Unlike Rebels and Scum, which flock around specific lists, imps have very solid internal balance- You can put together any three (or 2 if you're using RAC) of a rather long list of ships and it'll work. Therefore, they dodge the top of meta-wing simply because they don't have specific broken combos.

If you're trying to suggest that List Juggler glosses over less used ships when viewed by list, you're right to some degree, though the 'magic' score will account for that somewhat. To get the best picture, though, you just have to sort by specific pilots:

Meta-Analyzer by Pilot

In which case, you are right, there's a bit of a better picture painted, but it's still a dark dark place for Imperials. The best Imp is Quickdraw at 10th place, which I don't think I need to explain is terrible for the faction. And what's funny about that is that QD sees a LOT of play, as much as Dengar or Biggs, so it's not like the data is missing.

Point being is this: March 6th FAQ took a huge dump on Imps 'power combos' yet left the Scum and Rebel 'power combos' relatively untouched. Result: Game balance took a nose-dive and it's gotten measurably worse since Wave 11 hit.

5 minutes ago, Scumwing Apologist said:

Point being is this: March 6th FAQ took a huge dump on Imps 'power combos' yet left the Scum and Rebel 'power combos' relatively untouched. Result: Game balance took a nose-dive and it's gotten measurably worse since Wave 11 hit.

Yeah... the x7 and Palpatine nerfs. Time for a roll back?

They were nerfs, by any measuring stick, but I think the psychological hit was bigger than the mathematical one. They're both still usable, but the amount of Palp Aces and Commonwealth Defender lists being played dropped so dramatically after the nerf it was almost as if people didn't give the revised cards a chance.

But would rolling those nerfs back actually make any difference? Soontir, the Inquistor etc would still be as vulnerable as ever to bombing runs... well, until the reworded Advanced SLAM hits, anyway.

1 minute ago, FTS Gecko said:

Yeah... the x7 and Palpatine nerfs. Time for a roll back?

They were nerfs, by any measuring stick, but I think the psychological hit was bigger than the mathematical one. They're both still usable, but the amount of Palp Aces and Commonwealth Defender lists being played dropped so dramatically after the nerf it was almost as if people didn't give the revised cards a chance.

But would rolling those nerfs back actually make any difference? Soontir, the Inquistor etc would still be as vulnerable as ever to bombing runs... well, until the reworded Advanced SLAM hits, anyway.

It's either rollback the FAQ, and see what happens (it might not help Imps much) or dump on the power combos for Scum and Rebels across the board ( which tends to tick people off). I personally think rolling back x7 and Palp to their old state is easier than trying to nerf JM5ks, Biggs, Miranda, Adv. Slam, Sabine, and Nym all in one go. I'm not sure this game can survive another Nerfageddon.

13 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

Yeah... the x7 and Palpatine nerfs. Time for a roll back?

They were nerfs, by any measuring stick, but I think the psychological hit was bigger than the mathematical one. They're both still usable, but the amount of Palp Aces and Commonwealth Defender lists being played dropped so dramatically after the nerf it was almost as if people didn't give the revised cards a chance.

But would rolling those nerfs back actually make any difference? Soontir, the Inquistor etc would still be as vulnerable as ever to bombing runs... well, until the reworded Advanced SLAM hits, anyway.

While there is the psychological element to consider, I still think the mathematical side is the bigger hit. While people just going with the flow of the meta have left x7 and Palp behind, you still have the dedication Imperial player base who have been trying to get those cards working at higher levels of play, but with only limited success. Believe me, some of my friends have been working on this since the nerf was announced and they haven't found answers they are satisfied with.

As for a roll back on the nerf... as the results of System Opens and Worlds came in (post-nerf) I was told over and over that this was the first step in bringing everything into balance. I would like to believe that is true, but that next step better come sooner rather than later. That means bitting the bullet and making hard decisions, including what to do with the Jumpmaster chassis itself. But if FFG is unwilling to make that kind of call, then I do say undoing the Palp and x7 nerf is better than the situation that we have currently. Maybe even a rework/scale back of the nerf (i.e. x7 vulnerable to blocking, but not stress) might be enough, but something has to happen.

57 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

Rebels are probably the worse offenders at internal balance.
Their basic ships are so bad they only function with crew/astro/EPT/buddy pilot combos, but then they get kinda ridiculous. I challenge any rebel player to field something that isnt Biggs/Low-protected, Hyperdash, Miranda, or Rey+Finn and actually perform decently. While im sure someone would find something, odds are they wont because theyre balanced so....badly that they need the upgrade combos those ships offer or the Biggs/Low-protection to do anything.

Blair. Bunke.

Well, let's face it, the Palpatine and x7 cards haven't actually changed. so from that point of view a roll back would be easy lol.

Either that or you extend the x7 mechanic to other similar mechanics, for example K4 Security Droid. Personally I'm in favour of sticking to the printed cards wherever possible, so I'd prefer the former over the latter. One reduces the number of FAQ entries, the other increases them.

One year ago, rebels were unplayable.
Triple defenders and triple jumpmasters dominated the scene.
I complained. I said that was unfair.
Imperial players simply said... "fly better", "play triple defenders", "play scum", "don't wine"...

Well, now you couldn't even imagine how amused I am with the imperial players complains.

2 minutes ago, pflrocha said:

One year ago, rebels were unplayable.
Triple defenders and triple jumpmasters dominated the scene.
I complained. I said that was unfair.
Imperial players simply said... "fly better", "play triple defenders", "play scum", "don't wine"...

Well, now you couldn't even imagine how amused I am with the imperial players complains.

And yet still managed to win some upper level events, including going to the top table in Worlds.

Rebels were far from unplayable a year ago....
They just lacked Low to make the Jank List a true menace rather than have Braylen in there for stress. That list was still mean, it just lacked the guaranteed "First attack literally will not hurt biggs" instead it was "First attack will only piss biggs off but hes fine"
Miranda was still a thing, as was hyperdash or kananghost.

Plus, neither i or any other actual imperial players (not bandwagon people that are pissed their meta list got nerfed so now they gotta buy another one) never said imperials were unplayable. Difficult =/= unplayable. Like i said in my other post they are actually remarkably well balanced internally right now since very little screams pathetic or strong

3 hours ago, Vineheart01 said:

I think Scum can be salvaged to fix this so theyre more internally balanced like Imperials (the supposed JM5K nerf is a good start, both because it gets people off the Jm5K bandwagon and face it that ship is op) but i highly, highly doubt they could salvage rebels at this point. They will always be jank until they just rerelease them entirely, tweaking their stats and costs and upgrades accordingly. Always and forever trash until you find a sweetspot with upgrades that just screams HOLY CRAP THATS INSANE! - which usually leads to other players going "...seriously thats legal?"

except it doesn't. The problem in the scum meta now isn't the jm5k in bulk anymore it's dengar, and unless more has come out that leak nerf won't touch him. slap something that will last 2+ turns and even do a smidge of damage or even just action control with him and you have a list....

Never had an issue with Dengar except when paired with Manaroo pre-nerf.
Its still multiple JM5Ks that give me crap. One is simple enough, two is impossible to fully dodge. Dengar pays through the nose for that revenge shot and its not hard to avoid it (or punish him for it)

19 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

Dengar pays through the nose for that revenge shot and its not hard to avoid it (or punish him for it)

What have you been smoking, Vineheart, because it looks like some powerful stuff.

In his current form, Dengar's at least 5 points undercosted and has the most powerful pilot ability in the game by a country mile. Comparable big turrets in the other factions have trouble staying under 60 points, while Dengar starts struggling to spend points after reaching 53. The only other fat turret in his price range is a 52-point Lone Wolf Dash, who has to put up with -2 PS, reduced action efficiency, and not being able to shoot at range 1. Also, he doesn't bloody well shoot twice.

As to Dengar's return shot being easy to avoid, he's PS9 with a built-in barrel roll and a white reverse move. In what bizzare universe is that an easy arc to stay out?

15 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

Never had an issue with Dengar except when paired with Manaroo pre-nerf.
Its still multiple JM5Ks that give me crap. One is simple enough, two is impossible to fully dodge. Dengar pays through the nose for that revenge shot and its not hard to avoid it (or punish him for it)

That's really different from my experience. I haven't seen what I consider a tier 1 scum build that didn't include Dengar since the CROC released.

Also, easy to avoid a PS 9 large base with the best dial in the game who also has barrel roll and doesn't need his other actions because of K4 and expertise..? Wtf?

2 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

Well, let's face it, the Palpatine and x7 cards haven't actually changed. so from that point of view a roll back would be easy lol.

Either that or you extend the x7 mechanic to other similar mechanics, for example K4 Security Droid. Personally I'm in favour of sticking to the printed cards wherever possible, so I'd prefer the former over the latter. One reduces the number of FAQ entries, the other increases them.

I'm not sure it's the x7 nerf that hurt as much as the Palp nerf. As noted, Palp-Aces was borderline unplayable already, the nerf to Palp just put them in the ground. It's not that he's very powerful, per se, just that being able to use him reactively gives you a significant boost to defensive rolls - you only need to pull him out WHEN YOU REALLY NEED HIM, and you aren't risking 'wasting' his once-a-turn-ability on a roll that turns out fine.

It's a very little difference on offense, but makes a HUUUUUUGE difference for defense.

I'd be okay keeping the x7 nerf if we could revert the Palp nerf, alongside the wave of rumored nerfs coming in the next FAQ. I think that'd be enough to straighten out some options for the Empire.

30 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

Never had an issue with Dengar except when paired with Manaroo pre-nerf.
Its still multiple JM5Ks that give me crap. One is simple enough, two is impossible to fully dodge. Dengar pays through the nose for that revenge shot and its not hard to avoid it (or punish him for it)

and yet he's still had a showing at the top end of the scum lists since the deadeye nerf.

I'm not denying he's strong, i'm saying hes beatable. I have never felt like i couldnt fight him no matter what EXCEPT when he had manaroo around.
Dengar players all have the same issue: they think hes unstoppable. Even at the top tables of a 40+ player tournament where every list (except mine and 1 rebel jank) had Dengar, they all do the same bloody thing. They just send him down my throat, and its predictable as ****. Bump him, no barrelroll/actions. Stress-attack him, no expertise. Give him an Expertised/FCS (who already has a TL on him) Quickdraw to stare at and dare his dumbass to revenge shot her (she might go down, but she would easily take him with her or leave him whimpering for another ship to sneeze at).

I play mindgames, and it works except against a choice few that play me regularly and know im bluffing/what im planning out of experience. Only reason i havnt gone to a major tournament with hundreds of players is because unfortunately i am an adult and must do adult things to get money and such, so i cant afford the time.

The amount of times ive faced a list like oh... i dunno... denym? and the opponent actually made a snarky comment about not being worried about my list and then i wreck his face off is hilarious.
But i cant do that against multiple jm5k's sporting k4 + attani. You can only block one of them, and attani/k4 gives him attack mods anyway. So its literally down to can i blow him up before he wittles me down because i 100% CANNOT evade or limit that list's offense in any way other than killing a ship before he kills me. That is the most uphill battle i've faced since the last faq, and while ive beaten it ive lost more than ive won against it.

4 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

I'm not denying he's strong, i'm saying hes beatable. I have never felt like i couldnt fight him no matter what EXCEPT when he had manaroo around.
Dengar players all have the same issue: they think hes unstoppable. Even at the top tables of a 40+ player tournament where every list (except mine and 1 rebel jank) had Dengar, they all do the same bloody thing. They just send him down my throat, and its predictable as ****. Bump him, no barrelroll/actions. Stress-attack him, no expertise. Give him an Expertised/FCS (who already has a TL on him) Quickdraw to stare at and dare his dumbass to revenge shot her (she might go down, but she would easily take him with her or leave him whimpering for another ship to sneeze at).

I play mindgames, and it works except against a choice few that play me regularly and know im bluffing/what im planning out of experience. Only reason i havnt gone to a major tournament with hundreds of players is because unfortunately i am an adult and must do adult things to get money and such, so i cant afford the time.

The amount of times ive faced a list like oh... i dunno... denym? and the opponent actually made a snarky comment about not being worried about my list and then i wreck his face off is hilarious.
But i cant do that against multiple jm5k's sporting k4 + attani. You can only block one of them, and attani/k4 gives him attack mods anyway. So its literally down to can i blow him up before he wittles me down because i 100% CANNOT evade or limit that list's offense in any way other than killing a ship before he kills me. That is the most uphill battle i've faced since the last faq, and while ive beaten it ive lost more than ive won against it.

I read this several times and simply cannot make sense of it...

When playing Denym I want to bump with Dengar (and Nym for that matter), it's not like he actually needs actions and it's one less ship shooting at him that turn. Yeah, stress messes with expertise but the reality is that there's not much stress around and what little is present is fairly avoidable by a PS 9 ship with large base BR/boost and dies really fast. Based on your experiences it sounds like you play some bad/inexperienced Dengar players. He's so good that a lot of people use him as a crutch and don't bother with strategy since flying straight at them works fairly often, but given even flying skill he'll utterly crush anything the Imperials are fielding these days and big tournament results solidly back that up. Congrats on being a relatively big fish in a small pond, it doesn't make you Jaws.

It may also be a factor of the list(s) you're using. Maybe 3xJ5k really is better against those particular lists, but it's not better against the meta in general.

P.S. I'm the starting quarterback for a an NFL team. I mean I'm not but I totally could be if I wasn't too busy being an adult and bothered to try out...

2 hours ago, DR4CO said:

What have you been smoking, Vineheart, because it looks like some powerful stuff.

In his current form, Dengar's at least 5 points undercosted and has the most powerful pilot ability in the game by a country mile. Comparable big turrets in the other factions have trouble staying under 60 points, while Dengar starts struggling to spend points after reaching 53. The only other fat turret in his price range is a 52-point Lone Wolf Dash, who has to put up with -2 PS, reduced action efficiency, and not being able to shoot at range 1. Also, he doesn't bloody well shoot twice.

As to Dengar's return shot being easy to avoid, he's PS9 with a built-in barrel roll and a white reverse move. In what bizzare universe is that an easy arc to stay out?

Can't agree enough. He's the best pilot in the game, hands down, with Miranda a mile behind in second place.

53pts, for one of the best jousters in the game.... with a PS9 BR.... and a PWT? Yes please!

1 hour ago, Vineheart01 said:

I'm not denying he's strong, i'm saying hes beatable. I have never felt like i couldnt fight him no matter what EXCEPT when he had manaroo around.
Dengar players all have the same issue: they think hes unstoppable. Even at the top tables of a 40+ player tournament where every list (except mine and 1 rebel jank) had Dengar, they all do the same bloody thing. They just send him down my throat, and its predictable as ****. Bump him, no barrelroll/actions. Stress-attack him, no expertise. Give him an Expertised/FCS (who already has a TL on him) Quickdraw to stare at and dare his dumbass to revenge shot her (she might go down, but she would easily take him with her or leave him whimpering for another ship to sneeze at).

I play mindgames, and it works except against a choice few that play me regularly and know im bluffing/what im planning out of experience. Only reason i havnt gone to a major tournament with hundreds of players is because unfortunately i am an adult and must do adult things to get money and such, so i cant afford the time.

The amount of times ive faced a list like oh... i dunno... denym? and the opponent actually made a snarky comment about not being worried about my list and then i wreck his face off is hilarious.
But i cant do that against multiple jm5k's sporting k4 + attani. You can only block one of them, and attani/k4 gives him attack mods anyway. So its literally down to can i blow him up before he wittles me down because i 100% CANNOT evade or limit that list's offense in any way other than killing a ship before he kills me . That is the most uphill battle i've faced since the last faq, and while ive beaten it ive lost more than ive won against it.

So.. What's the list you're flying? Did I miss it?
You better have some munitions in there or I don't believe a word of it.

Also, this thread is getting heated. It's refreshing after the long lull since @ParaGoomba Slayer got banned...
Know the lore.

How would reversing the palp nerf change anything? What would you play hin with?

If that wingman has a LWF: I hope you know that this effectively works the same way as an unnerfed palp?! By the time that you roll this third die you already know if you need him or not.

14 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

How would reversing the palp nerf change anything? What would you play hin with?

If that wingman has a LWF: I hope you know that this effectively works the same way as an unnerfed palp?! By the time that you roll this third die you already know if you need him or not.

?Not sure you're using LWF properly? Or Palpatine? I mean, Palpatine doesn't add a result, either way - he just modifies one.

IE., LWF with current Palpatine - attacker rolls 3 dice and gets 1 hit. Roll your 2 agility dice, get blanks, and since you only have 1 health declare an evade and roll 1 more die (LWF) because the attacker rolled more dice than you. Hey, it's an evade anyway, you wasted Palp! So on 3 dice, you get 1 evade and a 2 blanks.

LWF with old Palpatine - attacker rolls 3 dice and gets 1 hit. Roll your 2 agility dice, get blanks, and roll 1 more die (LWF) because the attacker rolled more dice than you. It's an evade! Awesome, didn't need to use Palp after all, so can save him for a later defense.

...but if you consider a strong attacker roll, the situation gets much worse. Attacker rolls 3 dice against, say, 2 evade and 1 health...he gets 2 hits native. So on your first two rolls...currently...do you burn your Palp conversion? Or do you take those rolls and see what you get, then try Palp on the third roll? What if you did exactly that - pass on Palp for the first two dice, oh crap they are both blank that was dumb could really have used him here - go ahead and trigger him on the third, and roll a native evade? Now you've completely wasted him, and you are dead (1 hit gets through), whereas if you could hold off on declaring him until you SAW the first two results...declare and use Palp to convert one blank to an evade then roll that third die and get the native evade...and now you're still alive.

Reactive Palpatine is a much stronger defensive capability than declared Palpatine.