Just now, JgzMan said:At the time it was written, these were the only three options POSSIBLE. That doesn't mean they are the only types
Yes, they can change it, but until they do, then that means that as of now, these are the only 3 options possible.
2 minutes ago, JgzMan said:Ok, I looked up the exact wording on Leia. The two situations are not comparable, as you describe, and I like the ruling a lot more, now.
Thanks, mate.
At the time it was written, these were the only three options POSSIBLE. That doesn't mean they are the only types
True, but irrelevant to my point. Of course, my point is also irrelevant, as I wasn't remembering Leia properly.
But Leia is relevant to this. If there was nothing preventing double token or double dial. Leia could use her ability on a focus fire command and use an extra token that she saved previously to reroll two dices. But she cannot.
Edited by mintek9171 minute ago, JgzMan said:At the time it was written, these were the only three options POSSIBLE. That doesn't mean they are the only types
They are the only types until there are official Errata, and as rules investigators, we cannot
assume
errata until it is written... We can only interpreted the rules
as
written, not the rules
as they may be
written
1. Ships can spend more than 1 dial. Pursuant "proofs" that.
2. Ships cannot resolve the same command twice.
3. There is not clue what double dial means. That is not covered by the rules as the double token. Until a clarification about that I would say that stacking the same command gives nothing.
Those are my though.
2 minutes ago, mintek917 said:There wont be any, Leia is not allow to make double token effect either.
Actually, the ruling as Draas quoted me doesn't forbid token-token, it just says that Leia doesn't trigger on Dial+Token, so the instance of token-token never comes up.
3 minutes ago, JJs Juggernaut said:we figured people would figure that out without the conditional.
Well, that was terribly optimistic of you.
May I assume that you are an official or unofficial mouthpiece for FFG in some fashion? If so, I'll roll with your answer, given that it's the answer I want anyway.
5 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:1. Ships can spend more than 1 dial. Pursuant "proofs" that.
2. Ships cannot resolve the same command twice.
3. There is not clue what double dial means. That is not covered by the rules as the double token. Until a clarification about that I would say that stacking the same command gives nothing.
Those are my though.
They do indeed give nothing, which is why Thrwan works exactly as you would think he should work as a grand admiral. Its not even in his theme as a character to make command stronger. His ability means that if you think your game well, you can have rounds of two different commands. You can Have navigate and focus fire on the same turn. Squadron and Focus fire on the same turn, etc. Meaning Thwarn is a master strategist, not a master do one thing well, thats actually Leia stick and Leia cost more lol.
Edited by mintek9172 minutes ago, JgzMan said:Actually, the ruling as Draas quoted me doesn't forbid token-token, it just says that Leia doesn't trigger on Dial+Token, so the instance of token-token never comes up.
Well, that was terribly optimistic of you.
May I assume that you are an official or unofficial mouthpiece for FFG in some fashion? If so, I'll roll with your answer, given that it's the answer I want anyway.
As 2016 World Champion I designed Thrawn, so while not being official FFG, I 100% know how this card was intended and tested. FFG could go and FAQ Errata as they have been known to do, but until then, this is how you should play Thrawn.
Edited by JJs Juggernaut2 minutes ago, JgzMan said:Actually, the ruling as Draas quoted me doesn't forbid token-token, it just says that Leia doesn't trigger on Dial+Token, so the instance of token-token never comes up.
Well, that was terribly optimistic of you.
May I assume that you are an official or unofficial mouthpiece for FFG in some fashion? If so, I'll roll with your answer, given that it's the answer I want anyway.
Thrawn is the card he designed for winning world champs.
Ninja Champ too
Edited by Madaghmire6 minutes ago, JJs Juggernaut said:So, we figured some clarification would be needed, but there wasn't space for the condition (cannot resolve the same dial twice) on the card. As Dras has pointed out, currently the rules do NOT support dial+dial, and we figured people would figure that out without the conditional. It also plays into the theme of Thrawn. You have to set these commands at the beginning of the game, and so when setting commands for your ships during the game you need to be thinking what Thrawn command you want to use on what turns to maximize his effect!
So to be 100% clear.
round 3 starts, ship phase, I discard a squadron command from thrawn
I go to activate my Imperial class, it's top dial is a concentrate fire. It gets the squadron dial as well.
Do I only reveal one dial, or do I get both commands?
3 minutes ago, JJs Juggernaut said:As 2016 World Champion I designed Thrawn, so while not being official FFG, I 100% know how this card was intended and tested. FFG could go and FAQ Errata as they have been known to do, but until then, this is how you should play Thrawn.
Dude much love man, i love your idea, im glad you replaced Tarkin for us lol.
4 minutes ago, Reiryc said:Yes, they can change it, but until they do, then that means that as of now, these are the only 3 options possible.
Pardon the pedantry, but you're arguing that they are the only options permissible. At the time of writing, they were the only options possible, because there was no way to have two dials or two tokens of the same type. Now, it's possible to have two dials of the same type. But the question is (was) weather resolving two together is permissible.
6 minutes ago, mintek917 said:But Leia is relevant to this. If there was nothing preventing double token or double dial. Leia could use her ability on a focus fire command and use an extra token that she saved previously to reroll two dices. But she cannot.
Nope. If you use dial+token, Leia doesn't trigger. (according to the ruling I was quoted) There is no opportunity to use two tokens of the same type.
7 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:They are the only types until there are official Errata, and as rules investigators, we cannot assume errata until it is written... We can only interpreted the rules as written, not the rules as they may be written
We shouldn't assume errata, no, but upgrade cards expand on the rules and break the rules regularly. I'm unwilling to expect every card that does something odd have an entry put in the rulebook saying "you can't do that unless a card lets you." Reasonable extrapolation is reasonable.
5 minutes ago, JJs Juggernaut said:As 2016 World Champion I designed Thrawn, so while not being official FFG, I 100% know how this card was intended and tested. FFG could go and FAQ Errata as they have been known to do, but until then, this is how you should play Thrawn.
Good enough for me, mate.
Any further arguing I do on the topic should be considered as principle-based only.
2 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:So to be 100% clear.
round 3 starts, ship phase, I discard a squadron command from thrawn
I go to activate my Imperial class, it's top dial is a concentrate fire. It gets the squadron dial as well.
Do I only reveal one dial, or do I get both commands?
You get the squadron dial before , then you reveal your first dial. Thats why it says you get it before activating your ship.
Just now, JgzMan said:Pardon the pedantry, but you're arguing that they are the only options permissible. At the time of writing, they were the only options possible, because there was no way to have two dials or two tokens of the same type. Now, it's possible to have two dials of the same type. But the question is (was) weather resolving two together is permissible.
I do understand what you're saying... My view however, is that until something is errata'ed, then it's both what's possible and what's permissible.
Just because we can see how it would work (2 dials of same command spent together), nothing allows for that regardless of what was possible before. See what I'm saying?
Another interesting question - is it correct that the dial that a ship gains from Thrawn cannot be converted to token (as it is not a ship command dial that is revealed)?
1 minute ago, Drasnighta said:
Seconded. Awesome job on the Grand Admiral. I now know what my next 501st costume will be....
Just now, PT106 said:Another interesting question - is it correct that the dial that a ship gains from Thrawn cannot be converted to token (as it is not a ship command dial that is revealed)?
It says the ship gets assigned a command dial of the same type Thrawn had...so I don't see why it couldn't be converted to a token
Just now, Reiryc said:Just because we can see how it would work (2 dials of same command spent together), nothing allows for that regardless of what was possible before. See what I'm saying?
I see what you're saying, yes. I just disagree with the conclusion drawn. I prefer to read the rules permissively, unless I can get a good reason not to do so. In general, I will accept the following as "good reasons:"
In general I won't accept, "the rules don't say we can" without some kind of support.
But your way of thinking isn't necessarily wrong. (in this case, it was right) It's just not mine.
Just now, Darth Lupine said:It says the ship gets assigned a command dial of the same type Thrawn had...so I don't see why it couldn't be converted to a token
11 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:So to be 100% clear.
round 3 starts, ship phase, I discard a squadron command from thrawn
I go to activate my Imperial class, it's top dial is a concentrate fire. It gets the squadron dial as well.
Do I only reveal one dial, or do I get both commands?
You get both commands, however, only your ship command is actually "revealed". the Thrawn command is "gained"
4 minutes ago, PT106 said:Another interesting question - is it correct that the dial that a ship gains from Thrawn cannot be converted to token (as it is not a ship command dial that is revealed)?
But its just means you are using a Tarkin for 3 rounds.
Edited by mintek917Just now, JgzMan said:I see what you're saying, yes. I just disagree with the conclusion drawn. I prefer to read the rules permissively, unless I can get a good reason not to do so. In general, I will accept the following as "good reasons:"
- A similar model from another card/situation
- Breaking the game in a MAJOR way. "OP as ****" isn't enough
- Just bloody stupid. (see the "stacking" debate)
In general I won't accept, "the rules don't say we can" without some kind of support.
But your way of thinking isn't necessarily wrong. (in this case, it was right) It's just not mine.
I do understand what you're saying.
I believe PT is correct. The Thrawn command, cannon be converted into a token (as it is not revealed, rather "gained"), but the regular command could be tokenized if they were the same, so in essence, it's very similar.
1 minute ago, JJs Juggernaut said:You get both commands, however, only your ship command is actually "revealed". the Thrawn command is "gained"
Ah, so we could token the revealed ship command, but the Thrawn command stays a dial. Interesting