Ok, I realise I'm probably going to get shot down here by saying this, but as the waves keep coming out I've been feeling increasingly troubled by the list building of both sides.

Where I used to love the rebels, particularly their squads, I now find building lists for them clunky. Everything me and my buddy try seems to collapse and the Imps are steamrollering our matchups. I was having some thoughts as to why this could be:

1. Imp ships have bigger hull values, and they have Motti.

2. Imp ships have more clearly defined roles. I guess their fighters do too and while we used to view this as a downside for the squad play, Sloane now seems to solve this problem.

The rebels' ships in the meantime always feel cardboard thin, with their roles often muddy at best. I've tried the cr90 and the Pelta, and will soon be trying out a Garels Honour Hammerhead, but they just seem to get one shotted most of time. Neb Bs are even worse and the only one I've truly had success with is Yavaris with relayed squads, where Yavaris just stays well clear of the battle. The Liberty is another enigma; where the Mc80 has proved capable, the Liberty just seems terribly squishy in comparison. Maybe it's because broadsiding suits rebel ships better as a strategy against front heavy imp ships?

So each time I come back to same old lists. Mc80s, Assault Frigates, Yavaris and Mc30s. This time when we're were deciding who we'd be, both of us wanted the Imps. The arrival of the Arquittens and its 3 reds out the side has been a godsend for the Imps, as have recent waves which have just made them so much more attractive to build lists for theses days. Tua and JJ have been very welcome in fixing weaknesses, Sloane too. I just haven't seen the same for the rebels and feel they've been artificially thought of as strong because of one or two very specific lists e.g. Rieekan aces.

Thrawn also looks amazebaws!

Well, imps do have more hull, although the rebels have better shields and defense tokens in a big part (double braces, double evades) and rebel squads, even with Sloane now on the table, are generally better performing, for example X-wings can be used as escorts, and when they're done they are red dice bombers, their biggest disadvantage is their lower speed, so I think both sides have pros and cons that heavily depend on what you want specifically.

And I think this will change every wave, for example now rebels can drop ships mid-fight however they want, Imperials can negate upgrades, and the balance keeps shifting, but always in an overall balance. Because imp ships have clear roles, you mostly only take them in certain situations,while Rebel ships can be kind of all around, shooting, activating squads...

I'm really hoping the Profundity turns out to be a good a ship, similar to Home One and better than the Liberty.

Just now, Jambo75 said:

I'm really hoping the Profundity turns out to be a good a ship, similar to Home One and better than the Liberty.

It is basically a ship RLB, can't see it going too wrong with that when you drop a Garel's honour with ER

Balance is dropping heavily towards Imperial faction since the Rieekan Hysteria. I think devs panicked and disbalanced it (on purpose or not) as a result of a "hotfix" so they won't lose the growing Imperial sided community. Hopefuly we will find balance in future waves.

There is a saying in my language: Quien no llora no mama. Literally, who does not cry, does not get "breast fed" (lol). And the Imperial community cryed, a lot. Rebels just need to be less shy and a bit louder. Maybe grow in numbers too.

3 hours ago, Jambo75 said:

Ok, I realise I'm probably going to get shot down here by saying this, but as the waves keep coming out I've been feeling increasingly troubled by the list building of both sides.

Where I used to love the rebels, particularly their squads, I now find building lists for them clunky. Everything me and my buddy try seems to collapse and the Imps are steamrollering our matchups. I was having some thoughts as to why this could be:

1. Imp ships have bigger hull values, and they have Motti.

2. Imp ships have more clearly defined roles. I guess their fighters do too and while we used to view this as a downside for the squad play, Sloane now seems to solve this problem.

The rebels' ships in the meantime always feel cardboard thin, with their roles often muddy at best. I've tried the cr90 and the Pelta, and will soon be trying out a Garels Honour Hammerhead, but they just seem to get one shotted most of time. Neb Bs are even worse and the only one I've truly had success with is Yavaris with relayed squads, where Yavaris just stays well clear of the battle. The Liberty is another enigma; where the Mc80 has proved capable, the Liberty just seems terribly squishy in comparison. Maybe it's because broadsiding suits rebel ships better as a strategy against front heavy imp ships?

So each time I come back to same old lists. Mc80s, Assault Frigates, Yavaris and Mc30s. This time when we're were deciding who we'd be, both of us wanted the Imps. The arrival of the Arquittens and its 3 reds out the side has been a godsend for the Imps, as have recent waves which have just made them so much more attractive to build lists for theses days. Tua and JJ have been very welcome in fixing weaknesses, Sloane too. I just haven't seen the same for the rebels and feel they've been artificially thought of as strong because of one or two very specific lists e.g. Rieekan aces.

Thrawn also looks amazebaws!

When you're running Rebel ships like the CR90, what upgrades are you putting on them? TRCs or DTTs or something else? And what commander(s) are you running them with?

Rebels and Imps play differently and require different mindsets when you're running them. The Imps have been getting new stuff to play with to make certain ships better, but (with Sato excepted) the Rebels have got some good stuff too. Nothing as INSANELY good as JJ, but Madine and Leia can work (if you want to pull 2 recent commanders out).

Part of the issue I think is that you can theoretically add in an ISD to any Imp list and it's good. Not every Rebel list wants the same stuff. Closest you'll get is a CR90 with it working in some fashion for everyone. The Pelta wants specific builds that it can maximize and make better, while the LMC80 wants specific commanders. The hammerheads also want specific commanders or builds to keep them running right.

But it comes down to list building I think. So let's start there; who do you want to take? What do you want to use?

26 minutes ago, xerpo said:

Balance is dropping heavily towards Imperial faction since the Rieekan Hysteria. I think devs panicked and disbalanced it (on purpose or not) as a result of a "hotfix" so they won't lose the growing Imperial sided community. Hopefuly we will find balance in future waves.

There is a saying in my language: Quien no llora no mama. Literally, who does not cry, does not get "breast fed" (lol). And the Imperial community cryed, a lot. Rebels just need to be less shy and a bit louder. Maybe grow in numbers too.

For once, we actually agree.

Despite the Imp nerfs, FFG is handing out very powerful upgrades for them. BT Avenger, Quasar, Sloane, Thrawn, Vader. And Rebels got Leia and Hammerheads and Cham... It's frustrating to watch because Rieekan grew in power with each wave, where as Imps are getting very powerful upgrades from the start.

Objectively, I hate it. I want the game to be balanced. Subjectively, I'm very excited to field some OP ISDs and crush my opponent.

Seconded. Even though Profoundity isn't completely revealed yet, I doubt it could be better than the Trawn - Chimaera - Fleet Support - Mando Fighter combo the Imps gonna get. And I think Wave 6 already helped the Imperials more with Dcaps and ER.

3 minutes ago, Norell said:

Seconded. Even though Profoundity isn't completely revealed yet, I doubt it could be better than the Trawn - Chimaera - Fleet Support - Mando Fighter combo the Imps gonna get. And I think Wave 6 already helped the Imperials more with Dcaps and ER.

Agreed. DC can be used by an AF and Pelta, just in case you need those extra 1 blue die. Raiders and Vics really won with the upgrades for wave 6. ER and DC. Too **** good.

I've got one game in so far, but dcaps on a scout Hammerhead is pretty enjoyable.

So I agree that Imps feel like the stronger faction atm. I don't really think its by all that much. I alternate factions week to week, and so my view on factionbalance is a more unbiased then my views on healer class balance in WoW (Holy Priest or go home).

Part of that is that the last few imperial admirals have all been amazeballs (jerry, sloane, thrawn) vs some pretty lackluster rebel admirals (sato, leia) although jury is out on Raddus who if nothing else, at least looks fun.

Part is the Rieekan nerf. Because he was the best Rebel admiral. But that needed to happen because it was getting to a point where I had to conciously decide not to make the optimal choice with too many different lists.

Part is that I keep seeing things in rebel packs that imperials can use effectively, but not seeing the same in imperial packs. External Racks are phenomenal for Raiders and VSD-1's, but I don't see the same value for Disp caps on the Rebel side.

Finally, Rebels had a decided edge in the fighter game, and they pretty decidedly don't anymore, except that imo they still play better strategic games. Which isnt to say they cant win it. But Rieekan/stacking BCC's were both nerfs that imo had a greater impact on rebel builds (especially post sloane), and of course theres the issue that the rebels don't have a great FC platform, where the empire has three.

Good news tho. We don't know whats coming in this next set, but we know that the Pelta is going to get access to another fleet command. If thats a good card, thats a side buff for the pelta, which for all its faults is a much cheaper way to include fleetwide buffs then the cymoon. It will unfortunately be hard to get hands on if you are rebel only as a purchaser.

Raddus' ability has no imperial corollary. It remains to be seen what that will mean for balance.

Its possible that the Profundity will give the rebels the FC platform they have been waiting for. Assuming it has a weapons team, it will also be another ship that synergizes with ackbar.

Thrawn is going to be awesome, sure. But his existence will cut sloane usage, which in turn raises the relative strength of things like mothma mc30 swarms, as they are ironically stronger against bombers then they are against single blue die from sloane squads. Its clearly better for rebel aces not to have to deal with sloane balls.

Tl;dr- agree imps feel a bit stronger atm. But I would have said the same about the rebels right up to wave 6. Two faction balance is probably always going to be a pendulum, swinging this way and that. I don't think the imbalance is such that it makes it impossible (or even really difficult) to play rebels, and so long as there are fun viable options on both sides, I'm content to wait for future releases to address the issues that pop up. Theres a lot of fun new stuff for the imps right now, and thats good because imo imperial fleet building had stagnated a bit in waves 4 and 5. Rebels still have plenty of solid options, but they aren't as new and so they are less glamorous.

1 minute ago, Madaghmire said:

So I agree that Imps feel like the stronger faction atm. I don't really think its by all that much. I alternate factions week to week, and so my view on factionbalance is a more unbiased then my views on healer class balance in WoW (Holy Priest or go home).

Part of that is that the last few imperial admirals have all been amazeballs (jerry, sloane, thrawn) vs some pretty lackluster rebel admirals (sato, leia) although jury is out on Raddus who if nothing else, at least looks fun.

Part is the Rieekan nerf. Because he was the best Rebel admiral. But that needed to happen because it was getting to a point where I had to conciously decide not to make the optimal choice with too many different lists.

Part is that I keep seeing things in rebel packs that imperials can use effectively, but not seeing the same in imperial packs. External Racks are phenomenal for Raiders and VSD-1's, but I don't see the same value for Disp caps on the Rebel side.

Finally, Rebels had a decided edge in the fighter game, and they pretty decidedly don't anymore, except that imo they still play better strategic games. Which isnt to say they cant win it. But Rieekan/stacking BCC's were both nerfs that imo had a greater impact on rebel builds (especially post sloane), and of course theres the issue that the rebels don't have a great FC platform, where the empire has three.

Good news tho. We don't know whats coming in this next set, but we know that the Pelta is going to get access to another fleet command. If thats a good card, thats a side buff for the pelta, which for all its faults is a much cheaper way to include fleetwide buffs then the cymoon. It will unfortunately be hard to get hands on if you are rebel only as a purchaser.

Raddus' ability has no imperial corollary. It remains to be seen what that will mean for balance.

Its possible that the Profundity will give the rebels the FC platform they have been waiting for. Assuming it has a weapons team, it will also be another ship that synergizes with ackbar.

Thrawn is going to be awesome, sure. But his existence will cut sloane usage, which in turn raises the relative strength of things like mothma mc30 swarms, as they are ironically stronger against bombers then they are against single blue die from sloane squads. Its clearly better for rebel aces not to have to deal with sloane balls.

Tl;dr- agree imps feel a bit stronger atm. But I would have said the same about the rebels right up to wave 6. Two faction balance is probably always going to be a pendulum, swinging this way and that. I don't think the imbalance is such that it makes it impossible (or even really difficult) to play rebels, and so long as there are fun viable options on both sides, I'm content to wait for future releases to address the issues that pop up. Theres a lot of fun new stuff for the imps right now, and thats good because imo imperial fleet building had stagnated a bit in waves 4 and 5. Rebels still have plenty of solid options, but they aren't as new and so they are less glamorous.

I'll agree with.most of what you said with the exception of Leia being lackluster. Sato I agree, but Leia is DEADLY when run well.

Just now, geek19 said:

I'll agree with.most of what you said with the exception of Leia being lackluster. Sato I agree, but Leia is DEADLY when run well.

I've had those games too...but I still think she's overcosted.

Has the tournament collection data been bearing out that the Imps are winning too often?

Last I looked the top 8 average was 50/50 and the Rebs still had 60% of wins.

5 minutes ago, Madaghmire said:

I've had those games too...but I still think she's overcosted.

How much is she over costed because of the Rebel ship discount and all? I mean, the ability to fit 7 ships in with some fighter coverage EASILY is pretty solid, I gotta say.

2 minutes ago, Democratus said:

Has the tournament collection data been bearing out that the Imps are winning too often?

Last I looked the top 8 average was 50/50 and the Rebs still had 60% of wins.

That's not including the NC SC, which has had 4 Imp wins.

We don't track out lists so I don't report it.

2 minutes ago, geek19 said:

How much is she over costed because of the Rebel ship discount and all? I mean, the ability to fit 7 ships in with some fighter coverage EASILY is pretty solid, I gotta say.

I'd say shes at least 4 points overcosted. Although I ran a scout hh list with her that tabled 3 vader arqs and a vic2, both of us had a similar squad investment. (74-93 pts)

She scales up though with every new one command ship the rebels get.

9 minutes ago, Democratus said:

Has the tournament collection data been bearing out that the Imps are winning too often?

Last I looked the top 8 average was 50/50 and the Rebs still had 60% of wins.

Regionals havent begun and Store Champs data is meaningless, imo, since meta's can vary so wildly the more limited the player count.

1 hour ago, geek19 said:

with Sato excepted

I cry inside every time. lol


Is Sato not good?

I run him in a Mc30/bomber list and table every person I play. (which, yeah, my local group are not that skilled, but still, he's so easy and fun to play).

1 minute ago, Darth Sanguis said:

I cry inside every time. lol


Is Sato not good?

I run him in a Mc30/bomber list and table every person I play. (which, yeah, my local group are not that skilled, but still, he's so easy and fun to play).

YMMV. For the competitive scene as a whole, no, he's not.

But if you are finding sucess with him, and more importantly, are having fun with him, then frack the competitive scene. Maybe he just works for you.

Just now, Madaghmire said:

YMMV. For the competitive scene as a whole, no, he's not.

But if you are finding sucess with him, and more importantly, are having fun with him, then frack the competitive scene. Maybe he just works for you.

That's a good point.

I have a buy at regionals, maybe I can see how he does there.

6 minutes ago, Madaghmire said:

YMMV. For the competitive scene as a whole, no, he's not.

But if you are finding sucess with him, and more importantly, are having fun with him, then frack the competitive scene. Maybe he just works for you.

This basically. I always kept having trouble coordinating it all, but I also play in a meta with a lot of Evade tokens, so his power is not as helpful as I'd want it to be, when the crit gets tossed out the window.

15 minutes ago, Madaghmire said:

I'd say shes at least 4 points overcosted. Although I ran a scout hh list with her that tabled 3 vader arqs and a vic2, both of us had a similar squad investment. (74-93 pts)

She scales up though with every new one command ship the rebels get.

I tried her with a solid amount of squadrons (100ish?) and wasn't too impressed. I'd lean more towards the 70ish personally (if you WERE the guy with the 90) just to cram in more ships. I think, given that I can fit 40 point hammerheads in with her en masse that she's costed fairly. But I really don't factor cost in too much, I focus more on the commander's ability. And it's a GREAT ability. That's more what I care about.

5 minutes ago, geek19 said:

I tried her with a solid amount of squadrons (100ish?) and wasn't too impressed. I'd lean more towards the 70ish personally (if you WERE the guy with the 90) just to cram in more ships. I think, given that I can fit 40 point hammerheads in with her en masse that she's costed fairly. But I really don't factor cost in too much, I focus more on the commander's ability. And it's a GREAT ability. That's more what I care about.

Something of a meta choice. Lots of sloane lately. I tech'd in some autodamage.

2 minutes ago, Madaghmire said:

Something of a meta choice. Lots of sloane lately. I tech'd in some autodamage.

Ah, fair. Sloane was pretty much DOA here for some reason.