My prediction:

Shadowlands. Goblin.

Covert.

Lose 2/3 honor when this character enters play. (not 100% sure on value though I'd lean toward 2)

Just remember that this guy is already a 1/- peep that costs 2 fate. If he also makes you lose one honor on top of that, he needs a really kickass ability or he will be total trash.

You lose at 0 and not -20. Even a single point of honor is a lot.

9 hours ago, Wintersong said:

May I ask which theme is that? Tainted Crab Berserkers?

Shadownlands taint, Jigoku's influence, was a road to damnation. I think it was in Bearers of Jade where it was stated that it was so bad as to mark the person's soul forever, following through reincarnations. While it's true that having the taint isn't the same as willingly serving Jigoku in some cases, I see no problem with the alliegance part. Either there is a faction that uses them as in clan characters (aka any shadowlands characters in this deck are working for Jigoku) or they are individuals that are tainted and still serving their clan... with maybe good intentions... maybe until they lose control a la Ikoma Ryozo.

But...

nothing prevents a non tainted individual to serve Jigoku, I guess?

Interesting. That was retconned later. From 2nd ed's Fortunes and Winds :

Quote

Souls who travel to Meido in the normal fashion (i.e. by dying) find themselves without a trace of any other realm's influence that may have touched them in life. Those mortals who succumbed to the Shadowlands Taint go immediately to Jigoku to suffer an eternity of torment or servitude, or perhaps a place of power within that realm. Those who were never Lost to the Shadowlands Taint shed all traces of it upon death, and await judgment in Meido like every other soul.

This helps explain the berserkers' mindset, I think. They want to die soon, while their souls are still redeemable.

Anyway, there were plenty of characters in the old lore who were tainted, but refused to align with Jigoku. Isawa Tadaka , Katsu (for a while, anyway), and Omen , for example. Arguably, Iuchiban as well.

So I have visited the article again and this time paid attantion to the card fan. That Goblin has a "Go" in the trait area. And by its position, it may have only a couple of traits, "Go"(blin) included.

Could just be goblin - nonhuman and nothing else.

I'm not positive but I think I remember that non human races were present in Rokugan before the Kami fell to earth and the Festering Pit was created, a leading the Shadowlands taint. The nonhuman races (with the exception of the Naga and Ratlings) we're just more succeptable to the corruption.

I could be remembering that wrong because I think that was just discussion from one of the designers way back and not released in any official capacity.

It's possible that becoming Shadowlands will be part of the cost of the ability. Maybe similar to what we see in Banzai

Something like this:

Goblin Sneak

2 fate

1 mil

- pol

Goblin - Nonhuman

Covert

Action: Goblin Sneak gains +2 mil and the Shadowlands trait. Lose 2 honor.

To me that would almost be more flavorful to not have a bunch of cards that are only Shadowlands or not. A non Shadowlands card with an ability that is strong but comes at the price of becoming Shadowlands represents them losing their battle with temptation and exchanging power for service to Jikogu.

Now that I think about it, I would probably prefer that. Of course there would be characters that have already turned to the dark side and have the printed Shadowlands trait, but some being printed as a representation of someone with a choice makes for great flavor and a neat way to check progress of they do experienced versions of cards.

6 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Could just be goblin - nonhuman and nothing else.

I'm not positive but I think I remember that non human races were present in Rokugan before the Kami fell to earth and the Festering Pit was created, a leading the Shadowlands taint. The nonhuman races (with the exception of the Naga and Ratlings) we're just more succeptable to the corruption.

I could be remembering that wrong because I think that was just discussion from one of the designers way back and not released in any official capacity.

It's possible that becoming Shadowlands will be part of the cost of the ability. Maybe similar to what we see in Banzai

Something like this:

Goblin Sneak

2 fate

1 mil

- pol

Goblin - Nonhuman

Covert

Action: Goblin Sneak gains +2 mil and the Shadowlands trait. Lose 2 honor.

To me that would almost be more flavorful to not have a bunch of cards that are only Shadowlands or not. A non Shadowlands card with an ability that is strong but comes at the price of becoming Shadowlands represents them losing their battle with temptation and exchanging power for service to Jikogu.

Now that I think about it, I would probably prefer that. Of course there would be characters that have already turned to the dark side and have the printed Shadowlands trait, but some being printed as a representation of someone with a choice makes for great flavor and a neat way to check progress of they do experienced versions of cards.

I'd rather see him have a pump or some sort of bonus/ability if you are more dishonorable than your opponent rather than straight honor loss. It ties more into that idea of using this type of sneaky sneak without the penalty of losing honor since your clan is already resorting to nasty means. I would even take a discard a card from your opponent's hand as a little reaction ability when he hits play or attacks alone.

1 hour ago, Kubernes said:

I'd rather see him have a pump or some sort of bonus/ability if you are more dishonorable than your opponent rather than straight honor loss. It ties more into that idea of using this type of sneaky sneak without the penalty of losing honor since your clan is already resorting to nasty means. I would even take a discard a card from your opponent's hand as a little reaction ability when he hits play or attacks alone.

That works two I just wanted a quick obvious example. I just like the concept of not all characters having the printed Shadowlands trait and instead have an ability that gives them the Shadowlands trait to represent their succumbing to the taint.

1 hour ago, Ishi Tonu said:

That works two I just wanted a quick obvious example. I just like the concept of not all characters having the printed Shadowlands trait and instead have an ability that gives them the Shadowlands trait to represent their succumbing to the taint.

It might be easier to have some sort of condition, like honored or dishonored, to represent taint. You can do all sorts of stuff based on that. Perhaps the basic effect of taint would bereducing glory to 0.

2 minutes ago, Kubernes said:

It might be easier to have some sort of condition, like honored or dishonored, to represent taint. You can do all sorts of stuff based on that. Perhaps the basic effect of taint would bereducing glory to 0.

idk about reducing glory to zero, that might be too advantageous. Shadowlands could simply dishonor your own characters, like several scorpion abilities do, to pay for the effects.

10 minutes ago, shosuko said:

idk about reducing glory to zero, that might be too advantageous. Shadowlands could simply dishonor your own characters, like several scorpion abilities do, to pay for the effects.

The glory thing could be advantageous, but no more than honoring or dishonoring someone.

As for just having everything shadowlands just do genetic dishonoring, it feels rather bland and retreads the same ground from the old game. I'd rather see multiple ways around that like having the character be more expensive or weaker if you're more honorable and so on.

Taint seems like it can be passed along rather easily now too. Some game mechanics for the faction about spreading that "love" would be flavorful. Taint for everyone!

2 minutes ago, Kubernes said:

The glory thing could be advantageous, but no more than honoring or dishonoring someone.

As for just having everything shadowlands just do genetic dishonoring, it feels rather bland and retreads the same ground from the old game. I'd rather see multiple ways around that like having the character be more expensive or weaker if you're more honorable and so on.

Taint seems like it can be passed along rather easily now too. Some game mechanics for the faction about spreading that "love" would be flavorful. Taint for everyone!

Reducing Glory to zero would do more than honoring or dishonoring. It would be the best defense versus dishonor. Not good, or thematic.

9 hours ago, shosuko said:

Reducing Glory to zero would do more than honoring or dishonoring. It would be the best defense versus dishonor. Not good, or thematic.

Why? Honoring a dishonored character is also the best defense against a dishonored character. The same is when you dishonor an honored character. The only difference might be when determining the Imperial Favor and that only really matters if the character in question is ready. It's similar, but different.

52 minutes ago, Kubernes said:

Why? Honoring a dishonored character is also the best defense against a dishonored character. The same is when you dishonor an honored character. The only difference might be when determining the Imperial Favor and that only really matters if the character in question is ready. It's similar, but different.

There is a finality in dropping a character's glory to zero that honoring and dishonoring do not have. If I use Way of the Scorpion to dishonor my opponent's Hotaru she is down to a 0/3. If my opponent plays Way of the Crane to bring her back up to neutral we have truly neutralized our effects. I could play another Way of the Scorpion and bring her back down if i have the card to play, and we could go back and forth.

If I dishonored Hotaru and that player was able to simply drop her Glory to 0... well then I can't do anything. The entire interaction is removed.

Aggresive Moto doesn't care about dishonor because he has glory 0. Shiba Tsukune on the other hand, cares quite a lot with her glory 4.

Also, from a rpgish point of view, how would a goblin manage the Empire to recognize him some glory? Or an Oni*?

* Lion shugenjas summoning Onis that later have more honor that some Crab doesn't count

3 hours ago, shosuko said:

There is a finality in dropping a character's glory to zero that honoring and dishonoring do not have. If I use Way of the Scorpion to dishonor my opponent's Hotaru she is down to a 0/3. If my opponent plays Way of the Crane to bring her back up to neutral we have truly neutralized our effects. I could play another Way of the Scorpion and bring her back down if i have the card to play, and we could go back and forth.

If I dishonored Hotaru and that player was able to simply drop her Glory to 0... well then I can't do anything. The entire interaction is removed.

That's a very specific situation with rather specific cards. There's the other side that tainting a 0 glory guy does nothing on its own. There's also the whole honor gain and/or loss from honoring/dishonoring. You can numerous perfect or disastrous situations with many other cards in the game like tainting a dishonored high glory character. If anything, taint would force different interactions from the opponent that usual.

With "finality", you can associate that with many other cards like the various removal cards or other effects that do something similar and don't allow much or no interaction from the opponent.

16 minutes ago, Kubernes said:

That's a very specific situation with rather specific cards. There's the other side that tainting a 0 glory guy does nothing on its own. There's also the whole honor gain and/or loss from honoring/dishonoring. You can numerous perfect or disastrous situations with many other cards in the game.

With "finality", you can associate that with many other cards like the various removal cards or other effects that do something similar and don't allow much or no interaction from the opponent.

I don't think the finality of the situation is similar to item removal. When an item enters play, or is removed from play that is what we would consider a natural mechanic. Playing a card to remove a card balances out.

Meanwhile - setting Glory to 0 allows characters that are designed with the honor / dishonor system in their balancing to ignore it. This isn't just a fringe case either. If my opponent drops Hotaru, I may declare my first conflict for Ring of Fire to dishonor her. If my opponent just drops her Glory to zero then the honor / dishonor interaction is broken.

The entire point of honor / dishonor is that it is a double edged sword. Kisada has 0 glory, and it is a greater advantage in defense than it is a hindrance because he doesn't need to worry about being dishonored, and his deck doesn't provide many honoring options to counter-play. This is part of Crab's balancing.

This is where the thematics break down as well as the mechanics - Having the taint set a character's glory to 0 would actually be a good defense against dishonor. All of those 2/2/2 characters would be 2/2/0 and you could dishonor them with impunity for Spies at Court, and other mechanics.

4 hours ago, shosuko said:

I don't think the finality of the situation is similar to item removal. When an item enters play, or is removed from play that is what we would consider a natural mechanic. Playing a card to remove a card balances out.

Meanwhile - setting Glory to 0 allows characters that are designed with the honor / dishonor system in their balancing to ignore it. This isn't just a fringe case either. If my opponent drops Hotaru, I may declare my first conflict for Ring of Fire to dishonor her. If my opponent just drops her Glory to zero then the honor / dishonor interaction is broken.

The entire point of honor / dishonor is that it is a double edged sword. Kisada has 0 glory, and it is a greater advantage in defense than it is a hindrance because he doesn't need to worry about being dishonored, and his deck doesn't provide many honoring options to counter-play. This is part of Crab's balancing.

This is where the thematics break down as well as the mechanics - Having the taint set a character's glory to 0 would actually be a good defense against dishonor. All of those 2/2/2 characters would be 2/2/0 and you could dishonor them with impunity for Spies at Court, and other mechanics.

I meant character removal but item removal could be similar. However, that is taking the idea that taint is a "finality" trait, and I don't agree with that idea.

You're also forgetting that setting a glory stat to 0 on a character with the honored or dishonored status doesn't effect the condition's status. So, for a clan like Crane, Lion, or Scorpion, the condition is still there for effects like honor gain/loss. An honored champion can still use something like Voice of Honor, etc or give more resources towards the honor win condition or cards. The thing about dishonor is that it's still honor loss and could still make the opponent loss the game or reduce their resources. Using the honored status just negates that effect.

This isn't something to gloss over and why I don't think it's a "finality" effect: the current status conditions still have actual value, even with 0 glory. Dishonoring Kisada or Honoring Political Rival can still mean something for the game. Just take a moment to look at cards like I Can Swim, Voice of Honor, or Asahina Storyteller.

If you played the old game, most shadowlands cards had 0 personal honor so a dishonor deck would still be at a disadvantage if that trend continues in the lcg. This also includes if you want to use the Fire Ring to dishonor a shadowlands baddie. Suddenly, FFG broke the game by following the setting!

The point of taint is just as a possible alternative to straight honor loss, which is a disincentive in the current game. It can also get around some of the problems in the old game like constantly labeling Shadowlands/Spider strongholds with the "you can't lose honor from cards".

51 minutes ago, Kubernes said:

I meant character removal but item removal could be similar. However, that is taking the idea that taint is a "finality" trait, and I don't agree with that idea.

You're also forgetting that setting a glory stat to 0 on a character with the honored or dishonored status doesn't effect the condition's status. So, for a clan like Crane, Lion, or Scorpion, the condition is still there for effects like honor gain/loss. An honored champion can still use something like Voice of Honor, etc or give more resources towards the honor win condition or cards. The thing about dishonor is that it's still honor loss and could still make the opponent loss the game or reduce their resources. Using the honored status just negates that effect.

This isn't something to gloss over and why I don't think it's a "finality" effect: the current status conditions still have actual value, even with 0 glory. Dishonoring Kisada or Honoring Political Rival can still mean something for the game. Just take a moment to look at cards like I Can Swim, Voice of Honor, or Asahina Storyteller.

If you played the old game, most shadowlands cards had 0 personal honor so a dishonor deck would still be at a disadvantage if that trend continues in the lcg. This also includes if you want to use the Fire Ring to dishonor a shadowlands baddie. Suddenly, FFG broke the game by following the setting!

The point of taint is just as a possible alternative to straight honor loss, which is a disincentive in the current game. It can also get around some of the problems in the old game like constantly labeling Shadowlands/Spider strongholds with the "you can't lose honor from cards".

There is no reason Shadowlands cards couldn't just have 0 glory, but to have the effect of gaining taint be to set glory to 0 is not thematic, or mechanically sound. Thematically you are defending an attack on your honor with being tainted. Mechanically you are taking a system in place that the game uses as a double edged sword, and removing the edge from both sides. The primary function of honor, and the primary penalty to dishonor, is in the glory stat. Honored and dishonored status are their own fight, they don't need taint becoming an odd-ball bomb to the system taking glory out of the equation where it belongs.