It's worth pointing out that the Hyperspace Raddus Bomb is really more of a thought exercise than a likely result because which first player is going to be insane enough to look at a 3 ship Raddus fleet and pick Hyperspace Assault?

It's also worth mentioning that the Russian Radus+Profundity Doll bomb can be prevented simply by placing TIE's/X-Wings in close escort since the cards both specifically state that you can't deploy onto fighters.

So, my gut is, even if you can Raddus+Profundity two ships out of one in a daisy chain, clever Squadron positioning is going to make this extremely difficult to get that magic position. Especially since you opponent is going to get AT LEAST one activation to move the ambushed ship out of the trap after blasting the **** out of whoever. Sure you could block with a ship in the front, but if this is an ISD you're trying this on he's going to just LOVE that.

I will say you should still take Hyperspace Assault as one of your Objectives because it effectively means you are only bringing 2 Objective cards.

The 3 ship raddus bomb is also a good way to lose turn one.

2 minutes ago, Madaghmire said:

The 3 ship raddus bomb is also a good way to lose turn one.

How?

You're not tabled unless you're destroyed. Nothing is destroyed. ergo, you can't lose.

That is one of the fundamental assumptions that people are making - that tabling involves not having ships on the table... But in the RRG, it is stated as "not having ships on the table because they have been destroyed." This is repeated in the Tournament Regulations. With the Destroyed Caveat.

I mean, I guess you could lose because your opponent punches you in the face for trying to pull that crap off, but then, that's likely to get them disqualified, so you kind of win anyway.

14 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Yes but my question basically is why, after deploying the first ship we are no longer in the timing that let us resolve another effect with the same timing?

If we are at the correct timing and the effect is right there, what is the problem?

I understand the thigh that it was not there (it was set aside). I don't understand why we are not still there (the timing)

If you were to resolve a maneuver and land on an asteroid and pull Damaged Controls, do you still resolve it?

If you were to resolve a maneuver and land on an asteroid and pull Ruptured Engine, do you still resolve it?

I actually do not know the answer to these questions, but I have always played them as being "no" I do not resolve them because they happen after I maneuver. If I am wrong, I'd be willing to concede my point about Raddus and Profundity. These examples would provide precedence to allow effects to trigger in the same window despite being added to the queue after the initial trigger happened.

Just now, Undeadguy said:

If you were to resolve a maneuver and land on an asteroid and pull Damaged Controls, do you still resolve it?

If you were to resolve a maneuver and land on an asteroid and pull Ruptured Engine, do you still resolve it?

I actually do not know the answer to these questions, but I have always played them as being "no" I do not resolve them because they happen after I maneuver. If I am wrong, I'd be willing to concede my point about Raddus and Profundity. These examples would provide precedence to allow effects to trigger in the same window despite being added to the queue after the initial trigger happened.

The accepted answer is 'No' in both of those cases.

11 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

The accepted answer is 'No' in both of those cases.

I think this is as close to an example as we can have. I still think it should get an FAQ because it is quite tricky.

33 minutes ago, Mward1984 said:

It's worth pointing out that the Hyperspace Raddus Bomb is really more of a thought exercise than a likely result because which first player is going to be insane enough to look at a 3 ship Raddus fleet and pick Hyperspace Assault?

It's also worth mentioning that the Russian Radus+Profundity Doll bomb can be prevented simply by placing TIE's/X-Wings in close escort since the cards both specifically state that you can't deploy onto fighters.

So, my gut is, even if you can Raddus+Profundity two ships out of one in a daisy chain, clever Squadron positioning is going to make this extremely difficult to get that magic position. Especially since you opponent is going to get AT LEAST one activation to move the ambushed ship out of the trap after blasting the **** out of whoever. Sure you could block with a ship in the front, but if this is an ISD you're trying this on he's going to just LOVE that.

I will say you should still take Hyperspace Assault as one of your Objectives because it effectively means you are only bringing 2 Objective cards.

Not entirely true. While I would never choose Hyperspace Assult. For this battle in a tournament, I don't think I could pass it up in a casual game. Especially if I have a strategic squadron or two! That game would be a blast to play!

33 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

How?

You're not tabled unless you're destroyed. Nothing is destroyed. ergo, you can't lose.

That is one of the fundamental assumptions that people are making - that tabling involves not having ships on the table... But in the RRG, it is stated as "not having ships on the table because they have been destroyed." This is repeated in the Tournament Regulations. With the Destroyed Caveat.

I mean, I guess you could lose because your opponent punches you in the face for trying to pull that crap off, but then, that's likely to get them disqualified, so you kind of win anyway.

I dont have the rrg in front of me and I'm not sure it covers this, but I feel like you need to have ships on the table. For example, if all your ships go down before you hype in, that ship counts as destroyed and you are tabled. What makes this different? What stops you from bidding second, going to time and winning every game six-five? 18 pts wont win a small tourny, but 30 at the end of five might make a cut. The RRG and tourny regs were written before this existed. It was the only way ships wouldnt be on the table. I'm not a fan of RAI, but I'm a huge fan of not putting blinders on because the rulebook is outdated.

12 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

I mean, you're condescending reaction is great, but I'm a multi-time Store Champion and regional champion. So it's not like I don't understand Armada; in fact I think I generally have a decent grasp on the game. I can see the value in Raddus, though pretty exclusive as a way to "hide" your biggest ship during deployment. By his very nature, though, he'll probably make getting 9-10s difficult, which means he likely won't be a top spot Admiral (he seems like the kinda Admiral that'll just end up forcing a lot of your opponents to play for the 6-5). The Profundity though still just seems like a colossal waste of points, deployments, and activation, and I haven't seen anyone defending it, really.

Ha! A day after they announced, make a topic to call parts of it out "really bad". Mr. I am so awesome at this game, kinda disrespectful to the designers if you ask me, they spend a lot of time and effort and this game and I am grateful for more options especially after the flight report letdown and forum anxiety. Geez, at least let the wave get released and try it out before passing judgement.

Just now, Madaghmire said:

I dont have the rrg in front of me and I'm not sure it covers this, but I feel like you need to have ships on the table. For example, if all your ships go down before you hype in, that ship counts as destroyed and you are tabled. What makes this different? What stops you from bidding second, going to time and winning every game six-five? 18 pts wont win a small tourny, but 30 at the end of five might make a cut.

I have the RRG in front of me.

RRG, Page 13, "Winning and losing"

• If all ships in a fleet are destroyed, ignoring squadrons, the game immediately ends. The player with one or more ships remaining in the play area is the winner.

From the Tournament regulations

• One Player Defeated: At the end of a game round, all of one player’s ships are destroyed. The player with at least one ship remaining earns a win and the opposing player receives a loss.

From the HA FAQ:

If all of a player’s ships in the play area are destroyed, his ships and squadrons that are set aside are also destroyed. If the game goes to time, or the end of the sixth round, his ships and squadrons that are set aside are destroyed.

All of them reference "if all of a players ships in the play area are destroyed". Which is, as I said, a divide by 0 case, because never having any ships in the play area does not equate that they are destroyed, they were never there to begin with.

The only thing here is:

RRG, Page 5, "Destroyed Ships and Squadrons "

A ship is destroyed when it has damage cards equaling or exceeding its hull value. A squadron is destroyed when it is reduced to zero hull points. Additionally, a ship or squadron is destroyed if a portion of its base is outside the play area.

If you interepret that in the strictest ruling possible, then setting aside a ship in Hyperspace destroys it immediately, and there's never any point to hyper spacing, so that cannot be a legal interpretation of destroyed.

24 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

If you were to resolve a maneuver and land on an asteroid and pull Damaged Controls, do you still resolve it?

If you were to resolve a maneuver and land on an asteroid and pull Ruptured Engine, do you still resolve it?

I actually do not know the answer to these questions, but I have always played them as being "no" I do not resolve them because they happen after I maneuver. If I am wrong, I'd be willing to concede my point about Raddus and Profundity. These examples would provide precedence to allow effects to trigger in the same window despite being added to the queue after the initial trigger happened.

Yeah, I suppose... how it would be?

After execute the maneuver, when I overlap the obstacle I take a damage card. I didn't go through this timing so the damage card would trigger under this logic if it would have a matching timing.

I don't play it that way.

Let's put together what we "know".

1. We don't chose and order of resolution per the evade token FAQ

2. The new damage card doesn't trigger per all we play it.

That is how I could explain to myself:

When the correct timing occurs we can "activate" as many effects we want/should matching the timing window. Those "activated" effects may be resolved one each time. Then we pick one and resolve. If a new effect with the same timing arrives, it cannot be resolved as long as it was not "activated" when we have to do it.

Maybe it is just stupid but it helps me.

9 minutes ago, Madaghmire said:

I dont have the rrg in front of me and I'm not sure it covers this, but I feel like you need to have ships on the table. For example, if all your ships go down before you hype in, that ship counts as destroyed and you are tabled. What makes this different? What stops you from bidding second, going to time and winning every game six-five? 18 pts wont win a small tourny, but 30 at the end of five might make a cut.

Paraphrasing here, as RAW not in front of me. Pretty sure any ships or squadrons held off the table count as destroyed (1) at the end of turn 6, or (2) when all deployed ships are destroyed.

1) if you dont deploy. You lose.

2)ships that are not yet deployed cant be destroyed until end of game. See (1).

Pretty sure I just got ninjad...

45 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

I mean, I guess you could lose because your opponent punches you in the face for trying to pull that crap off, but then, that's likely to get them disqualified, so you kind of win anyway.

Who's pulling crap? That said opponent went and picked Hyperspace Assault. You didn't force him. He could see what fleet you brought, he could clearly see Raddus and an MC75, he had to guess something was up when you asked him "are you SURE you want to pick Hyperspace Assault?" in the tones that GM use to tell you when you are doing something idiotic.

And the other big inkling I have, and have stated is this line:

During setup, if the second player must deploy a squadron but cannot because he or she has no ships in the play area, his or her squadrons that are not set aside are destroyed.

If the game was to end, shouldn't it say that, rather than just destroying those squadrons?

1 minute ago, Mward1984 said:

Who's pulling crap? That said opponent went and picked Hyperspace Assault. You didn't force him. He could see what fleet you brought, he could clearly see Raddus and an MC75, he had to guess something was up when you asked him "are you SURE you want to pick Hyperspace Assault?" in the tones that GM use to tell you when you are doing something idiotic.

I completely agree with you.

I was just quoting a statement i got on facebook from a playtester on that matter.

I see the RAW. I don't like it. You should have to deploy at least one ship. I hope this is addressed.

5 minutes ago, Madaghmire said:

I see the RAW. I don't like it. You should have to deploy at least one ship. I hope this is addressed.

A perfectly acceptable and reasonable response to the matter.

i too hope its addressed. Don't care which way, really... Just want a hole in the rules patched... because I hate divide by 0s.

2 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

A perfectly acceptable and reasonable response to the matter.

i too hope its addressed. Don't care which way, really... Just want a hole in the rules patched... because I hate divide by 0s.

What can possibly go wrong?!

I hate to do this, but I'm going to come out and say I disagree with @Drasnighta's conclusions re timing windows.

...and then fail to supply evidence or a solid chain of reasoning because I'm in a hurry right now. But I promise I'll come back and explain it in full later.

I'd like to be proven wrong. Especially if its in a way that ties up all understandings and statements and doesn't leave us with contradictions.

Its entirely possible I've been running from a flawed perspective, anyway. This is why my old signature said I wasn't a Rules Guru

1 hour ago, DiabloAzul said:

...and then fail to supply evidence or a solid chain of reasoning because I'm in a hurry right now.

I would go with that they're all "At the start of..." situations. Multiple things can happen during an "At the start of..." period, and until they're all resolved, we're still "At the start of..." that period - we haven't moved into that period properly. So once something has HA'd in, we're still "at the start of" the round, meaning more "at the start of" effects can happen. But I can also see the logic in it being the other way - that the condition for allowing these effects is instantaneous, it is merely the resolution that happens when the player chooses.

To use an existing example, how does Hyperspace Assault interact with Bel Iblis? If a ship HA's in on the fifth round (for some crazy reason) does it get the Bel Iblis token?

On a similar note, has anyone had issues with Han Solo and Reinforced Blast Doors interacting; both happen "At the start of the ship phase" - does this mean initiative comes into play and if Han Solo is 1st player he can activate before his opponent resolves their RBDs, potentially killing a ship before it can remove the damage? Based on the RRG it looks like it does:

Quote

If both players have effects with the same timing, the first player resolves all of his effects with that timing first.

I guess the same applies to Tarkin, Hondo and the Fleet Command upgrades; a first player Han Solo could potentially take them out before they get to activate during a round.

All of that is not a problem.

Now, before all of that. Take your Scenario, and stick Han Solo into Hyperspace Assault.

That's the issue at core we're discussing:

He doesn't get put on the board until that timing window. While he is off the board, his rules text does not exist. So he can't neceessarily be "sorted" into the mix until he's placed. And he might not be placed until the 4th, 5th, or 6th thing in that order... You've already started to resolve the order. Do you get to tag his ability onto the end and let him go haring off?

I say no.

DA will likely prove me otherwise - if anyone is going to Rules-Fu me upside the head, it'll be him

3 minutes ago, Grumbleduke said:

I would go with that they're all "At the start of..." situations. Multiple things can happen during an "At the start of..." period, and until they're all resolved, we're still "At the start of..." that period - we haven't moved into that period properly. So once something has HA'd in, we're still "at the start of" the round, meaning more "at the start of" effects can happen. But I can also see the logic in it being the other way - that the condition for allowing these effects is instantaneous, it is merely the resolution that happens when the player chooses.

To use an existing example, how does Hyperspace Assault interact with Bel Iblis? If a ship HA's in on the fifth round (for some crazy reason) does it get the Bel Iblis token?

On a similar note, has anyone had issues with Han Solo and Reinforced Blast Doors interacting; both happen "At the start of the ship phase" - does this mean initiative comes into play and if Han Solo is 1st player he can activate before his opponent resolves their RBDs, potentially killing a ship before it can remove the damage? Based on the RRG it looks like it does:

I guess the same applies to Tarkin, Hondo and the Fleet Command upgrades; a first player Han Solo could potentially take them out before they get to activate during a round.

The reported issue is that:

HA is at the start

Raddus is at the start

Profundity is at the he start

But at the start of the round, only HA is in play.

While in your Garm Bel example both, HA and Garm are in play. Other thing would be if Garm is in the hehe ship which is entering. This is he case we are discussing.

Ninjad what a surprise!!

2 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

DA will likely prove me otherwise - if anyone is going to Rules-Fu me upside the head, it'll be him

Thank [you] Luke Skywalker