There are some game mechanic problems with the smaller bases. Better to dodge behind a barricade and it is possible to get more units into a melee with one enemy figure. That's why I don't see an official solution.

8 hours ago, VanorDM said:

You really don't get the point Tyler is making.

The point isn't that someone can use Lando a year or more before he's released for legion. The point was that any model that could be used as a proxy for an existing Legion model, so only those units in wave 1 could be used.

Actually, I was asking for clarity on what he was asking, which is why I addressed both theoretical versions I could imagine. This thread's title is asking for clarity on what people want from IA compatibility, and as nobody has answered up until I posted (at least that I could see), I thought it would be best to ensure we all weren't assuming we meant different things. If what you say about just enabling proxies is true, I mentioned that as well, and a whole product released just to allow proxy/alt art cards seems like a sledgehammer to crack a walnut. You want to use Big as a heavy trooper? Kayn Somos as a Stormtrooper leader? Great! I think that would be cool, it's always nice to have some variety on the table. Plus Biv is a dude. Will they look weird next to Legion figs? I don't know, possibly, but until I see them in the flesh, I can't comment on that.

At home, and in your FLGS, I can't imagine anyone needing official blessing to use Gideon as a unit commander. I've seen weirder things proxied in for different games in the past, and as long as everyone's clear what things represent (and Biv being a heavy trooper is pretty clear), there's no harm. Will FFG officially allow this in higher level tournaments? I seriously doubt it. I'm not saying they're right to do so, I just think we need to be realistic in that they will want people to buy the new figures, and will want the presentation of the hobby to anyone new to be with the highest quality figures.

6 hours ago, TylerTT said:

@General Zodd

If FFG included characters or units that were not yet released in legion they could easily say those cards and proxies are not tournament legal untill the equivalent legion product is released.

Scale wise

Stylistically IA figures are closer to true scale models, legion figures have the slightly larger face and hands and greater depth of detail typical to gaming miniatures.

After measuring my IA miniatures most of them are in scale with legion's reported measurements. as there has been a slight scale creep in IA.

Anything meant for table top gaming should be ok for legion.

They could do, but that would still mean that new Legion players would be excluded from playing and experiencing the full scope of the available game unless they dropped a load of money on a different game and its many expansions. Plus, the up front design time needed to retrofit a load of IA figs into Legion rules would be huge. I'd rather they spent that time getting Wave 1 right, and then getting onto Wave 2 pronto, rather than slowing down the design process to fit in 3 years worth of IA releases.

I totally get your frustration, wanting to use all the painted figures you've already collected for IA (believe me, I have the full collection, and I'm up to date with painting them) but I just don't see a good compromise for FFG to achieve this, without putting a load of effort into a product which, almost by definition, isn't going to generate any further sales for them, and which would slow down production of the main line of releases.

8 minutes ago, General Zodd said:

You want to use Biv as a heavy trooper? ... Plus Biv is a dude. Will they look weird next to Legion figs? I don't know, possibly, but until I see them in the flesh, I can't comment on that.

Biv is one of the bigger IA models:

Could it be that compatibility between IA and Legion miniatures is similar to compatibility between IA and Legion players? Doesn't quite fit.

Is there a picture in the net where you can see a IA-Stormtropper with a Legion-Stormtrooper?

57 minutes ago, Chrisael said:

Is there a picture in the net where you can see a IA-Stormtropper with a Legion-Stormtrooper?

Thanks!
The difference is to big for me! : /
Is sad! Maybe I end IA an wait for Legion!

It's not quite as bad as it looms as the difference in pose matters quite a lot, but it is definitely noticeable.

9 hours ago, TylerTT said:

I don't think it's a slap in the face or that I'm entitled to anything. This is just a prerequisite to me buying any legion products.

Sorry for insinuating that you thought it a slap in the face. I was thinking of others who had stated their case less rationally.

I actually applaud you for fostering a polite and considered discussion of the topic.

6 hours ago, Manchu said:

@VanorDM

There are two routes. One, produce cards for existing IA models. @General Zodd accurately explains why this is unworkable.

I don't believe it is. I'm not saying it's a good idea or that FFG should do it. But it's also not as big of an issue as some people are making it out to be.

6 hours ago, Manchu said:

What would you use to proxy a HH-12 stormie?

That's the whole point... You wouldn't. The only thing you'd be able to do is use like models that already exist. Or are very close to being like models. Like Biv being used as a heavy weapon trooper.

6 hours ago, Manchu said:

but it's probably (indeed, most likely) not in FFG's interests to encourage people to play Legion with anything but Legion components, including Legion miniatures. It's not just about sales volume, either. There are brand considerations (IA models are not as nice).

Very true, and that's a reason why FFG my not be inclined to do this.

6 hours ago, Manchu said:

Moreover, asking FFG to divorce one category of components (miniatures) from another (the cards corresponding to those miniatures) is beyond the pale becuase it cuts against their entire business model.

I think this could be a fairly large boost for their bottom line. What they're really doing is getting people to pay to proxy their models in Legion. Something that as myself and others have pointed out they can do anyway. Considering what we know now, the most someone would be able to avoid buying would be 1 stormtrooper squad. Even if they released future expansions it would likely let someone avoid buying one or two expansion packs. So if the conversion kit costs say $30 or so, FFG gets $30 of almost pure profit... Cardboard is cheap and the dev work is already done for Legion, plus they've already gotten money for those IA models. For the sake of skipping over on $40 or 50 worth of Legion models.

Then again the AT-ST may be an issue depending on much that model costs...

6 hours ago, Manchu said:

How many people who have enough IA models to be able to proxy a Legion army and want to play Legion do not want to just, you know, buy Legion?

No one would have enough IA models to play Legion. There would be no conversion for things like Speeder Bikes, the heavy stormtroopers, the rebel troopers, Luke, the AT-RT, ect... I mean given what we know of so far, Vader and Stormtrooper and maybe AT-ST's.

6 hours ago, Manchu said:

It's such an unreasonable, demanding position, especially considering it is also probably a corner case anyhow.

I don't think it's that unreasonable... It's not like Tyler is saying that FFG should make something that converts all IA models into Legion on day 1, but rather that he be able to use Proxy models in official events, and well pay for that privilege.

Again, not saying this is a good idea or that FFG should do it... But I do think a few people here don't understand the suggestion.

1 hour ago, VanorDM said:

Again, not saying this is a good idea or that FFG should do it... But I do think a few people here don't understand the suggestion.

I think I understand it, I just don't think the benefit of the outlay FFG would have to make would be worth the costs.

6 minutes ago, ryanabt said:

I think I understand it, I just don't think the benefit of the outlay FFG would have to make would be worth the costs.

It would actually cost FFG very little, the cost of printing the cardboard, packaging and such. In terms of lost sales, that is where the real cost could come in... But I don't think you'd see that many lost sales since so many of the IA models are small groups a single model to maybe 3 or so. So it's not like you could build a full 800 points of Legion out of an IA collection. At best you could make a squad, maybe two...

I'm not going to say this is a good or bad idea, just trying to make sure that what Tyler was actually suggesting is understood. Because people were against the idea for reasons that didn't actually apply.

14 minutes ago, VanorDM said:

It would actually cost FFG very little, the cost of printing the cardboard, packaging and such. In terms of lost sales, that is where the real cost could come in... But I don't think you'd see that many lost sales since so many of the IA models are small groups a single model to maybe 3 or so. So it's not like you could build a full 800 points of Legion out of an IA collection. At best you could make a squad, maybe two...

I'm not going to say this is a good or bad idea, just trying to make sure that what Tyler was actually suggesting is understood. Because people were against the idea for reasons that didn't actually apply.

Right. If you read my earlier post, I state why I think conversion kits would be difficult to get right and what the risk is. Additionally. If they do IA to Legion kits, should we also say Legion to IA are necessary? That would add to the cost and, again, possibly decrease sales of FFG items.

That photo up there is intresting.

15 minutes ago, TylerTT said:

That photo up there is intresting.

Doesn't bode well for compatibility.

Just curious. If both games came out at the same time, which would you choose?

If I had to choose at all that is. And it's FFG who is causing players to make this choice. "One, none, or both" if presented with both ranges at the same time I would likely choose none as I would wait to see what format won out.

I but gameplay wise I would chose IA especially with the app as that solves the "one player vs many" problem my group experiences. And I already have enough two player games. AI has a better excuse to produce all sorts of cool models from across the franchise. So it will ultemetly be the collection I prefer.

I have a great resistance to collecting a slightly larger scale because I use miniatures collections across all my games. My IA collection could be used for sci-fI RPGs and just simply as a collection of cool models from Star Wars.

FFG splitting it's scales feels like they are weakening the potential of both ranges. I highly doubt we will see IA scale speeder bikes now or other military models. And legion undoubtedly is a much smaller scope So those collections have even less value for other uses.

I think FFG underestimated how picky collectors like me are about this sort of stuff.

Star Wars is just one of many interests if they expect me to collect both 30ish mm miniatures lines over collecting just one they will be disappointed.

@VanorDM

Let's go with your idea that the goal of the conversion kit is to make it ok to proxy IA figs in official Legion play.

Before going any further, we have to consider what WYSIWYG means. In most miniatures games, it means that the unit is modeled with the options its using. FFG mini games use a slightly different definition. Some options do need to be modeled. For example, if a stormie squad takes the HH-12 trooper upgrade then the unit on the table must include the HH-12 trooper sculpt. Other options, however, don't need to be modeled; they are "WYSIWYG" in terms of having a copy of the upgrade card. For example, taking the Targeting Scopes upgrade doesn't require that a player modify his models. He just has that card next to his squad card.

OK so any upgrade cards that do not require a special model can be included in the conversion kit. But what about upgrade cards for which a model is required, like a DST-19 trooper or HH-12 trooper. Now there is an IA fig of a DST-19 trooper. So does the DST-19 card go in the conversion kit? This is actually tricky because just owning IA (i.e., the IA core box) doesn't mean you have the IA sculpt for the DST-19 trooper. Is this conversion kit designed to assume the target customer owns any IA products? certain IA products? all IA products?

For this reason, making any kind of conversion for the Rebel side of Legion is tricky. The IA core game comes with no Rebel troopers at all. While the IA core box contains enough stormies to make a couple of squads sans heavy weapons, the Rebel Troopers Ally pack doesn't contain enough figs to proxy even a single squad. So does the conversion kit assume the target customer has bought at least two Rebel Troopers Ally packs? If not, does the conversion kit simply not come with any rebel squad cards? Seems hard to call it a conversion kit.

Thus the idea of a conversion kit made up of existing Legion components is unworkable. So we turn to the idea of FFG spending money to develop new, additional components, specificallly referencing IA. The main example ITT has been an upgrade card with Biv's name and picture ... that does what exactly? Showing stats for the MPL-57 or Z-9? But Biv is self-evidently carrying neither weapon, contravening WYSIWYG. Moreover, what would any of the Rebel figs in the IA core set "counts as" for the purposes of Legion, without contravening WYSIWYG? And of course, we have the same problem as before. Biv is not in the core set. Why does the conversion kit assume the target customer has Twin Shadows? And since, as you say, the customer who does not have Twin Shadows doesn't want to buy a kit assuming he does own it, there is the problem of the kit being a closed end product with a reductive customer base.

The trouble with this idea of "official proxying" is that it's a contradiction. The concept of proxying a model is inherently non-official. It means using a non-official model to stand for an official concept. It makes perfect sense in the context of friendly games. In competitive contexts, where concepts like WYSIWYG are important, proxying just doesn't make sense.