After reading the Raddus bomb threat/d (discuss it there not here) I was wondering about which other objectives build in and came with that:

What happens with choosing objectives ships or assigning objective tokens?

We didn't have that problem before cause the only way was through hyperspace objective but not anymore.

I suppose that they are not in play so I cannot choose them but is true that is was not a problem to some cards (hyperspace assault or RLB). However those cards directly interact with this situation so not sure how much they would work as guide. So basically: I think you cannot choose those ships to be the objective ship (ex: advanced gunnery) or assign them objective tokens (ex: blockade run).

Blockade run would be really funny to play with this if able.

Btw: it would be great FFG allowed Profundity to move the VIP token into Tantive IV lol

You're right as normally the designation of objective ships or assigning of tokens happens after deploying fleets and both Radus and Profundity happens before deploying fleets.

It can also serve as a pseudo-nerf to Most Wanted if you are first player as you can "hide" your biggest ship so the opponent can't choose it as an objective ship

Yeah, I would think you can't assign objective tokens to a ship that isn't in play. But don't forget that the scoring on Blockade Run relies on the objective tokens for both players - the ships held in reserve don't award player two VPs for being destroyed or failing to reach the endzone. Might make Blockade Run a different ballgame for slower ships that don't expect to make it to the end, or close range ships that don't expect to survive their bombing run.

Bump.

Can you asign your Raddus's set aside ship to be an objective ship for Most Wanted and Advanced Gunnery?

18 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Bump.

Can you asign your Raddus's set aside ship to be an objective ship for Most Wanted and Advanced Gunnery?

This will depend entirely on timing. When is it chosen?

Now, I guess there is nothing specific to say that your objective ship must be in play, so the answer may be a flat “yes”... but even if not:

if it’s chosen during deployment, then ostensibly you could choose it before putting it aside.

if it is chosen after deployment, then the ship is not in play and thus not a legal target for effects.

im going to check the faq for that last bit, too...

Edit:

okdy, so it all hinges on this:

”Ships and squadrons set aside are not in play. Their abilities and upgrades are inactive and they cannot be affected by any abilities.”

is is being an objective ship an “ability”?

It can only be answered subjectively as the word “ability” is not defined in the RRG as such.

ergo:

if it is an ability (and I believe it is, again, subjectively) then the Raddus’d ship cannot be an objective ship in those missions, as it has already been set aside.

it may have to concern itself with Fraggles, however.

That was my interpretation too, a half hearted no.

On 12/27/2017 at 1:07 PM, Drasnighta said:

This will depend entirely on timing. When is it chosen?

Now, I guess there is nothing specific to say that your objective ship must be in play, so the answer may be a flat “yes”... but even if not:

if it’s chosen during deployment, then ostensibly you could choose it before putting it aside.

if it is chosen after deployment, then the ship is not in play and thus not a legal target for effects.

im going to check the faq for that last bit, too...

Edit:

okdy, so it all hinges on this:

”Ships and squadrons set aside are not in play. Their abilities and upgrades are inactive and they cannot be affected by any abilities.”

is is being an objective ship an “ability”?

It can only be answered subjectively as the word “ability” is not defined in the RRG as such.

ergo:

if it is an ability (and I believe it is, again, subjectively) then the Raddus’d ship cannot be an objective ship in those missions, as it has already been set aside.

it may have to concern itself with Fraggles, however.

I am of a mind for a solid NO on Most Wanted, due to the timing, but a yes to Blockade Run, again, due to the timing. IMNSHO I see it as you choose the objective card and follow its instructions; if those instructions have an instruction without timing, you do it at the time it is chosen. In the case of Most Wanted, the first action it tells you to take is to assign tokens (everything else is information, not an instruction on timing), so you assign them, then you set up obstacles, then set aside ship(s), then deploy. We all know that a great many rules conundrums get decided by timing.

Yep, and it seems Blockade Run doesn’t even HAVE any timing to boot!

On 1/20/2018 at 3:55 AM, Admiral Theia said:

I am of a mind for a solid NO on Most Wanted, due to the timing, but a yes to Blockade Run, again, due to the timing. IMNSHO I see it as you choose the objective card and follow its instructions; if those instructions have an instruction without timing, you do it at the time it is chosen. In the case of Most Wanted, the first action it tells you to take is to assign tokens (everything else is information, not an instruction on timing), so you assign them, then you set up obstacles, then set aside ship(s), then deploy. We all know that a great many rules conundrums get decided by timing.

Huh?

Setup: After deploying fleets , the second player chooses 1 of his ships and 1 of the first player's ships to be the objective ships.

We had this exact situation come up today in a game. My opponent was first player and chose my Most Wanted. He played Raddus, selected his MC80 Mon Karren, and we concluded I could not choose this MC80 for my Most Wanted target (after we deployed!) because it was not on the table. It really made a huge difference on the game. I'm hoping it won't take 8 months to have this resolved in the FAQ,

6 hours ago, Thraug said:

Huh?

Setup: After deploying fleets , the second player chooses 1 of his ships and 1 of the first player's ships to be the objective ships.

We had this exact situation come up today in a game. My opponent was first player and chose my Most Wanted. He played Raddus, selected his MC80 Mon Karren, and we concluded I could not choose this MC80 for my Most Wanted target (after we deployed!) because it was not on the table. It really made a huge difference on the game. I'm hoping it won't take 8 months to have this resolved in the FAQ,

I think we are saying the same thing. I was saying a "solid no" on most wanted for putting the Raddus ship (or profundity) as the objective ship.

Let's speculate a bit, by thinking what the outcome would be if Objectives could affect set aside ships - the objective cards all seem to refer to "ships" not "ships in play" or "deployed ships" or whatever. There seem to be four categories of objectives worth considering:

1. Opening Salvo, Precision Strike and Salvage Run - the Objective affects all of a player's ships,
2. Advanced Gunnery, Intel Sweep, Most Wanted - the Objective involves choosing a ship,
3. Solar Corona, Superior Positions - the Objective affects deployment of ships,
4. Hyperspace Assault - the weird one.

For 1., these objectives give some benefit to all of a player's ships - each getting a token. If Objectives apply to set aside ships, this is good for the player setting stuff aside, if not, it is bad for them. So this goes either way.

2. are the ones we're mainly talking about here. Advanced Gunnery and Intel Sweep have advantages and disadvantages to being put on a set aside ship, Most Wanted could give a benefit to the player, as they could keep a small objective ship safe by never deploying it. But then they'd be wasting at least 18 points of ship plus the points for Raddus/Profundity. Again, either way.

For 3., the wording says "The first player must deploy all of his ships and squadrons before the second player." If Objective Card effects applied to set aside ships, these Objectives would counteract a first player's Raddus/Profundity/Rapid Launch Bays. If they did set aside a ship (or squadrons), they would still need to deploy it (as it is a ship) before the second player deployed. Now, this would still be the first player's choice (to pick those objectives), but for me this weighs against Objective Card effects applying to set aside ships.

Finally 4. This is interesting to see how it interacts with Raddus/Profundity/Rapid Launch Bays. Could you set aside a ship using Profundity, and then set aside the same ship using Hyperspace Assault? If Objective Cards can affect set aside ships, you could. That way you could add even more uncertainty as to when and where your ship will deploy. Thematically, though, it wouldn't make sense (at least with Profundity and RLBs). Which for me suggests that Objective Cards shouldn't be able to affect set aside ships. On the other hand, if a "set aside" ship can't be affected by Objective Cards at all, then that would lead to the absurd result of never being able to deploy your Hyperspace Assault ship - as the Hyperspace Assault objective wouldn't be able to affect the set aside ship to deploy it. Thus Objective Cards must be able to affect set aside ships.

Except... that problem would also arise with Raddus/Profundity/RLB. Here the FAQ is clear that set aside stuff can't be affected by abilities. And yet clearly they can be affected by the Raddus/Profundity/RLB abilities. So this rule can't be absolute. So if Objective Cards are to be consistent, there'd be an exception to the "can't be affected by abilities" rule for "aside from abilities that explicitly refer to doing things to set aside ships."

If we add in that implicit exception to the FAQ ruling, then I'd go with Objective Cards not being able to affect set aside ships - for consistency with upgrade cards, and making objective categories 3. and 4. still work sensibly. So no designating a set aside ship as an Objective Ship, or getting free tokens.

Yes. I'm a bit bored this weekend, and have gone without playing any Armada for too long.

Follow-up question: could you set aside a ship with both Raddus and Profundity - keeping your opponent guessing as to where your ship would deploy? Thematically, no. And if we take the power to set aside a ship as an "ability", then no - as once the ship was selected for one of these it couldn't then be affected by the ability on the other ship. On the other hand, the rule that upgrade cards can't affect set aside ships can't be absolute, or that would lead to the same absurd situation as with Hyperspace Assault - that a ship set aside by Raddus could never deploy.

5 minutes ago, Grumbleduke said:

Follow-up question: could you set aside a ship with both Raddus and Profundity - keeping your opponent guessing as to where your ship would deploy? Thematically, no. And if we take the power to set aside a ship as an "ability", then no - as once the ship was selected for one of these it couldn't then be affected by the ability on the other ship. On the other hand, the rule that upgrade cards can't affect set aside ships can't be absolute, or that would lead to the same absurd situation as with Hyperspace Assault - that a ship set aside by Raddus could never deploy.

You can resolve simultaneous effects in order of your choosing. So resolve Profundity first.

4 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

You can resolve simultaneous effects in order of your choosing. So resolve Profundity first.

It's not about timing; it's about whether you could set aside the same ship using both Raddus and Profundity; there's be very little reason why you would as Profundity is almost entirely a more restricted version of Raddus (just giving you a small bit of extra flexibility with moving Commanders/Officers), but it could be an option. You'd only be able to resolve one of them.

9 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

You can resolve simultaneous effects in order of your choosing. So resolve Profundity first.

I think he is asking of the same ship can be set aside by those two effects.

16 minutes ago, Grumbleduke said:

Follow-up question: could you set aside a ship with both Raddus and Profundity - keeping your opponent guessing as to where your ship would deploy? Thematically, no. And if we take the power to set aside a ship as an "ability", then no - as once the ship was selected for one of these it couldn't then be affected by the ability on the other ship. On the other hand, the rule that upgrade cards can't affect set aside ships can't be absolute, or that would lead to the same absurd situation as with Hyperspace Assault - that a ship set aside by Raddus could never deploy.

No. When you resolve profundity on one ship, that ship won't be in play when you move to Raddus.

Also the advantage would be none. With Raddus you may deploy at distance 1 of any ship, included Profundity.

Very thorough post Grumbleduke, thanks. I'm pretty sure the numerous interactions you mention mean a FAQ for this won't he seen before Thanksgiving.

I'm sorry Grumbleduke, but I have to disagree with the premise of your entire analysis.

Your whole line of argumentation revolves around the question of whether Objective Card effects apply to set aside ships. There is no question whatsoever about that: Objective card effects, just like any other effects, apply to all ships in play .

As per the FAQ (see in particular p.6 last paragraph), ships in play include:

• (A) Ships that have been neither deployed nor set aside
• (B) Ships that have been deployed

Ships in play do not include:

• (C) Ships that have been set aside

With objective and upgrade cards alike, you resolve effects normally insofar as they affect ships that, at the time of resolving , are in states (A) and (B). Ships in state (C) are ignored when resolving card effects (except when explicitly indicated), until they are deployed and join state (B).

So it all revolves around timing: s hips normally transition from state (A) to state (B). In some cases, they transition from state (A) to (C) and then to (B). Whether an effect from an o bjective or upgrade card affects a particular ship depends only on whether the timing of the effect is:

• Before the A-C transition: ship is in play (effect triggers)
• After A-C transition but before C-B transition: ship is not in play (effect does not trigger)
• After C-B transition: ship is in play (effect triggers)

With e.g. Advanced Gunnery, a set aside ship cannot possibly be designated as objective ship, because it is not in play at the time the effect is resolved. It's not a matter of weighing the pros and cons: the rules simply forbid it. The same story with Opening Salvo, Precision Strike, etc: set aside ships cannot receive any tokens because they are not in play "after deploying fleets".

The problem with Blockade Run is that the effect contains no timing - so we are not told whether the tokens should be added before setting aside ships (in which case all ships will be eligible for tokens) or after setting aside ships (in which case some will be ineligible). Now, in my opinion, the effect is worded "universally" such that it should be enforced at game start, i.e. before setting aside ships. But that's just my interpretation, as the timing remains undefined. It's just that ships are only set aside during a relatively narrow time window, and there is no particular indication that the effect should be resolved during that window rather than before (or after).

7 hours ago, Grumbleduke said:

It's not about timing; it's about whether you could set aside the same ship using both Raddus and Profundity; there's be very little reason why you would as Profundity is almost entirely a more restricted version of Raddus (just giving you a small bit of extra flexibility with moving Commanders/Officers), but it could be an option. You'd only be able to resolve one of them.

But it is about timing:

• Profundity and Raddus have the same timing, so you choose which one to resolve first; let's say Profundity.
• Once Profundity has been resolved, the chosen ship has been set aside and therefore cannot be affected by other effects, including Raddus. It's simply not available to be chosen.

6 minutes ago, DiabloAzul said:

Objective card effects, just like any other effects, apply to all ships in play .

Of course they do. But do they also apply to ships not in play?

Page 6 last paragraph confirms that ships set aside are not in play, and that their ship, squadron, and upgrade cards are not active - it doesn't say anything about set aside ships not being affected by anything else. For that we have the clarification to Hyperspace Assault, which says "Ships and squadrons set aside are not in play. Their abilities and upgrades are inactive and they cannot be affected by any abilities."

So "abilities" can't affect ships set aside. But does "abilities" include "Objective Card rules?" Helpfully the word "ability" (or variants) doesn't appear in the RRG. It's used in the FAQ to refer to stuff that does stuff, but never (as far as I can tell) explicitly to the effects of Objective Cards. Hence going through the Objectives to see how they would be affected by Objective Card effects being "abilities" or not. And finding that the more sensible option is "not."

Now if you think that's obvious, great. I thought it was at least interesting, and worth setting out the options, given it was a slow Sunday afternoon.

On the Raddus/Profundity/RLB question, I'm not sure why I asked that now - I remember thinking at the time that this wouldn't be an issue as a set aside ship or squadron couldn't be affected by other effects. I think it was an "if setting aside a ship isn't an ability" possibility. Or based on the fact that Raddus/Profundity/RLB can affect ships that are set aside, but obviously only the ability to deploy them.

8 hours ago, ovinomanc3r said:

With Raddus you may deploy at distance 1 of any ship, included Profundity.

Yep, but with Profundity you get to move a Commander/Officer across to the new ship. Very, very slight advantage.

4 hours ago, Grumbleduke said:

Yep, but with Profundity you get to move a Commander/Officer across to the new ship. Very, very slight advantage.

12 hours ago, Grumbleduke said:

Follow-up question: could you set aside a ship with both Raddus and Profundity - keeping your opponent guessing as to where your ship would deploy ?

My point stands.

6 hours ago, Grumbleduke said:

Of course they do. But do they also apply to ships not in play?

@DiabloAzul is right here.

The GSD that I left at home is not in play: I choose it as my objective ship.

Also look that answering your question with a no, they are not doesn't solve anything, cause then the timing will still matter to see if the ship is out of play when the effect/ability triggers.

Interesting and pertinent rule; RR, p5: "During setup, no card effects can be resolved except objective card eff ects."

I offer no opinion as it has already been forcefully pointed out that my opinion is both worthless and unwelcome.

1 hour ago, Don Henderson fan club said:

Interesting and pertinent rule; RR, p5: "During setup, no card effects can be resolved except objective card eff ects."

I offer no opinion as it has already been forcefully pointed out that my opinion is both worthless and unwelcome.

Raddus clearly overwrite that.

Golden Rule said:

Effects on components such as cards sometimes contradict rules found in the Learn to Play or Rules Reference booklets. In these situations, the component’s effect takes precedence.

Also, we are here discussing how to resolve objective cards, in fact.

On 12/27/2017 at 4:07 PM, Drasnighta said:

This will depend entirely on timing. When is it chosen?

Now, I guess there is nothing specific to say that your objective ship must be in play, so the answer may be a flat “yes”... but even if not:

if it’s chosen during deployment, then ostensibly you could choose it before putting it aside.

if it is chosen after deployment, then the ship is not in play and thus not a legal target for effects.

im going to check the faq for that last bit, too...

Edit:

okdy, so it all hinges on this:

”Ships and squadrons set aside are not in play. Their abilities and upgrades are inactive and they cannot be affected by any abilities.”

is is being an objective ship an “ability”?

It can only be answered subjectively as the word “ability” is not defined in the RRG as such.

ergo:

if it is an ability (and I believe it is, again, subjectively) then the Raddus’d ship cannot be an objective ship in those missions, as it has already been set aside.

it may have to concern itself with Fraggles, however.

Wish I had seen this sooner, as I just posed a similar question. (they just blocked the FFG forums at work recently so I haven't been able to keep up with the latest discussions very often).

But yeah, I think if they ALLOW you to select a not-in-play ship as an objective ship... then that may potentially have some balance concerns - but ultimately I don't think it really breaks much. Perhaps Raddus warps in a ship, but hey that ship STILL can't go first, so you can still react.

Say Profundity warps in an Adv Gunnerie'd Hammerhead with Expanded Launchers - Yeah that'll be a tough shot - but it's the only one they're gonna get. So is it balanced? Maybe.

I feel like it'd be fun to see people selecting a Hammerhead as the target of Adv Gunnery. I'd root for them to allow that sort of thing.