1 hour ago, Mirith said:

I thought the Dragon kept them too. Less enslaved, just as servants.

I think every clan had their nonhuman

44 minutes ago, shineyorkboy said:

We made them an offer they couldn't refuse.

I like seeing native attachment hate out of Crab. Makes me less concerned about not splashing Dragon. Hoping we also get a new character. Crab really needs to build up its supply of courtiers.

They really do - right now it is nearly impossible for Crab to splash Scorpion and utilize Forged Edict. I feel this is a tragedy and that Crab should receive 2 more Courtier Yasuki to make this pincer-bro's deck work!

55 minutes ago, shineyorkboy said:

We made them an offer they couldn't refuse.

I like seeing native attachment hate out of Crab. Makes me less concerned about not splashing Dragon. Hoping we also get a new character. Crab really needs to build up its supply of courtiers.

Honestly, I would be very surprised if you don't. Judging by the card numbering so far, I suspect #3 in this pack is going to be a Crab Dynasty character, it makes the most sense out of all the options (assuming dynasty pack numbering follows established patterns from the core set).

10 hours ago, blackheartz said:

Whoa Isawa Kaede looks so cool!!! But I am happy with all the cards revealed here.

Specifically for Crane and Phoenix, which are my clans , I love that Crane got a great defensive tool that works with Honor strategies. Lets hope that the trend continues (and that we do not end up with a Seeker role down the line :P). Very important that it adds to province strength, keeping it unbroken most likely.

And Phoenix got an almost champion level shugenja!! We will have to see though if the meta will allow for the inclusion of multiple expensive personalities in a deck.

So with Seeker of Knowledge and Isawa Kaede you can get up to three ring effects in a single conflict right (Air, Void, the original and all activate)?

Does anyone know if how many cards per clan we will get? Two and six neutral seems like the obvious choice.

Crane and Phoenix, the oldest Old5R alliance... Good to see it being supported by players.

Disdainful Remark (The Crane Event) is the card I like the most from the reveals so far. It is effective, and will be used. It is a defensive card, yes, but I think it's true advantage will be gained my offensive decks. Less defense is required with the use of this card, which leaves more available to use for attack. Very good card.

Isawa Kaede: Speed of the game withstanding, I think she's either too expensive, or doesn't have strong enough stats. Her ability is strong. I would say stronger than most of the 4 Fate cost characters in the game. But it's not stronger than Champion level abilities. Nor are her stats on par with other champions. Yet, they all cost the same.

I think she needed a stats boost to at least 4/4 or 3/5. 4/5 preferred. That said, she may eventually supplant Tsukune in pure Shugenja decks as the card pool expands.

17 minutes ago, Anemura said:

Crane and Phoenix, the oldest Old5R alliance... Good to see it being supported by players.

Disdainful Remark (The Crane Event) is the card I like the most from the reveals so far. It is effective, and will be used. It is a defensive card, yes, but I think it's true advantage will be gained my offensive decks. Less defense is required with the use of this card, which leaves more available to use for attack. Very good card.

Isawa Kaede: Speed of the game withstanding, I think she's either too expensive, or doesn't have strong enough stats. Her ability is strong. I would say stronger than most of the 4 Fate cost characters in the game. But it's not stronger than Champion level abilities. Nor are her stats on par with other champions. Yet, they all cost the same.

I think she needed a stats boost to at least 4/4 or 3/5. 4/5 preferred. That said, she may eventually supplant Tsukune in pure Shugenja decks as the card pool expands.

With 3/5 Isawa Kaede would probably be better than most/all the clan champions. Being able to use her ability twice with "Against the Waves", triggering 3 rings with "Seeker of Knowledge" is pretty nutty and makes challenge denial cards like Pacifism so much more valuable. Being immune to the fire and void ring and being able to be protected by Yojimbo rounds out a pretty efficient combo/control card.

1 hour ago, Ignithas said:

With 3/5 Isawa Kaede would probably be better than most/all the clan champions. Being able to use her ability twice with "Against the Waves", triggering 3 rings with "Seeker of Knowledge" is pretty nutty and makes challenge denial cards like Pacifism so much more valuable. Being immune to the fire and void ring and being able to be protected by Yojimbo rounds out a pretty efficient combo /control card.

The crux of the argument lies in the use of her abilities. She gets to use her ability when she wins. In order to win, she has to provide a battle efficiency per fate cost. Currently, she does not provide that efficiency. She has one of the lower skills to Fate cost ratios among characters in the game (1.4)... and that's what she is when going into the first battle. Even Asako Diplomat, who also has a win-based ability, has a better stats to Fate ratio (1.5). Aside from Tsukune, all Champions are at least at 1.8 S/F themselves.

Also, "combos" by their very nature are inefficient when compared to non-combo reliant cards. These cards require things to sync up. More self-reliant cards tend to look better by comparison.

Lastly, I'm not sure why an extra point of Political Skill is the difference between being better than "most/all" of the Champions, please elaborate? Do you think she's on par right now?

1 hour ago, Anemura said:

The crux of the argument lies in the use of her abilities. She gets to use her ability when she wins. In order to win, she has to provide a battle efficiency per fate cost. Currently, she does not provide that efficiency. She has one of the lower skills to Fate cost ratios among characters in the game (1.4)... and that's what she is going into the first battle. Even Asako Diplomat, who is designed in much the same way, has a better stats to Fate ratio (1.5). Aside from Tsukune, all Champions are at least at 1.8 S/F themselves.

Also, "efficient combo card" loses out to "efficient card". One requires moving parts to sync up, the other just requires the card. That's the edge the Champions have over her. They are better equipped to impact the first battle outright.

Speaking about the comparison to Champions, I'm not sure why an extra point of Political Skill is the difference between being better than "most/all" of them. Please elaborate? Do you think she's on par right now?

I think the closest card to compare her is Hotaru (which is a mediocre clan champion). You basically pay 2 pol and a more narrow ability for immunity, a stronger ability and a lot of synergy (hence why I said combo card). I think that this is a fair tradeoff, given how Phoenix works. Giving her a stat that rivals Yokuni would be (imo) too powerful with the challenge denial tools Phoenix has at its proposal.

Straight up efficient>Combo efficient only works if either the strengh ceiling is similar, the floor is deeper or it is unlikely to work properly, which I don't think is the case with Kaede. The ceiling of Kaede is much higher with "Against the Waves" and/or "Seeker of Knowledge", the floor is deeper than with Tsukune, but with the shugenja trait and the immunity the card will most of the time work.

56 minutes ago, Ignithas said:

I think the closest card to compare her is Hotaru (which is a mediocre clan champion). You basically pay 2 pol and a more narrow ability for immunity, a stronger ability and a lot of synergy (hence why I said combo card). I think that this is a fair tradeoff, given how Phoenix works. Giving her a stat that rivals Yokuni would be (imo) too powerful with the challenge denial tools Phoenix has at its proposal.

Straight up efficient>Combo efficient only works if either the strengh ceiling is similar, the floor is deeper or it is unlikely to work properly, which I don't think is the case with Kaede. The ceiling of Kaede is much higher with "Against the Waves" and/or "Seeker of Knowledge", the floor is deeper than with Tsukune, but with the shugenja trait and the immunity the card will most of the time work.

Straight efficiency vs Combo efficiency is a matter of likelihood. The former is often favoured for the frequency of execution. It's a common refrain for card games.

You compared her to Hotaru, so let's explore that:

1) I do not consider Hotaru's ability to be weaker than Kaede's own. First, Hotaru gets to use it on defense. They both resolve two ring effects on attack. Now, there is a very legitimate argument that resolving 2 effects from the same ring can be as powerful, or more powerful, than resolving a ring effect X + the ring of void. It's a matter of board state. Given that premise, I give the edge to Hotaru. What she loses to Kaede in versatility, she makes up for in focus and probability (can use it on defense + might hit the more needed effect twice).

2) Both have "win more" abilities. Only, Hotaru is better able to "win" at all given her extra 2 Political Skill. That is significant when 2 stat points can be argued to be equal to 1 Fate (Seppun Gaurdsman/Otomo Courtier/Various Weapons).

3) So we are left with Kaede's immunity to make up the difference. IMO, I would take the 2 Political skill bump and the ability to use the ability on defense over the immunity every time.

"Synergy" is a matter of perception. Yes, Against the Waves allows Kaede to attack again. By contrast, the Crane have an easier time honouring their Champion than perhaps any other clan. Each clan provides a certain synergy with their respective characters. We could argue it either way, but I think the more logical assessment is to follow the rationale you have posited with Hotaru. And in that regard, I view Kaede to be clearly inferior.

It's rather pointless to compare Kaede and Hotaru. They are in different clans, have access to different cards, they don't compete with either in deck slots, and perform different functions.

If people want to compare her to someone then I suggest comparing her to Tsukune instead.

I would recommend holding off on Kaede until we see more Shugenja cards. As people have said - some cards are more straight forward than others. Kaede is a Shugenja which opens up some options. Its kinda sad to see her stats be lower, but she isn't a Champion, or even the Master of Void. I wouldn't expect Kachiko to have stats that rivaled Shoju's, and I would certainly hate to see Yakamo rival Kisada... The Champions are all pretty much stat monsters, and I don't think we'll see any card from their clan be able to eclipse them in stats. What we will see are different abilities which allow you to design differently.

Tsukune can be dishonored by a Ring of Fire which turns her into a 0/0. Hotaru and Toturi are both also susceptible to a big hit from the dishonor fairy. Kaede is no exception to being prone to dishonor, but she'll only really have to worry about it against Scorpion. You can't just grab the Ring of Fire and torch her. If you find people going for Ring of Fire to disarm your Phoenix glory hounds then building with Kaede is a reasonable choice defensively.

She is obviously a character who excels in combo and this is something else to consider. Some players like the more straight forward approach, and it is typically the best avenue to pursue for reliable results but some players like combo, and some players do exceptionally well with combo. If any deck is going to be designed to cater to the combo-lovers I think it would be Phoenix, Dragon, and Scorpion. So far, they all do... Sure I can Swim requires I bid higher than my opponent AND dishonor a target AND spend 2 fate... but I still was able to take out a Kisada with 3 fate and watch commander when my opponent bid lower to be able to use Good Omens. Sure a Raitsugu with duelist training, way of the dragon, and a pair of swords is a lot to play, but it DOES a lot too!!

Kaede and Seeker of Knowledge is already a pretty cool combo, letting you get 3 ring effects in 1 conflict. Other cards will certainly come out expanding on this combo. This isn't just about getting more out of a combat, but it also means you cannot be denied rings. Some players use the tactic of attacking first weakly into a specific ring so that you claim it in defense. Phoenix are building a protection against that.

Re: Combos.

Phoenix decks have always, always relied upon combinations of cards, and while that's a CCG element I would happily consign to the dustbin of history, it doesn't feel out of place- the Phoenix are almost never straightforward in how they go about achieving their goals, and a huge part of their schtick has always been strength through having access to every Element without being terribly bad at any of them.

Yes, Kaede is combo-oriented- but really, so is Tsukune. So are most of the Phoenix cards- the yojimbo is useless trash if you're not protecting a shugenja with her, for example.

Everyone has synergies, but the Phoenix pretty explicitly require building a desired board state to get anything done- they're very, very light on cards that just sit there looking terrifying upon arrival.

14 hours ago, Kubernes said:

It's rather pointless to compare Kaede and Hotaru. They are in different clans, have access to different cards, they don't compete with either in deck slots, and perform different functions.

If people want to compare her to someone then I suggest comparing her to Tsukune instead.

Well, Tsukune is often favoured in comparisons with Hotaru, so it gets even worse for Kaede by comparison. I'll elaborate on this a bit later on.

Hotaru vs. Kaede: While it is true that they are from different clans, have access to different cards and do not compete in deck slots... They perform similar functions. Both are "win-more" characters. Both rely on victory to execute their abilities. Both use a double ring effect as the reward (on offense) for a win and both rely on just their stats to achieve said victory. Meaning, on their own, each character does nothing to affect the battle beyond stats. And so, their functions are similar in that way.

Beyond that, each character follows a game economy template (of sorts). There are 3 Champions (Toturi, Tsukune and Hotaru) with a 5 Fate cost and a double ring effect. So there these characters serve as closer references to what Kaede should have been. As it stands, every one of them betters her as a character simply because they provide a similar effect without the stats deficiency.

Tsukune vs Kaede: Aside from the Shugenja trait, I see very little reason to favour Kaede over Tsukune. Kaede loses out in pure stats, in stats after honoured and in ability. Without a doubt, the passive ring execution is better than win-based execution. Which leaves Kaede's ring negation trait to make up the difference (it doesn't). That said, when the game grows to allow for more fully formed Shugenja based decks, I could see iterations where Tsukune is supplanted by Kaede. It will be a while before we get there though...

I do understand Ignithas' point about combo cards with a higher ceiling. In some cases, that type of card could be favoured. For instance, many people favour Tsukune over Hotaru/Toturi, even though Tsukune is weaker from start and more combo driven. Her potential stats boost and passive ability make up for that difference though, so a 'combo card' is clearly favoured here over more straight impact cards. I don't see that applying to Kaede though. Her ability is not appreciably greater than that of Toturi/Hotaru, nor do her stats compare, but the player still pays a Champion level cost to field her...?

My fear/trepidation here is that design short-changed her stats because of the Shugenja trait -- Something I felt negatively impacted Phoenix design in Old5R. I hope that was not a factor.

On 8/24/2017 at 1:25 PM, shosuko said:

As I recall... Goblins are not inherently tainted. There is a Goblin City in the Shadowlands that has no signs of the taint. The Crab use Goblins as manual labor within the Empire.

the goblins weren't tainted to start, but they swore fealty to Fu Leng when he crash landed, and became so. Consequently ever carded goblin in the old game was tainted (ie had the shadowlands trait). the rpg and fiction muddies the water a bit. the city tho definitely had signs of taint, until it was turned over the kuni, who presumably spent some idiotic amounts of jade trying to purify it. they DEFINITELY aren't used in the empire as labor. as was pointed out, i think you're thinking of mujina.

9 hours ago, Anemura said:

Well, Tsukune is often favoured in comparisons with Hotaru, so it gets even worse for Kaede by comparison. I'll elaborate on this a bit later on.

Hotaru vs. Kaede: While it is true that they are from different clans, have access to different cards and do not compete in deck slots... They perform similar functions. Both are "win-more" characters. Both rely on victory to execute their abilities. Both use a double ring effect as the reward (on offense) for a win and both rely on just their stats to achieve said victory. Meaning, on their own, each character does nothing to affect the battle beyond stats. And so, their functions are similar in that way.

Beyond that, each character follows a game economy template (of sorts). There are 3 Champions (Toturi, Tsukune and Hotaru) with a 5 Fate cost and a double ring effect. So there these characters serve as closer references to what Kaede should have been. As it stands, every one of them betters her as a character simply because they provide a similar effect without the stats deficiency.

Tsukune vs Kaede: Aside from the Shugenja trait, I see very little reason to favour Kaede over Tsukune. Kaede loses out in pure stats, in stats after honoured and in ability. Without a doubt, the passive ring execution is better than win-based execution. Which leaves Kaede's ring negation trait to make up the difference (it doesn't). That said, when the game grows to allow for more fully formed Shugenja based decks, I could see iterations where Tsukune is supplanted by Kaede. It will be a while before we get there though...

I do understand Ignithas' point about combo cards with a higher ceiling. In some cases, that type of card could be favoured. For instance, many people favour Tsukune over Hotaru/Toturi, even though Tsukune is weaker from start and more combo driven. Her potential stats boost and passive ability make up for that difference though, so a 'combo card' is clearly favoured here over more straight impact cards. I don't see that applying to Kaede though. Her ability is not appreciably greater than that of Toturi/Hotaru, nor do her stats compare, but the player still pays a Champion level cost to field her...?

My fear/trepidation here is that design short-changed her stats because of the Shugenja trait -- Something I felt negatively impacted Phoenix design in Old5R. I hope that was not a factor.

How is Tsukune favored over Hotaru? Other than the 1 higher glory and military, Tsukune is entirely inferior to Hotaru.

On 8/26/2017 at 1:05 PM, Kubernes said:

How is Tsukune favored over Hotaru? Other than the 1 higher glory and military, Tsukune is entirely inferior to Hotaru.

Tsukune is superior to Hotaru, IMO.

A passive double ring effect beats a win-based double ring effect. There are too many permutations in each given battle for the opposite to be true. Tsukune's ability does not dictate her utility, while that's exactly how Hotaru functions.

Now, I understand the counter-arguments to Tsukune are often that the opposing player can leave her with the RoW + RoA/RoE, or that she doesn't affect the board on her current turn beyond her stats. These are her drawbacks. In reply, I would say that I prefer my opponents avoid the RoW, and that her ceiling when honoured is higher than any Champion. So there's a trade off. She does affect the board state in raw numbers, and she sets up the next turn with Ring effects + Favour assurance. The quirky thing about her is that she still affects the current turn too, indirectly. The opponent knows that she will get 2 ring effects off, forcing him/her to be aggressive enough to claim 2 rings, lest they lose out on the favour and the board state race (ring effects).

The aspect I like most about Tsukune is that she can allows for conservative play. This is different than what most games tend to be like. Hotaru's maximum gains are made when she attacks, so the focus is still on the attack. This is what most games are like. In other words, she allows the Phoenix to variate play styles while forcing the opponent to commit more to make an equal amount of gain. They know they will likely have to face Tsukune on defense because the Phoenix player will get to resolve 2 rings regardless.

Lastly, I like that she is equally effective in either battle type. It may not seem like much, but that 1 extra Military can mean something when battle types are switched, or when one absolutely has to break a province via Military. The same design thought would have helped Kaede's card.

2 hours ago, Anemura said:

Tsukune is superior to Hotaru, IMO.

A passive double ring effect beats a win-based double ring effect. There are too many permutations in each given battle for the opposite to be true. Tsukune's ability does not dictate her utility, while that's exactly how Hotaru functions.

Now, I understand the counter-arguments to Tsukune are often that the opposing player can leave her with the RoW + RoA/RoE, or that she doesn't affect the board on her current turn beyond her stats. These are her drawbacks. In reply, I would say that I prefer my opponents avoid the RoW, and that her ceiling when honoured is higher than any Champion. So there's a trade off. She does affect the board state in raw numbers, and she sets up the next turn with Ring effects + Favour assurance. The quirky thing about her is that she still affects the current turn too, indirectly. The opponent knows that she will get 2 ring effects off, forcing him/her to be aggressive enough to claim 2 rings, lest they lose out on the favour and the board state race (ring effects).

The aspect I like most about Tsukune is that she can allows for conservative play. This is different than what most games tend to be like. Hotaru's maximum gains are made when she attacks, so the focus is still on the attack. This is what most games are like. In other words, she allows the Phoenix to variate play styles while forcing the opponent to commit more to make an equal amount of gain. They know they will likely have to face Tsukune on defense because the Phoenix player will get to resolve 2 rings regardless.

Lastly, I like that she is equally effective in either battle type. It may not seem like much, but that 1 extra Military can mean something when battle types are switched, or when one absolutely has to break a province via Military. The same design thought would have helped Kaede's card.

I have to disagree with Tsukune. She does want you to play conservatively with her, but that isn't a good thing. People instinctive seem to think they are getting two rings effects every time they have her in play and that these are desirable ring effects for that turn and at that moment. Often during playing these two conditions are rather uncommon. Neither is Favour assurance because sometimes you're not getting the rings you want and whether or not the Water ring is available is highly dependent on the player/board state.

There's also the problem of even if the opponent attacks, defending with Tsukune will still cause the ring to be claimed by the conflict's winner. Yes, unless somehow skill was 0 for both sides. There's also that problem that attacking is the usual method of winning in the game for most 1x core set games.

Tsukune is the win-more champion of the core set based on her ability. It simply creates the mindset of things going perfectly, when often it's just not the case. Rather than trying to make the situation go as perfectly as possible, a player should be planning on playing a game where things are struggling. A Hotaru can actually get players out of struggling situations, as evident over Gencon, through that ability and much more easily than a Tsukune.

In several ways, Kaede actually fixes some of those problems. She allows more flexibility based on the situation, rather than push you into certain circumstances with Tsukune on the board. Additionally, Kaede can greatly affect the value of adding fate to characters through the potential of multiple void ring effects.

I'm not saying Tsukune is bad, just that she isn't as strong as people think she is. Tsukune is essentially the champion, or central character, for the honored status Phoenix because she's essentially a more expensive Serene Warrior. Kaede is the shugenja champion of the clan.

Tsukune is the second best champion in the game next to Shoju. She always gives you value, no matter what. Comparing her to a slightly better serene warrior is silly, because she will give you rings and rings win games. With Way of the Phoenix you can even guarantee the ones you want and with Know the World you can trigger rings twice per turn. Her synergy with phoenix is incredible.

Hotaru needs to win a specific type of conflict as an attacker to get value, thats all your getting out of her. Tsukune can do anything you need her to and still get value.

Kaede is good, very good, but Tsukune wins games. If I drop her the sheer amount of advantage she will generate over the 2 turns minimum I have her is bonkers. But considering your want to run both of them when you can... its just like having multiple champions in the deck.

And worrying about your opponent leaving water is silly when you want to be swinging for water anyway with Adept of Waves.

As someone doing VERY well with dishonor phoenix, playing Tsukune is usually a death knell for the opponent as you can play completely defensively and still drain them down.

Hotaru is ok, a giant beater, but Tsukune changes the entire nature of the game and forces your opponent to have to reconsider every choice he makes when it comes to rings to swing, that is huge.

3 hours ago, TheItsyBitsySpider said:

Tsukune is the second best champion in the game next to Shoju. She always gives you value, no matter what. Comparing her to a slightly better serene warrior is silly, because she will give you rings and rings win games. With Way of the Phoenix you can even guarantee the ones you want and with Know the World you can trigger rings twice per turn. Her synergy with phoenix is incredible.

Hotaru needs to win a specific type of conflict as an attacker to get value, thats all your getting out of her. Tsukune can do anything you need her to and still get value.

Kaede is good, very good, but Tsukune wins games. If I drop her the sheer amount of advantage she will generate over the 2 turns minimum I have her is bonkers. But considering your want to run both of them when you can... its just like having multiple champions in the deck.

And worrying about your opponent leaving water is silly when you want to be swinging for water anyway with Adept of Waves.

As someone doing VERY well with dishonor phoenix, playing Tsukune is usually a death knell for the opponent as you can play completely defensively and still drain them down.

Hotaru is ok, a giant beater, but Tsukune changes the entire nature of the game and forces your opponent to have to reconsider every choice he makes when it comes to rings to swing, that is huge.

Tsukune is certainly stronger than Hotaru. I personally don't think that she is the second best clan champion, but the advantages she can accumulate when left unchecked and the combo potential with cards like "Way of the Phoenix" and "Charge" is pretty awesome.

On 8/25/2017 at 9:49 PM, Shiba Gunichi said:

Re: Combos.

Phoenix decks have always, always relied upon combinations of cards, and while that's a CCG element I would happily consign to the dustbin of history, it doesn't feel out of place- the Phoenix are almost never straightforward in how they go about achieving their goals, and a huge part of their schtick has always been strength through having access to every Element without being terribly bad at any of them.

Yes, Kaede is combo-oriented- but really, so is Tsukune. So are most of the Phoenix cards- the yojimbo is useless trash if you're not protecting a shugenja with her, for example.

Everyone has synergies, but the Phoenix pretty explicitly require building a desired board state to get anything done- they're very, very light on cards that just sit there looking terrifying upon arrival.

This is pretty much Phoenix in a nutshell... and it is why I`ve always liked playing Phoenix.

The Phoenix decks tend to always be based on how quickly they can put their combo of cards together, but when it does happen quite often they take control of the board regardless of how powerful individual cards are across the board. So Kaede fits perfectly into that, but would pretty much be useless in any other deck.

10 hours ago, Kubernes said:

I have to disagree with Tsukune. She does want you to play conservatively with her, but that isn't a good thing. People instinctive seem to think they are getting two rings effects every time they have her in play and that these are desirable ring effects for that turn and at that moment. Often during playing these two conditions are rather uncommon. Neither is Favour assurance because sometimes you're not getting the rings you want and whether or not the Water ring is available is highly dependent on the player/board state.

There's also the problem of even if the opponent attacks, defending with Tsukune will still cause the ring to be claimed by the conflict's winner. Yes, unless somehow skill was 0 for both sides. There's also that problem that attacking is the usual method of winning in the game for most 1x core set games.

Tsukune is the win-more champion of the core set based on her ability. It simply creates the mindset of things going perfectly, when often it's just not the case. Rather than trying to make the situation go as perfectly as possible, a player should be planning on playing a game where things are struggling. A Hotaru can actually get players out of struggling situations, as evident over Gencon, through that ability and much more easily than a Tsukune.

In several ways, Kaede actually fixes some of those problems. She allows more flexibility based on the situation, rather than push you into certain circumstances with Tsukune on the board. Additionally, Kaede can greatly affect the value of adding fate to characters through the potential of multiple void ring effects.

I'm not saying Tsukune is bad, just that she isn't as strong as people think she is. Tsukune is essentially the champion, or central character, for the honored status Phoenix because she's essentially a more expensive Serene Warrior. Kaede is the shugenja champion of the clan.

Tsukune is a 'stronger' (+2M/+1P) Serene Warrior until she executes her ability at the end of the round. When that happens, she does something on the level of what other Champions do, but she does it without having to lift a finger. That's very strong.

"Win-more" implies that the player is already winning, or has just won something. Hotaru executes her ability after a win. That's win-more. She has already won the battle and is generating effects to alter the remaining board state. Tsukune executes her ability win or lose, battle or no battle, honoured or dishonoured, bowed or unbowed. That's not win-more. That's 'win regardless'.

The Favour goes to the player with the highest readied Glory + Rings. Tsukune all but ensures that the Phoenix have an advantage here by claiming the remaining rings and having high glory. Also, the type of ring doesn't matter here, just the number.

A defender can claim a contested ring if he/she wins said battle.

Granted, having 2 rings to resolve at the end of the round is not guaranteed. Nor is the quality of the remaining ring(s) assured. At worst, the RoW would have to be avoided by both players for 'quality' to be an issue. Further, if less than 2 rings remain, then it means that both players claimed 4 rings. Hopefully, the Phoenix player claimed 1 or 2 using Tsukune in the conflicts. She still helps in that regard. In other words, things have to align very well against Tsukune for her not to have been effective each turn.

Aside: More often than not, I see the RoE and RoA executed by her. A net effect of about 4 honour points every round.

3 hours ago, Anemura said:

The Favour goes to the player with the highest readied Glory + Rings. Tsukune all but ensures that the Phoenix have an advantage here by claiming the remaining rings and having high glory. Also, the type of ring doesn't matter here, just the number.

Tsukune doesn't claim the remaining rings, she only resolves their effect. So, if there's no RoW remaining, her power doesn't especially help with the Imperial Favor.

Tsukune's ability fires after imperial favor is contested.

32 minutes ago, player2636234 said:

Tsukune's ability fires after imperial favor is contested.

True, I forgot about that. She helps with it even less then.

Tsukune's ability has nothing to do with the imperial favour, and I don`t think any Phoenix player really things of her in that way. Its to get maximum use out of all the rings, and possibly allowing, with combos, multiple per turn use of a ring of your choice. Which is perfect for Phoenix design. The biggest thing about her is that you do not have to attack to get the use of the rings... that is huge. Thus you can defend easier and still use the ring abilities to honour or dishonour out opponents, remove fate etc.

Having Tsukune and a Meddling Mediator out on the same turn is just fantastic. You just defend and not bother swinging, then just cashing in on rings all game, if your opponent swings twice you punish him with the Meddler.

Its all the choice for the opponent and all of them are bad.