6 hours ago, Rumar said:

My problem is that the mechanism doesn't scale. Even if there will be no power creep (and FFG has form), I doubt that we have already seen the heavy hitters.

I strongly disagree. As has been stated, hard and soft cover reduce hits by 1 and 2. Crits get through cover, and Blast ignores cover.

What scales is you defense die. So after cover, if you are taking 3 hits, you roll 3 dice and cancel those hits. If you're taking 8 hits, you roll 8 defense dice and cancel those hits.

It would be awful to have 2 scaling defense mechanisms. I'd actually like to kill some things when I play. You can also take a Dodge action, which plays a role in surge dice.

We haven't even seen the rule book and Alex Davvy said there are more complex rules not described in the demo.

If cover isn't that important to you, by all means stand in the open.

19 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

You can also take a Dodge action, which plays a role in surge dice.

Dodge ony lets you reroll defense dice, it does not interact with surges.

What you are thinking of is the deflect keyword which states:

While defending, if you spend a dodge token (to reroll defense dice), you gain "[defensive surge]:[block]"; if it's a ranged attack, the attacker suffers 1 wound for each [defensive surge] rolled.

The parenthetical is my interpretation based on Alex Davey's explanation of deflect in the team covenant demo vid.

Edit: also 0 is a # in ffg games.

Plus any cover system that is based on some sort of RNG is inherently less effective than one that isn't. Because you can never count on a RNG system.

Take 40k, that gives you a +1 to your armor stat, that means you're more likely to make your save, but doesn't guarantee it. This is inherently less effective than one that reduces the amount of hits you have to save against. Because you have to make fewer saves so RNG means less.

I'd much rather make 4 saves without any sort of increase in the chances then make 6 saves with better odds. Because dice are fickle and will screw you over.

This also scales up better then some sort of improved save, because you're still making fewer saves then you would otherwise in the same situation.

15 minutes ago, Orcdruid said:

Dodge ony lets you reroll defense dice, it does not interact with surges.

What you are thinking of is the deflect keyword which states:

While defending, if you spend a dodge token (to reroll defense dice), you gain "[defensive surge]:[block]"; if it's a ranged attack, the attacker suffers 1 wound for each [defensive surge] rolled.

The parenthetical is my interpretation based on Alex Davey's explanation of deflect in the team covenant demo vid.

Edit: also 0 is a # in ffg games.

No, Dodge tokens cancel hits on a 1:1 basis.

AIM tokens allow you to re-roll attack dice.

Seeing the TC demo video i was struck by how many contemporary rule sets have been 'inspirational' to this game. The way cover works reminded me a LOT of 'The Men Who Would Be Kings' as did the 'move the leader/measure from leader' aspects of the squads. Simple, effective and fast.

Probably not a game I would race to aquire but one I will follow with interest . .!

2 hours ago, Orcdruid said:

Dodge ony lets you reroll defense dice, it does not interact with surges.

What you are thinking of is the deflect keyword which states:

While defending, if you spend a dodge token (to reroll defense dice), you gain "[defensive surge]:[block]"; if it's a ranged attack, the attacker suffers 1 wound for each [defensive surge] rolled.

The parenthetical is my interpretation based on Alex Davey's explanation of deflect in the team covenant demo vid.

Edit: also 0 is a # in ffg games.

As @Tvayumat said, I think the Rebels can take a Dodge token and turn surges into blocks.

Just now, Undeadguy said:

As @Tvayumat said, I think the Rebels can take a Dodge token and turn surges into blocks.

That is Luke's "Deflect" ability. Vader has it, too.

When he spends a dodge token, he can then turn surges into blocks. If the attack is ranged, then the attacker suffers damage for each surge, too.

1 hour ago, Tvayumat said:

No, Dodge tokens cancel hits on a 1:1 basis.

AIM tokens allow you to re-roll attack dice.

So I just re-watched the TC vid and...

...your right. That is awesome!

This means that rebel troopers are going to be better than I thought.

This also seems like it leads to an interesting meta path.

Troopers favor trench warfare[TW](aim/dodge and shoot from cover)

TW is countered by blast. Blast is countered by armor. Armor is countered by impact. Finally, impact is countered by troopers.

Now speeder bikes are the obvious exeption to this circle that I have created, however I would count them as troopers. They have built in cover and a compulsory move. This means they can still aim/dodge and shoot with little risk of being out of position. Their compulsory move also kinda gives them blast by allowing them to get behind cover really fast. This coupled with the impact on the front gun means, if my meta circle is correct(big if), they will likely be a staple.

Just now, Tvayumat said:

That is Luke's "Deflect" ability. Vader has it, too.

When he spends a dodge token, he can then turn surges into blocks. If the attack is ranged, then the attacker suffers damage for each surge, too.

I can't read the Rebel Trooper card I have. What does Nimble do? I know Deflect works for the force guys, but I swore Nimble worked on Surges.

Ah never mind. Nimble just grants your a new Dodge token. Useful if you get attacked multiple times per round. Too bad it goes away at the end.

2 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

I can't read the Rebel Trooper card I have. What does Nimble do? I know Deflect works for the force guys, but I swore Nimble worked on Surges.

After defending, if they spent a dodge token, they gain a dodge token.

I think another thing to remember is that there will be objectives and 6 rounds. 3/4 stated objectives are not just kills. So sitting around in cover is not worth it, you need to play the objectives. I think this will add a dimension to cover. Do I wait it out and let him possibly take the obj later? Or do I leave cover and assault the obj. Should I move out of cover and force him out.

36 minutes ago, Guest Kerfuffin said:

I think another thing to remember is that there will be objectives and 6 rounds. 3/4 stated objectives are not just kills. So sitting around in cover is not worth it, you need to play the objectives. I think this will add a dimension to cover. Do I wait it out and let him possibly take the obj later? Or do I leave cover and assault the obj. Should I move out of cover and force him out.

Indeed.

This won't be a Napoleonic wargame, with gunlines popping away at eachother.

Cover will be quite situational - but hopefully not an essential mechanism to how the game is played. Turtling is just really boring.

Isn't there an entire section of rules about suppression fire and morale, that wasn't included in the TC demo vid? Surely that interacts with the cover system and makes it more valuable?

11 minutes ago, jonboyjon1990 said:

Isn't there an entire section of rules about suppression fire and morale, that wasn't included in the TC demo vid? Surely that interacts with the cover system and makes it more valuable?

Looks as if suppression is going to reduce the number of actions a unit can talk. So if you are supressed, cover is where you want to be, to avoid being completely mowed down.

It will be interesting to see how the morale system works though. I'm glad they have made capturing objectives tge main driver of conflict though - with the 6-turn limit. Legion will not be a boring game!

2 hours ago, Jedirev said:

Indeed.

This won't be a Napoleonic wargame, with gunlines popping away at eachother.

Cover will be quite situational - but hopefully not an essential mechanism to how the game is played. Turtling is just really boring.

You obviously never played a Napoleonic wargame or read anything about Napoleonic warfare. That era was the last time a cavalry charge had a chance and most fighting took place without any cover whatsoever.

13 hours ago, Tvayumat said:

I only heard about this game a few days ago when it was announced, and I've never designed a game, but I feel very strongly that my gut feeling on a mechanic I haven't used should be considered over the intent of the designers and the experience of playtesters.

No gut feeling. Do the math. And if you want to know to what FFG playtesting amounts, look at X-Wing. Errata sheets as long as my arm and they still got balance issues.

40 minutes ago, Rumar said:

You obviously never played a Napoleonic wargame or read anything about Napoleonic warfare. That era was the last time a cavalry charge had a chance and most fighting took place without any cover whatsoever.

I've played a lot of Napoleonics. My point was more about static gun lines. I like games where you get stuck in, and i hope the objective system and the reasonable (but not overwhelming) cover advantages will keep a fairly fluid game.

7 minutes ago, Jedirev said:

I've played a lot of Napoleonics. My point was more about static gun lines. I like games where you get stuck in, and i hope the objective system and the reasonable (but not overwhelming) cover advantages will keep a fairly fluid game.

But strong cover is important for fluidity, because it forces you to move into cover and to flank enemy cover. As opposed to the warfare of antiquity were you line up your troops and press "go".

5 minutes ago, Rumar said:

But strong cover is important for fluidity, because it forces you to move into cover and to flank enemy cover. As opposed to the warfare of antiquity were you line up your troops and press "go".

Yes, but you still move to capture objectives.

24 minutes ago, Jedirev said:

Yes, but you still move to capture objectives.

Only if you can get to the objectives without wiping out the entire opposition. You need objectives to prevent turtling. To encourage maneuvering you need terrain that makes a difference.

29 minutes ago, Rumar said:

Only if you can get to the objectives without wiping out the entire opposition. You need objectives to prevent turtling. To encourage maneuvering you need terrain that makes a difference.

Which at present, as I showed, it does.

I agree that it doesn't scale as such but that's a separate issue for later. Right now it is extremely effective, against anything that has so far been revealed.

11 hours ago, jonboyjon1990 said:

Isn't there an entire section of rules about suppression fire and morale, that wasn't included in the TC demo vid? Surely that interacts with the cover system and makes it more valuable?

Quoting Xargonaut from the New Weapons Upgrade thread:

For courage it's a bit more complex than that. A FFG contractor explained it a little bit in another thread. I hope I remember it correctly:

SUPPRESSION EFFECT: When a unit takes as many suppression tokens as their courage value, it gets one less action during its activation. If the unit gets as many as double their courage value in suppression tokens, than the unit can only do move actions (probably compulsory moves), and these moves must be towards their table edge.

GETTING SUPPRESSION TOKENS: as soon as a unit gets at least one hit from an enemy unit (doesn't matter if it results in actual damage or not) it gets a suppression token (targeted unit only gets at most 1 suppression token per enemy unit who hits it). During each turn's end phase, all units remove one of their suppression tokens for free.

you are trying to make game design decisions from a video or two? I'm not sure any argument based on the information we have is worth consideration.

It seems like a lot of opinions on what does and doesn't work for a game that hasn't made it out of the box yet.