1 minute ago, Triangular said:

I like to make people laugh. And I'm okay not to produce tokens with gained tokens. It's only that I don't understand the way it has been reasoned. JJ says you can't produce a token with Thrawn-dials, because it's gained . A token must be revealed .

But the same reason would apply to command effects, when you read the according paragraph in RRG. You may laugh, because you understand the difference I cannot catch. May I ask, when you finished laughing, would you explain it to me?

To get a token, you must convert you dial after you REVEAL it. That's the condition/timing.

But you never REVEAL the Thrawn-dial, so there is no opportunity for conversion.

3 hours ago, dominosfleet said:

"When a ship is activated, its owner reveals that ship’s top command dial and places it next to the ship in the play area. It can be spent immediately to assign the corresponding command token to that ship, or it can be spent at the appropriate time to resolve that command ."

But where is the difference to the command effect? In RRG it says: 1) Reveal dial 2a) It can be spent immediately for a token OR 2b) at the appropriate time to resolve that commnand.

When you say 1 is a condition for 2a it also is for 2b, isn't it?

1 hour ago, Triangular said:

But where is the difference to the command effect? In RRG it says: 1) Reveal dial 2a) It can be spent immediately for a token OR 2b) at the appropriate time to resolve that commnand.

When you say 1 is a condition for 2a it also is for 2b, isn't it?

Again: Thrawn's dial isn't revealed. So you can only save it and use it at the appropriate time. The opportunity to convert it never comes.

17 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Again: Thrawn's dial isn't revealed. So you can only save it and use it at the appropriate time. The opportunity to convert it never comes.

Okay, we can do this till eternity! I also could say: "Again: In the RRG they make no difference between spend your dial after revealing it. They say >>Reveal the dial. Spend it for a token or spend it for a command effect.<<"

Then you can say: "You cannot spend it because it's gained."

Then I will say: "Within this logic you couldn't spend it at all, because you have to reveal it before spending it for any cause, according to RRG. You don't answer to my point."

And you will say: "Again. You cannot spend ..."

And I will be tired and sick of it and give in. "Okay let's say you can't spend it for a token, just because. That's better than this ill logic."
And you will say: "Again: ..."

And I will sigh very hard and beat my head against the desktop even harder and say: "You are right. You are so right! Forgive me! I will never say anything against you! But please say never the evil word ..."

And you will reply "...again?"

And I will jump out of the window ...

So I better quit this fruitless discussion and say: "You are right! You are so right! Because you're the Green Knight."

34 minutes ago, Triangular said:

Okay, we can do this till eternity! I also could say: "Again: In the RRG they make no difference between spend your dial after revealing it. They say >>Reveal the dial. Spend it for a token or spend it for a command effect.<<"

Then you can say: "You cannot spend it because it's gained."

Then I will say: "Within this logic you couldn't spend it at all, because you have to reveal it before spending it for any cause, according to RRG. You don't answer to my point."

And you will say: "Again. You cannot spend ..."

And I will be tired and sick of it and give in. "Okay let's say you can't spend it for a token, just because. That's better than this ill logic."
And you will say: "Again: ..."

And I will sigh very hard and beat my head against the desktop even harder and say: "You are right. You are so right! Forgive me! I will never say anything against you! But please say never the evil word ..."

And you will reply "...again?"

And I will jump out of the window ...

So I better quit this fruitless discussion and say: "You are right! You are so right! Because you're the Green Knight."

I don't quite understand how my interpretation being different from your interpretation equals total rant mode? I've disagreed with ppl on this forum before, but I've never had "jump out of window" thrown at me after I repeated (once or maybe twice?) my position.

For my own part I decided to listen to the card's designer when he pointed out the subtle difference between reveal a dial and gaining a Thrawn dial. Prior to that I believed there to be no difference.

If you want some good input, try summoning @JJs Juggernaut and/or @Drasnighta .

11 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

I don't quite understand how my interpretation being different from your interpretation equals total rant mode? I've disagreed with ppl on this forum before, but I've never had "jump out of window" thrown at me after I repeated (once or maybe twice?) my position.

For my own part I decided to listen to the card's designer when he pointed out the subtle difference between reveal a dial and gaining a Thrawn dial. Prior to that I believed there to be no difference.

If you want some good input, try summoning @JJs Juggernaut and/or @Drasnighta .

Dear Green Knight,

no offense meant! I don't need any further discussion. I just wanted to point out, that I don't see the logic in the reason of JJ. When you read the RRG-text, he referred to, you don't find the difference he makes for spending a dial for token or command effect. That's it and that's all.

But I don't mind at all! I'm okay with JJ's interpretation (not with the reason only). And should we two ever happen to see each other in real life, I will spend you a beer (not a token), if you want to drink one with me.

AND: I live ground floor. When I jump out of the window nothing bad will happen.

11 minutes ago, Triangular said:

I just wanted to point out, that I don't see the logic in the reason of JJ. When you read the RRG-text, he referred to, you don't find the difference he makes for spending a dial for token or command effect.

From the RRG:

Ships are activated during the Ship Phase. When a ship is activated, its owner proceeds through the following steps.
1 . Reveal Command Dial : Reveal the ship’s top command dial. Then either place the dial next to the ship in the play area or spend the dial to place the corresponding command token next to the ship in the play area .

The choice between blue or red only happens at step 1, i.e. upon revealing a dial.

@JJs Juggernaut point is that "gained" means "directly placed next to the ship in the play area" (blue option). As the revealing never happens, the chance for converting (red option) is never there. But all that is needed to resolve a command is to spend a dial/token, regardless of where it came from.

5 minutes ago, DiabloAzul said:

From the RRG:

Ships are activated during the Ship Phase. When a ship is
activated, its owner proceeds through the following steps.
1 . Reveal Command Dial : Reveal the ship’s top
command dial. Then either place the dial next to the
ship in the play area or spend the dial to place the
corresponding command token next to the ship in the
play area .

The choice between blue or red only happens at step 1, i.e. upon revealing a dial.

JJ's point is that "gained" means "directly placed next to the ship in the play area" (blue option). As the revealing never happens, the chance for converting (red option) is never there.

Yay for color coding!!! It really helps visualize/separate each step and it's timing, and makes it much easier to reference which specific sentence is being referred to

4 minutes ago, DiabloAzul said:

From the RRG:

Ships are activated during the Ship Phase. When a ship is
activated, its owner proceeds through the following steps.
1 . Reveal Command Dial : Reveal the ship’s top
command dial. Then either place the dial next to the
ship in the play area or spend the dial to place the
corresponding command token next to the ship in the
play area .

The choice between blue or red only happens at step 1, i.e. upon revealing a dial.

JJ's point is that "gained" means "directly placed next to the ship in the play area" (blue option). As the revealing never happens, the chance for converting (red option) is never there.

To further...

@Triangular argument is that there is no difference, as you have to reveal the Thrawn dial too....but wait!

The rules tells us 'when a ship reveals a command dial....etc.' So we have that IF a SHIP reveals a dial, it can be tokenized.

However.....the Thrawn dial is NOT revealed by a ship! Thrawn states that you reveal a dial at the start of the phase....this dial IS NOT REVEAKED BY A SHIP AT ALL, ITS REVEALED BY THRAWN. Then at the start of each individual ships phase, the ship acquires a copy of the dial....which has already been revealed, but not by a ship.

Since a ship did not reveal the dial, it cannot be tokenized, as only the dial revealed by a ship can be.

40 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

I don't quite understand how my interpretation being different from your interpretation equals total rant mode? I've disagreed with ppl on this forum before, but I've never had "jump out of window" thrown at me after I repeated (once or maybe twice?) my position.

For my own part I decided to listen to the card's designer when he pointed out the subtle difference between reveal a dial and gaining a Thrawn dial. Prior to that I believed there to be no difference.

If you want some good input, try summoning @JJs Juggernaut and/or @Drasnighta .

I think the logic @Triangular is trying to establish is as follows:

Normally a ship can reveal it's dial and keep or make a token. Since people are saying you cannot take a token with Thrawns dial, why would you be able to spend it during the normal the normal window.

If I can make a token or spend the dial normally, why can I only spend the dial and not make a token with Thrawn?

I feel the frustration more as him trying to ask a question and no one understanding what he is asking.

38 minutes ago, Darth Lupine said:

To further...

@Triangular argument is that there is no difference, as you have to reveal the Thrawn dial too....but wait!

The rules tells us 'when a ship reveals a command dial....etc.' So we have that IF a SHIP reveals a dial, it can be tokenized.

However.....the Thrawn dial is NOT revealed by a ship! Thrawn states that you reveal a dial at the start of the phase....this dial IS NOT REVEAKED BY A SHIP AT ALL, ITS REVEALED BY THRAWN. Then at the start of each individual ships phase, the ship acquires a copy of the dial....which has already been revealed, but not by a ship.

Since a ship did not reveal the dial, it cannot be tokenized, as only the dial revealed by a ship can be.

Mmmmm that's a sexy looking explanation

56 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

I think the logic @Triangular is trying to establish is as follows:

Normally a ship can reveal it's dial and keep or make a token. Since people are saying you cannot take a token with Thrawns dial, why would you be able to spend it during the normal the normal window.

If I can make a token or spend the dial normally, why can I only spend the dial and not make a token with Thrawn?

I was trying to address this logic directly.

Tokenizing a dial ( red option ) can only be done at the Reveal command dial step. It requires that the dial has just been revealed by a ship (which is not the case for Thrawn dials).

Spending a dial for any other purpose can be done " at the appropriate time " for resolving a command or at a time specified by an upgrade card (e.g. Boarding Troopers). For this, it is irrelevant where the dial came from: whether gained by chosing the blue option at the Reveal command dial step, by triggering Pursuant, or by using Thrawn to gain extra dials, the dial is available for spending.

*: RRG p. 3, Commands: "A ship can resolve the effect of a command by spending a command dial or command token with the matching icon at the appropriate time."

1 minute ago, DiabloAzul said:

I was trying to address this logic directly.

Tokenizing a dial ( red option ) can only be done at the Reveal command dial step. It requires that the dial has just been revealed by a ship (which is not the case for Thrawn dials).

Spending a dial for any other purpose can be done " at the appropriate time " for resolving a command or at a time specified by an upgrade card (e.g. Boarding Troopers). For this, it is irrelevant where the dial came from: whether gained by chosing the blue option at the Reveal command dial step, by triggering Pursuant, or by using Thrawn to gain extra dials, the dial is available for spending.

*: RRG p. 3, Commands: "A ship can resolve the effect of a command by spending a command dial or command token with the matching icon at the appropriate time."

I agree. Otherwise Thrawn is useless.

If this is the worst rules debate to come out of wave heaven, we are all still winning.

14 minutes ago, cynanbloodbane said:

If this is the worst rules debate to come out of wave heaven, we are all still winning.

We haven't seen the rest of the wave... who knows what FFG put in there.

9 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

We haven't seen the rest of the wave... who knows what FFG put in there.

That's why I said "if". But lets not get ahead of ourselves with rules confusion negativity, we still have all the fun of finding all the mistakes in the reveal articles, the game of being the first to discover what card changed between the wave announcement article and the reveal article and finding what beer pairs best with the new admirals.

For Raddus, I'm thinking Midas Touch from Dogfish head. Light, refreshing, goes well with fish & packs a very surprising ABV punch of 10%.

For Thrawn, I am leaning towards a bit of an outlier small batch, a ginger IPA made by my local Thirsty Dog. Potent, complicated, & with very little in the way of bitterness.

37 minutes ago, cynanbloodbane said:

That's why I said "if". But lets not get ahead of ourselves with rules confusion negativity, we still have all the fun of finding all the mistakes in the reveal articles, the game of being the first to discover what card changed between the wave announcement article and the reveal article and finding what beer pairs best with the new admirals.

For Raddus, I'm thinking Midas Touch from Dogfish head. Light, refreshing, goes well with fish & packs a very surprising ABV punch of 10%.

For Thrawn, I am leaning towards a bit of an outlier small batch, a ginger IPA made by my local Thirsty Dog. Potent, complicated, & with very little in the way of bitterness.

Ha, nice. But what about old admirals?

For one, I think Vader's "subtle" approach is best represented by Sink The Bismarck .

6 minutes ago, DiabloAzul said:

Ha, nice. But what about old admirals?

For one, I think Vader's "subtle" approach is best represented by Sink The Bismarck .

41% holycrap! That should do it for the Dark Lord of the Sith.

Looking at both entries "Command Dials" and "Commands" in the rules it seems pretty clear.

On 8/25/2017 at 0:53 PM, Ardaedhel said:

There is zero chance you're going to get double squadron dials, guys.

Zero.

Ref: designer's intent . Also the RRG.

While I agree your not getting double squadrons, It needs to be the FaQ or this doesn't matter.

3 hours ago, DiabloAzul said:

From the RRG:

Ships are activated during the Ship Phase. When a ship is activated, its owner proceeds through the following steps.
1 . Reveal Command Dial : Reveal the ship’s top command dial. Then either place the dial next to the ship in the play area or spend the dial to place the corresponding command token next to the ship in the play area .

The choice between blue or red only happens at step 1, i.e. upon revealing a dial.

@JJs Juggernaut point is that "gained" means "directly placed next to the ship in the play area" (blue option). As the revealing never happens, the chance for converting (red option) is never there. But all that is needed to resolve a command is to spend a dial/token, regardless of where it came from.

Finally I got an answer to my question! Thank you very much! Now the logic is clear and comprehensible! *Thumbs up!*

10 minutes ago, Hawktel said:

While I agree your not getting double squadrons, It needs to be the FaQ or this doesn't matter.

No it doesn't. It's very clear: the RRG specifies three ways to resolve a command--dial, token, or dial+token. There is no dial+dial, so you don't even know what it would do.

Sure, you can extrapolate what you think it would probably do, but the onus is on the player to show why he should be allowed to do something, not on his opponent to show why he shouldn't . And there is no such permission in the written rules.

7 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

No it doesn't. It's very clear: the RRG specifies three ways to resolve a command--dial, token, or dial+token. There is no dial+dial, so you don't even know what it would do.

Sure, you can extrapolate what you think it would probably do, but the onus is on the player to show why he should be allowed to do something, not on his opponent to show why he shouldn't . And there is no such permission in the written rules.

Yeah. So clear it spawned a 5 page thread on its various interpretations.

FaQ it please FFG.

3 minutes ago, Hawktel said:

Yeah. So clear it spawned a 5 page thread on its various interpretations.

FaQ it please FFG.

It doesn't need an FAQ, the person who designed the card said how it works, there is no point in arguing, it's like receiving an FAQ and still trying to talk around it

9 minutes ago, Hawktel said:

Yeah. So clear it spawned a 5 page thread on its various interpretations.

FaQ it please FFG.

We can't help it if people don't listen and ask the same questions. I mean, I would if I could, but that'd make me a horribly individual, performing all of those frontal lobotomies...

Heck, the FAQ doesn't stop that, either. Look at how many times I answer questions in the rules Sub-Forum with FAQ quotes.

... Also. 5 pages? " LOL ". Heck, that's not even an over-coffee-warmup compared to most actual "arguments". I mean, please, Oranple .

In short. FAQs are bad things . You Never want to include general information in them. Information that is directly supported by the rules and is explained within the rules should never make it to an errata or FAQ document . It encourages people to not read the **** rules. or rather, it encourages people to read and not understand , bceause they expect everything to be explicitly stated for them, rather than determining how the rules interactions actually work.

Your FAQ should be for things that aren't explained in the rules, inso much that there is not even for a way to infer it from the rules (and Thrawn can be inferred without the addition of a single word) , or for things that run counter to the rules, or require a rules rewrite (the given errata).