So, saw this earlier, Vader with ATC flying next to a ship with targeting synchroniser. They both have target locks on the same ship. Vader shoots, uses the synchroniser to spend his Squadron mate's target lock. Can he then apply the Crit from the ATC? I can see it from both sides.

ATC says if you add a crit you can't spend target locks, but if the player chooses which order the effect takes place and uses the synchronised target lock first... well, it doesn't say that you may not add the crit if you have already spent a target lock. Thoughts?

The text: "you cannot spend target locks during this attack" applies to the entire attack, not just dice modification. It doesn't matter what order you try to do it in, the prohibitive text of Advanced Targeting Computer takes precedence. See "Golden Rules" on page 2 of the Rules Reference. There is no room for any other interpretation when a "cannot" ability is in question during the same timing as a "may" ability.

It's legal. ATC's effect wasn't in place when the target lock was spent, and spending a target lock does not prevent ATC from being activated.

2 hours ago, InquisitorM said:

It's legal. ATC's effect wasn't in place when the target lock was spent, and spending a target lock does not prevent ATC from being activated.

no it's not. refer jmswood

RAW yes. ATC doesn't forbid you from using itself if a lock has been spent. It forbids spending locks in future. It's not retroactive.

RAI obviously no. It is intended not to work this way I think but ffg don't have good technical writers.

6 hours ago, Ralgon said:

no it's not. refer jmswood

He's wrong. ATC's restriction is not time-traveling. You can spend target lock before activating it.

Thought this would be the response. I've contacted FFG, so at some point I'll have an answer

8 minutes ago, InquisitorM said:

He's wrong. ATC's restriction is not time-traveling. You can spend target lock before activating it.

Sure it is. If you've already spent a target lock on the attack you are unable use the atc ability, it's that simple. The timing of the target lock use is irrelevant, by using TS you have created a condition that the card acknowledges and reacts with (the use of a target lock during the attack).

17 minutes ago, Ralgon said:

Sure it is. If you've already spent a target lock on the attack you are unable use the atc ability, it's that simple. The timing of the target lock use is irrelevant, by using TS you have created a condition that the card acknowledges and reacts with (the use of a target lock during the attack).

Do what the cards says. You're calling for doing what the card doesn't say.

3 minutes ago, InquisitorM said:

Do what the cards says. You're calling for doing what the card doesn't say.

This.

The restriction written on the card is for future tl use, not past.

Note: i don't think this *should* work i think that RAW it does.

I'm told that the Marshall's ruling at the national event was that it worked, as the restriction on ATC did not come into effect until the crit was added.

6 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

RAW yes. ATC doesn't forbid you from using itself if a lock has been spent. It forbids spending locks in future. It's not retroactive.

RAI obviously no. It is intended not to work this way I think but ffg don't have good technical writers.

I'll accept that answer.

3 hours ago, InquisitorM said:

He's wrong. ATC's restriction is not time-traveling. You can spend target lock before activating it.

And that one.

2 hours ago, Estarriol said:

I'm told that the Marshall's ruling at the national event was that it worked, as the restriction on ATC did not come into effect until the crit was added.

Makes sense to me.

The broad wording "during this attack" typically applies to an entire attack, but I overlooked the fact that nothing in X-wing is retroactive. It's ironic because I've used that same point in other rules answers.

...now where did I put my Vader/Quickdraw list...

I'm going with Spaced on this one. It probably SHOULDN'T work, but the way the cards are written I'd say it does.

ATC in generic terms says: You may do X. Once you have done X you are not allowed to do Y.

You don't read the Y part until after X has already been performed, the wording does not check before adding the crit.

So is it going by the rule of multiple identical triggers that allows you to choose to resolve targeting synchronizer first, and then advanced targeting computer that makes this work?

1 minute ago, Juunon said:

So is it going by the rule of multiple identical triggers that allows you to choose to resolve targeting synchronizer first, and then advanced targeting computer that makes this work?

Correct. By raw anyway.

That's.... A great spot! I may also dig out my Tie/Advanced after a long hiatus

So what do you think about Feedback array's FAQ ?

Is that a confirmation that you cannot use TS & ATC or rather the other way around, because ATC has not used word instead ?

Feedback Array's FAQ has absolutely no bearing on this interaction.

On 8/28/2017 at 5:31 AM, thespaceinvader said:

This.

The restriction written on the card is for future tl use, not past.

Note: i don't think this *should* work i think that RAW it does.

Ok, I'm totally confused now. How is the TL restriction on the card for future use if it says "this attack"? I understand that the timing is the same, during the "attacker modifies attack dice". If I add a crit, that prevents me from spending a TL, correct? But I can spend a TL and still add the crit? That makes no sense to me, especially since the card refers to Target Locks, plural.

4 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

Ok, I'm totally confused now. How is the TL restriction on the card for future use if it says "this attack"? I understand that the timing is the same, during the "attacker modifies attack dice". If I add a crit, that prevents me from spending a TL, correct? But I can spend a TL and still add the crit? That makes no sense to me, especially since the card refers to Target Locks, plural.

Read the card, Luke.

"You may not spend Target Locks during this attack" says nothing about whether you can use this if you've spent a Target lock BEFORE you activate it. Just that you can't spend them AFTER you activate it. It's nothing to do with anything past 'this attack' - there's a sequence of things happening during 'attacker modifies defence dice', which goes like this:

Roll dice.

Spend QD's lock to reroll

Use ATC

*attempt to use Vader's lock to reroll, but you can't because ATC stops you*.

Spend focus, use Lone Wolf, Predator, whatever, doesn't matter you can do those to your heart's content.

--

Until TS existed this was a moot point because you could never spend the lock AND THEN use ATC anyway, because you can't have your cake and eat it too (i.e. you wouldn't have a lock to activate ATC if you'd spent it to reroll).

Currently, RAW, you can spend QD's lock via Synchroniser to reroll, then activate ATC. ATC then says 'you can't spend any more locks during this attack, because I say so', but it doesn't look back and say 'hey now, you already spent a lock, no dice', because *that's not what the card says*.

I suspect however, that this interaction is not intended, and ATC should probably indicate that you can't use it if a lock has been spent, AND you can't spend locks after using it.

13 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Read the card, Luke.

"You may not spend Target Locks during this attack" says nothing about whether you can use this if you've spent a Target lock BEFORE you activate it. Just that you can't spend them AFTER you activate it. It's nothing to do with anything past 'this attack' - there's a sequence of things happening during 'attacker modifies defence dice', which goes like this:

Roll dice.

Spend QD's lock to reroll

Use ATC

*attempt to use Vader's lock to reroll, but you can't because ATC stops you*.

Spend focus, use Lone Wolf, Predator, whatever, doesn't matter you can do those to your heart's content.

--

Until TS existed this was a moot point because you could never spend the lock AND THEN use ATC anyway, because you can't have your cake and eat it too (i.e. you wouldn't have a lock to activate ATC if you'd spent it to reroll).

Currently, RAW, you can spend QD's lock via Synchroniser to reroll, then activate ATC. ATC then says 'you can't spend any more locks during this attack, because I say so', but it doesn't look back and say 'hey now, you already spent a lock, no dice', because *that's not what the card says*.

I suspect however, that this interaction is not intended, and ATC should probably indicate that you can't use it if a lock has been spent, AND you can't spend locks after using it.

I see the argument for, based on your sequence but the wording "this attack" encompasses all the separate steps from declaring a target to dealing damage. Adding the crit is part of "this attack" so it would seem not to work after spending another ship's TL because that too was part of "this attack".

I'm not trying to be contrary but sometimes this game almost drives me to drink. I love this game but when you have to parse seemingly obvious interactions I'm sorely tempted to return to something simpler, like chess.

Nothing in x-wing is retroactive though.

The restriction is only imposed when it's imposed, not before.

You're doing something the card doesn't say, by assuming that it knows you've spent a lock before you activate it. It doesn't.

And Chess IS simpler. It only has 9 types of piece, instead of thousands.

4 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Nothing in x-wing is retroactive though.

The restriction is only imposed when it's imposed, not before.

You're doing something the card doesn't say, by assuming that it knows you've spent a lock before you activate it. It doesn't.

And Chess IS simpler. It only has 9 types of piece, instead of thousands.

Chess has better written rules though it's also about 1400 years old. Hopefully it doesn't take FFG that long to get RAI=RAW.

Based on the cards I can see both arguments. I would chalk this up to how confusing/muddled the English language is more than anything else. The issue is there is an extremely fine line between correcting an interpretation on RAW for the flaws of the English language and correcting an interpretation on RAW to represent RAI.

I understand the National's Marshal ruled you can TS and then ATC however I have to side with the principal that, if I am using ATC I "cannot spend target locks during this attack" and, as I have just spent a target lock from TS, I am now no longer eligible to receive the benefits of ATC's ability.

Thank you for the pics Zelux. As above ATC says, "you may add one (crit) to your roll"

The way I've ruled this is that you are adding the crit before the modify dice step and that is why you cannot use target sync. My ruling is in the same vein as Zuckuss rerolls C-3PO's added result.