As someone with a long investment in Legend of the Five Rings as well as a strong interest in actual Japanese history, I have to wonder why the writers are using the "-ue" suffix for certain people in the newest fictions. In Japanese "ue" is a participle denoting something being above something else and it can be used as an honorific in very archaic Japanese for one's own daimyo (or for the shogun or emperor). This is in contrast to the more modern and accepted "-sama" (which is an honorific meaning "one of superior station") or "-dono" (which is also archaic and means "lord/lady").

As far as I'm aware, modern Japanese only has two contexts for using -ue. One of them is very formal ways of referring to members of your own family (like chichi-ue , meaning "honored father"). The other is in non-specific name situations for customer service like receipts, which sometimes use ue-sama . Given that sort of thing, what's the internal logic for the setting on using -ue? Is it just for your own daimyo? For high-ranking members of your own clan? Would the emperor be -ue or -sama or -dono? I know that Rokugan isn't Japan, but it's something I'm genuinely curious about, since the previous editions of the game skipped on using -ue as an honorific.

So far, they've used it only for Clan Champions, I think. For a daimyo or the Emperor, who knows? We'll know when they publish fictions where the situation arises. Also, I think that archaic honorifics fit the setting.

I wish it were the other way around because then I could use this phrase to remember it:

Save the "sama" for yo mama!

1 hour ago, blackwingedheaven said:

As someone with a long investment in Legend of the Five Rings as well as a strong interest in actual Japanese history, I have to wonder why the writers are using the "-ue" suffix for certain people in the newest fictions. In Japanese "ue" is a participle denoting something being above something else and it can be used as an honorific in very archaic Japanese for one's own daimyo (or for the shogun or emperor). This is in contrast to the more modern and accepted "-sama" (which is an honorific meaning "one of superior station") or "-dono" (which is also archaic and means "lord/lady").

As far as I'm aware, modern Japanese only has two contexts for using -ue. One of them is very formal ways of referring to members of your own family (like chichi-ue , meaning "honored father"). The other is in non-specific name situations for customer service like receipts, which sometimes use ue-sama . Given that sort of thing, what's the internal logic for the setting on using -ue? Is it just for your own daimyo? For high-ranking members of your own clan? Would the emperor be -ue or -sama or -dono? I know that Rokugan isn't Japan, but it's something I'm genuinely curious about, since the previous editions of the game skipped on using -ue as an honorific.

I'd personally probably call him "Emperor-kun", but then, I've always been a bit of a contrarian.

17 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

I'd personally probably call him "Emperor-kun", but then, I've always been a bit of a contrarian.

Does that get you put to death, or just not invited back to court?

Just now, Mirith said:

Does that get you put to death, or just not invited back to court?

Meh, I'm a gaijin. If any Rokugani are able to personally overhear me saying that, odds are they'll be seeking my death regardless.

I've been wandering this as well. I was pretty sure -sama was the proper one to use before... Maybe they are using the different honorific just to create change though. A way of setting them apart from both what we've known, and what we expect. It kinda baffles me..

4 hours ago, blackwingedheaven said:

I have to wonder why the writers are using the "-ue" suffix for certain people in the newest fictions. In Japanese "ue" is a participle denoting something being above something else and it can be used as an honorific in very archaic Japanese for one's own daimyo (or for the shogun or emperor). This is in contrast to the more modern and accepted "-sama" (which is an honorific meaning "one of superior station") or "-dono" (which is also archaic and means "lord/lady").

You more or less answer your own question here, but to expand upon it a little bit: L5R is indeed a setting inspired by Japan, but not modern Japan by any stretch. It's essentially a period drama with magic and gender equality. And after all, this is a fresh new take on Rokugan, so if the custom in the ancient period the setting is modeled after was to use "-ue" in reference to one's daimyo, what need is there to question its use in this way here?

7 hours ago, JJ48 said:

I'd personally probably call him "Emperor-kun", but then, I've always been a bit of a contrarian.

Interestingly, the character used for the modern "kun" was classically used to refer to the emperor; see "Kimigayo."

17 hours ago, Mirith said:

Does that get you put to death, or just not invited back to court?

I think it gets him a family name, then put to death.

17 hours ago, Ide Yoshiya said:

You more or less answer your own question here, but to expand upon it a little bit: L5R is indeed a setting inspired by Japan, but not modern Japan by any stretch. It's essentially a period drama with magic and gender equality. And after all, this is a fresh new take on Rokugan, so if the custom in the ancient period the setting is modeled after was to use "-ue" in reference to one's daimyo, what need is there to question its use in this way here?

Mostly because while -ue and -dono are both archaic, they're archaic from different periods, and -sama is a fairly modern construction (like Tokugawa Period onward, IIRC). Using all three of them together would be like an English speaking character using "thou" and "you" interchangeably. Also, I'm partly curious about them choosing to use -ue since it's not used at all in previous editions of the game, and what in-world rules they're following to dictate its use.

25 minutes ago, blackwingedheaven said:

Mostly because while -ue and -dono are both archaic, they're archaic from different periods, and -sama is a fairly modern construction (like Tokugawa Period onward, IIRC). Using all three of them together would be like an English speaking character using "thou" and "you" interchangeably. Also, I'm partly curious about them choosing to use -ue since it's not used at all in previous editions of the game, and what in-world rules they're following to dictate its use.

I'm guessing whatever they feel like, its their world! Or more relevantly, I imagine that they sent out a list of things author's needed to do, and this was one of them.

38 minutes ago, blackwingedheaven said:

Using all three of them together would be like an English speaking character using "thou" and "you" interchangeably.

That would be an atrocious mangling of grammar: at the time "thou" was used, "you" was not only the wrong number (plural, while "thou" was singular), but also the wrong case (object, while "thou" was subject - the subject form being "ye"); the only correct characteristic being the person (2nd for both).

8 hours ago, Khudzlin said:

That would be an atrocious mangling of grammar: at the time "thou" was used, "you" was not only the wrong number (plural, while "thou" was singular), but also the wrong case (object, while "thou" was subject - the subject form being "ye"); the only correct characteristic being the person (2nd for both).

My bad on the tense issue. My point about being non-contemporaneous stands.

To be fair, this is par for the course for fantasy world construction. Even fantasy settings based on European "medieval" society tend to draw on aspects of not only completely different places but even time periods a hundred or more years apart.

Maybe they just wanted one more level of distinction between a regular dude and Champs. Everyone's a -sama! All the time! -sama this, -sama that, Jama-sama. Even people who aren't actually a -sama can be called -sama if you want to flatter them, or be sarcastic at them. Maybe their hope is small change like that helps show that a Champ isn't a normal -sama. if you use -sama and -dono for everyone who's above you, then various daimyos and champions aren't easily spotted as different in relation to a direct superior.
remember they hope to draw in new fans who may not know all this fancy pants samurai etiquette we all do. this feels like a friendly change to help clarify rank in stories to me.

18 minutes ago, llamaman88 said:

Maybe they just wanted one more level of distinction between a regular dude and Champs. Everyone's a -sama! All the time! -sama this, -sama that, Jama-sama. Even people who aren't actually a -sama can be called -sama if you want to flatter them, or be sarcastic at them. Maybe their hope is small change like that helps show that a Champ isn't a normal -sama. if you use -sama and -dono for everyone who's above you, then various daimyos and champions aren't easily spotted as different in relation to a direct superior.
remember they hope to draw in new fans who may not know all this fancy pants samurai etiquette we all do. this feels like a friendly change to help clarify rank in stories to me.

I like the new distinction too. It gives a "sir", "my lord" and "your majesty" to Rokugan. I would expect the Emperor to have his own honourific although it doesn't really matter to me as I would never speak in his presence.

4 hours ago, llamaman88 said:

if you use -sama and -dono for everyone who's above you, then various daimyos and champions aren't easily spotted as different in relation to a direct superior.

Actually, -dono implies that the speaker is also highly ranked, so it's not used to address someone above you. It would be used by a daimyo to address another daimyo, for instance.

According to the Imperial Archives, p34:
-ue: family daimyo (including vassal families)
-no-kimi: Clan Champions and those of similar status (e.g. the Emerald Champion)

12 hours ago, Exarkfr said:

According to the Imperial Archives, p34:
-ue: family daimyo (including vassal families)
-no-kimi: Clan Champions and those of similar status (e.g. the Emerald Champion)

Since I'm the one who wrote that bit for the previous edition, I can say with confidence that a) it's not binding on the reboot and b) it's one of several different approaches I've cooked up over time, trying to balance questions of accuracy, granularity, accessibility, and so forth. It's true that, as blackwingedheaven says, there's a degree of historical mixing going on -- but since Rokugan itself mixes Heian courtliness with Sengoku militarism and Tokugawa material culture (before you even consider the Chinese/Mongolian/etc touches), I figure that's about par for the course. The suffixes in Imperial Archives were indeed intended to introduce a bit of linguistic distinction between higher-ranking samurai generally and those in the very top echelons . . . since you can bet the average Rokugani samurai does not go around calling their clan champion "Tsukune" or "Hotaru," and just referring to "Shiba-sama" or "Doji-sama" really doesn't narrow the field. :-P

25 minutes ago, Kinzen said:

Since I'm the one who wrote that bit for the previous edition, I can say with confidence that a) it's not binding on the reboot and b) it's one of several different approaches I've cooked up over time, trying to balance questions of accuracy, granularity, accessibility, and so forth. It's true that, as blackwingedheaven says, there's a degree of historical mixing going on -- but since Rokugan itself mixes Heian courtliness with Sengoku militarism and Tokugawa material culture (before you even consider the Chinese/Mongolian/etc touches), I figure that's about par for the course. The suffixes in Imperial Archives were indeed intended to introduce a bit of linguistic distinction between higher-ranking samurai generally and those in the very top echelons . . . since you can bet the average Rokugani samurai does not go around calling their clan champion "Tsukune" or "Hotaru," and just referring to "Shiba-sama" or "Doji-sama" really doesn't narrow the field. :-P

I was thinking about this recently for the L5R RPG I'm starting... because as I understand it most people in Japanese society refer to each other by their family names and I like the flavor of social distance and respect created by referring to Rokugan characters by clan-san, or family-san rather than their name its self. Differentiation if there are several characters who share a clan or family might be an issue though...

I'm no Japanese scholar, are there any angles that could be used to still draw on this social distance / respect, and differentiate between characters? Anything to designate the superior / subordination of a group, even though they are not higher status than the speaker?

edit - From what I've seen it seems like giving them a rank might be a good way to work it in. Would referring to someone as Doji-Chui or Chui-san or something be on the right track? Or are there any suggestion on a better way to do this?

You could also refer to someone using their position instead of a name. "Minister-of-Ports-sama" is better than "Joe-sama", because being Minister of Ports is glorious and prestigous. It becomes trickier if the target has multiple titles, though. Picking the one that is most relevant at the moment is important, because if you pick one that doesn't apply while other does, you will most likely be rude (If you are at a party and there is An Ants Loremaster while the topic comes up, still referring to him as a Master of Ports might mean you don't respect his expertise and title he got thanks to it.)

1 hour ago, WHW said:

You could also refer to someone using their position instead of a name. "Minister-of-Ports-sama" is better than "Joe-sama", because being Minister of Ports is glorious and prestigous. It becomes trickier if the target has multiple titles, though. Picking the one that is most relevant at the moment is important, because if you pick one that doesn't apply while other does, you will most likely be rude (If you are at a party and there is An Ants Loremaster while the topic comes up, still referring to him as a Master of Ports might mean you don't respect his expertise and title he got thanks to it.)

Alright, that sounds useful - then comes the next question, do I dare commit to garbled japanese titles... or do I just call people by their title in english...

Yes, using military titles works, just like it does in English (differentiating between Sergeant Ramirez and General Ramirez), and I think it can in theory work both of the ways you described: Doji-chui and Chui-san/sama. People who govern castles or cities or provinces can be called by their estate names* in place of family names, e.g. Nikesake-sama. And if you want to stick to English, then yeah, talking about the Chancellor or the Minister of Trade or whatever is perfectly polite and makes things a lot clearer.

*This would work better if L5R didn't have a history of being omgwtfbbq terrible at constructing place names. Calling somebody Shiro sano Ken Hayai-sama doesn't really work as well as Hayato-sama or Souken-sama.

On 8/28/2017 at 8:56 AM, blackwingedheaven said:

Would the emperor be -ue or -sama or -dono? I know that Rokugan isn't Japan, but it's something I'm genuinely curious about, since the previous editions of the game skipped on using -ue as an honorific.

In terms of actual usage, none of the above would apply. The emperor/empress would be referred to as heika (陛下), either by itself or following their title (can't remember off the top of my head if that's tenno or kotei in Rokugani).