Hi everyone!

I've been tinkering with a few ideas the last few days, after watching too many old war films, heavily inspired from the XvT video game, and wondering how a custom built dogfight scenario focused on interceptors and x-wings might look that makes interceptors really really fast, and x-wings behave like they do in the films and game.

I built a conversion mod for x-wing, along with a vassal continuation file for those who might like to try it. It's a lot of fun, but it's at the point now after some solid playtesting time on vassal where it's getting more difficult to assess the balance of things. It doesn't require any special downloads, but you might like to give the manual a read through. Please do play it if you are wanting to offer critique, games don't take too long and things that may look very unbalanced may within the confines of the game be not bad at all.

It's easy to pick up, as most of the core mechanics from X-wing are intact, but some key points: there are no k-turns, you have double dials for each ship for complex maneuvers in the activation phase, stress is a key mechanic linked with last minute changes to maneuvers or close flybys of opponents. Distances for firing are much longer, and the map is bigger, and the ships are faster, but don't expect to hit much from long range, unless you line up great flanking shots right in front of your ship, where the bonuses for accurate fire are very high. Generics only, but they move very fast compared to XWTMG.

It's a pretty wild game, mostly due to the massive importance of flanking your opponent, amongst the other major differences between it and X-wing. It's really not intended as any kind of 'fix, but just a fun game style to try out. I'd like to expand the ship range eventually, but it's important the mechanics are nailed down first.

Word of advice, massed fire is difficult to line up, splitting your ships and getting into 'chases' and getting on the tail of your opponent are crucial for success. Standard X-wing tactics don't seem to apply as much, but something much closer to basic dogfight maneuvers are worth keeping in mind, like having a late wingman to cover your tail!

Give it a go if you think it sounds cool, and please let me know what you think!

Current Version: 2.1 (Aug. 29 2017):

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B36yywxfFYGWZjYxU2NNQ2hmLUk

Vassal continuation file:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B36yywxfFYGWaWpYbC1RbTlQcEE

7 minutes ago, citruscannon said:

Hi everyone!

I've been tinkering with a few ideas the last few days, after watching too many old war films, and wondering how a custom built dogfight scenario focused on interceptors and x-wings might look that makes interceptors really really fast, and x-wings behave like they do in the films.

I built a conversion mod for x-wing, along with a vassal continuation file for those who might like to try it. It's a lot of fun, but it's at the point now where it's getting more difficult to assess the balance of things. It doesn't require any special downloads, but you might like to give the manual a read through. Please do play it if you are wanting to offer critique, games don't take too long and things that may look very unbalanced may within the confines of the game be not bad at all.

It's easy to pick up, as most of the core mechanics from X-wing are intact, but some key points: there are no k-turns, you have double dials for each ship for complex maneuvers in the activation phase, stress is a key mechanic linked with last minute changes to maneuvers or close flybys of opponents. Distances for firing are much longer, and the map is bigger, and the ships are faster, but don't expect to hit much from long range, unless you line up great flanking shots right in front of your ship, where the bonuses for accurate fire are very high. Generics only, but they move very fast compared to XWTMG.

It's a pretty wild game, mostly due to the massive importance of flanking your opponent, amongst the other major differences between it and X-wing. It's really not intended as any kind of 'fix, but just a fun game style to try out. I'd like to expand the ship range eventually, but it's important the mechanics are nailed down first.

Word of advice, massed fire is difficult to line up, splitting your ships and getting into 'chases' and getting on the tail of your opponent are crucial for success. Standard X-wing tactics don't seem to apply as much, but something much closer to basic dogfight maneuvers are worth keeping in mind, like having a late wingman to cover your tail!

Give it a go if you think it sounds cool, and please let me know what you think!

Game manual:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B36yywxfFYGWMllyZnNHVWlDVmc

Vassal continuation file:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B36yywxfFYGWaWpYbC1RbTlQcEE

Interesting. You have my attention.

It looks pretty fun. I've wanted someone to grab all the missions out of it.

When I want something fast and thematic I like to use Tie Defenders (/D or titleless but usually with mk2) as their dial wants to move at r3 or above almost always.

and their about balanced with Xwings (with integrated). They capture that feel of a fast moving ship and they can be fun to use

Very well done PDF.

I need to test the mod, but would suggest adding the other major ships from the X-Wing vs TIE Fighter game (TIE Fighter, TIE Bomber, A-Wing, Y-Wing).

Good job on restricting unique upgrades, but isn't free ordnance broken?

1 hour ago, citruscannon said:

Hi everyone!

I've been tinkering with a few ideas the last few days, after watching too many old war films, and wondering how a custom built dogfight scenario focused on interceptors and x-wings might look that makes interceptors really really fast, and x-wings behave like they do in the films.

I built a conversion mod for x-wing, along with a vassal continuation file for those who might like to try it. It's a lot of fun, but it's at the point now after some solid playtesting time on vassal where it's getting more difficult to assess the balance of things. It doesn't require any special downloads, but you might like to give the manual a read through. Please do play it if you are wanting to offer critique, games don't take too long and things that may look very unbalanced may within the confines of the game be not bad at all.

It's easy to pick up, as most of the core mechanics from X-wing are intact, but some key points: there are no k-turns, you have double dials for each ship for complex maneuvers in the activation phase, stress is a key mechanic linked with last minute changes to maneuvers or close flybys of opponents. Distances for firing are much longer, and the map is bigger, and the ships are faster, but don't expect to hit much from long range, unless you line up great flanking shots right in front of your ship, where the bonuses for accurate fire are very high. Generics only, but they move very fast compared to XWTMG.

It's a pretty wild game, mostly due to the massive importance of flanking your opponent, amongst the other major differences between it and X-wing. It's really not intended as any kind of 'fix, but just a fun game style to try out. I'd like to expand the ship range eventually, but it's important the mechanics are nailed down first.

Word of advice, massed fire is difficult to line up, splitting your ships and getting into 'chases' and getting on the tail of your opponent are crucial for success. Standard X-wing tactics don't seem to apply as much, but something much closer to basic dogfight maneuvers are worth keeping in mind, like having a late wingman to cover your tail!

Give it a go if you think it sounds cool, and please let me know what you think!

Game manual:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B36yywxfFYGWMllyZnNHVWlDVmc

Vassal continuation file:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B36yywxfFYGWaWpYbC1RbTlQcEE

We're running an alternative format contest for the Scum and Villainy podcast. Send this to [email protected] to enter. We're going to do some sort of support for the winner.


(full disclosure. I love XvT and still have it installed on my PC thanks to good old games.)

2 hours ago, Quadjumper King said:

When I want something fast and thematic I like to use Tie Defenders (/D or titleless but usually with mk2) as their dial wants to move at r3 or above almost always.

and their about balanced with Xwings (with integrated). They capture that feel of a fast moving ship and they can be fun to use

Yea!
You may find with this that the game flies significantly different than regular X-wing. You've got time to plan complex swerves and maneuvers that would normally just park you in front of someone's guns, so it's very flexible.

1 hour ago, Odanan said:

Very well done PDF.

I need to test the mod, but would suggest adding the other major ships from the X-Wing vs TIE Fighter game (TIE Fighter, TIE Bomber, A-Wing, Y-Wing).

Good job on restricting unique upgrades, but isn't free ordnance broken?

Haha yes it appears so on first glance, but you may find when you play, the interceptors are unbelievably difficult to fire it with torps. When you do fire it, it packs a whallop. You can't acquire target locks out of arc, and you have to acquire them and keep them throughout the next two actions and maneuver before you can use it, and then it disappears. This makes getting the torpedoes off tricky, so it just becomes a useful tool for a slightly more potent attack. And in this game, I assure you that giving up the mod slot for guidance chips to give the torpedoes some consistency can harm you since the x-wings really suffer on their turning radius without it. That said, it's not necessary, but demands completely different approach tactics).

Effectively what happens is this, to fire ordnance. You must either a) correctly guess where a ship is going to be on its first move, or match the momentum of one coming at you to pick up the lock, that's the easy bit. (Since you can only acquire locks in arc after your first move, no repositioning). They then have two chances to shake you, since on their second move (if they are going first) they may pull an emergency break maneuver which half the time you won't be able to follow AND keep them within the r2-3 band. Or they are travelling so fast that you are unable to keep arc on them, or (if the interceptor pilot is clever, following one bait pilot exposes an x-wing to a withering hail of fire from elsewhere). Or, if they are a higher pilot skill, you need to have guessed where they will end up on their second maneuver+ repositioning, because again exposing yourself to try and get the shot can often lead to an interceptor at range 1 with initiative, and if they are hitting you at range 1, within the angles of their base, and out of your arc so they know to use expose, you might be eating a 5v0 attack that turn. That's much rarer, of course, as it should be, but my experience with it so far has been that acquiring a lock on the right ship, correctly tailing him long enough and keeping him in range 2-3 is a pretty awesome task, and you typically get rewarded for it if you can follow through, with a dead interceptor.

normally, free ordnance would be bananas, but the hoops you jump through to acquire a lock at the right time on the right ship are really difficult. You pretty much need to satisfy the condition of really tailing a player before you get a torp off, or you get lucky. It feels about right in the games we've played so far, but if this isn't the feeling you get when you play, there are a lot of incremental adjustments that can be made!

As for other ships, absolutely. I really want to include them, but the major rules of the game mode, especially the persistent game effects need to be balanced for both sides before I add them incrementally. I opted not for TIE swarm as my 'balanced' benchmark, but rather the matchup shown in this edition. I want X-wings and TIE Interceptors to feel very powerful and roughly on par, with the X-wings having a slight edge. Everything added after will be done with points adjustments or restrictions to keep that feel intact. Hope that makes sense!

1 hour ago, Kelvan said:

We're running an alternative format contest for the Scum and Villainy podcast. Send this to [email protected] to enter. We're going to do some sort of support for the winner.


(full disclosure. I love XvT and still have it installed on my PC thanks to good old games.)

Oh that sounds awesome!
I'd love to enter. I'll send in 1.2 if the community catches anything wonky in this edition, otherwise I'll drop this off before your deadline.

here's an illustration of how a turn might go, with a ps1 alpha swerving in to attack a ps4 red squadron pilot, who has been too bold in his turn maneuver and has misinterpreted his approach!

Turn order was Blue move 1 then Red move 1 then Blue move 2 then Red move 2.
Combat phase would be next.

But the positioning of the Alpha means he nails him with a snap shot on the pass, then fires again in combat.

Good work @citruscannon ! I have never played the real game because I am of a newer genereration, but this X-wing mod looks neat! I look forward to seeing you develop this.

I was just wondering how you are handling ion mechanics since the X-wings can take Ion Torpedoes.

Seems real neat, I definitely gotta try this out. It sounds a lot like the game AirWar C21, which itself is something of a mod for the old hex and chit game Air Superiority. Specifically in the duo maneuver system and how target locks are handled (though in AirWar you need to roll to acquire the lock because faulty Cold War radars aren't a sure thing.)

Just some preliminary thoughts on expanding the game;

-The A-wing actually fits in rather well in my opinion- The extra green straight maneuvers give it a lot more speed compared to the X-wing, but it'll have a harder time getting through defenses. Taking Chardann Refit actually becomes an interesting list building choice when that's all you pay; Do you spend 2 points for a tricky to use missile, or use those two points elswhere?

-With a lot of red maneuvers and no astromech slot, the B-wing becomes very sluggish compared to the other rebel fighters. Of course, it is actually supposed to be. The System upgrades are kind of weird here, although they could help give the b-wing a niche. Cannons could become pretty powerful, though. The net result might be a slow, plodding fighter that's very vulnerable to getting trapped by the enemy, but packs a punch if it manages to get a good shot.

-A Y-wing with R2 astromech only has an almost identical dial to the X-wing (The only difference is the Y-wing only has a green 2-turn, instead of a white 3-turn and a green 2-turn); While the ships are pretty close to speed in the EU (although not in the games), the Y-wing is supposed to be less maneuverable. You might want to reduce R2 Astromech's affect on the Y-wing's dial, especially since as is it's almost the only Astromech worth running (Although easy access to marksmanship might make R5 somewhat more attractive). You might also want to restrict the Y-wing to the classic ion turret to make things easier to balance.

-The Tie Advanced's system upgrade is weird and will likely need to be reevaluated. Advanced targeting computer loses a lot of value with the harder target locks, but Accuracy corrector becomes scary at long range and is a powerful source of extra action economy in a scenario that otherwise lacks it. On the plus side, with Twin Ion Engine Mk. 2 the Advanced actually flies rather nicely while still being distinct from the interceptor.

-The Tie Bomber actually becomes pretty manueverable with TIE MK. 2, which is kind of weird. Long Range Sensors would give it a niche by allowing it to grab target locks at longer ranges (presumably it would still require the ship to be in arc). One thing to be concerned about is the Bomber's surprisingly efficient chassis; It's actually not far behind a Tie Fighter in a straight joust.

-The Tie Fighters disproportionate efficiency could be an issue, although the minimal upgrades compared to the rebels and lack of green turns might hold it back a bit here.

Definately something I might want to try sometime, and kudos for the well put together pdf.

5 hours ago, AwesomeJedi said:

Good work @citruscannon ! I have never played the real game because I am of a newer genereration, but this X-wing mod looks neat! I look forward to seeing you develop this.

I was just wondering how you are handling ion mechanics since the X-wings can take Ion Torpedoes.

Ion mechanics were dealt with in the the demo vassal file, but it seems I missed it in the manual. I won't be updating the vassal file, but will the manual, so I've adjusted it amongst the other things in the changelog below. thanks!!

3 hours ago, Squark said:

Just some preliminary thoughts on expanding the game;

-The A-wing actually fits in rather well in my opinion- The extra green straight maneuvers give it a lot more speed compared to the X-wing, but it'll have a harder time getting through defenses. Taking Chardann Refit actually becomes an interesting list building choice when that's all you pay; Do you spend 2 points for a tricky to use missile, or use those two points elswhere?

-With a lot of red maneuvers and no astromech slot, the B-wing becomes very sluggish compared to the other rebel fighters. Of course, it is actually supposed to be. The System upgrades are kind of weird here, although they could help give the b-wing a niche. Cannons could become pretty powerful, though. The net result might be a slow, plodding fighter that's very vulnerable to getting trapped by the enemy, but packs a punch if it manages to get a good shot.

-A Y-wing with R2 astromech only has an almost identical dial to the X-wing (The only difference is the Y-wing only has a green 2-turn, instead of a white 3-turn and a green 2-turn); While the ships are pretty close to speed in the EU (although not in the games), the Y-wing is supposed to be less maneuverable. You might want to reduce R2 Astromech's affect on the Y-wing's dial, especially since as is it's almost the only Astromech worth running (Although easy access to marksmanship might make R5 somewhat more attractive). You might also want to restrict the Y-wing to the classic ion turret to make things easier to balance.

-The Tie Advanced's system upgrade is weird and will likely need to be reevaluated. Advanced targeting computer loses a lot of value with the harder target locks, but Accuracy corrector becomes scary at long range and is a powerful source of extra action economy in a scenario that otherwise lacks it. On the plus side, with Twin Ion Engine Mk. 2 the Advanced actually flies rather nicely while still being distinct from the interceptor.

-The Tie Bomber actually becomes pretty manueverable with TIE MK. 2, which is kind of weird. Long Range Sensors would give it a niche by allowing it to grab target locks at longer ranges (presumably it would still require the ship to be in arc). One thing to be concerned about is the Bomber's surprisingly efficient chassis; It's actually not far behind a Tie Fighter in a straight joust.

-The Tie Fighters disproportionate efficiency could be an issue, although the minimal upgrades compared to the rebels and lack of green turns might hold it back a bit here.

Definately something I might want to try sometime, and kudos for the well put together pdf.

Great points all! Very nice to hear how you think these might fit in, and I think these are all excellent points.
Yes with the persistent game effects two dice ships in the right position can still be murderous, and the more you have on the board the higher chances of getting good positioning to rack up all the possible bonuses. A TIE fighter can for example (and who felt safe enough) expose, in a blind spot, with guns directly on target to be rolling 4v0 on an X-wing. Now ideally the X-wing will be piloted well enough that this happens only rarely, but it means that seeing more than 6 TIEs in a game is probably going to be overpowered almost no matter what.

So far from game analysis, a ship lacking a full 90 degree turn for both dials is heavily disadvantaged if they do not have access to boost. It becomes very necessary to alter your squadron tactics to incorporate a wingman who can cover the 6 o'clock position of those ships since they almost always lose the turning battle. This makes TIEs very vulnerable in a 1v1 battle, but of course if you have double the ships of your opponent, the effect is completely nullified.

For this reason some careful playtesting of the TIE fighter (and bomber) will be needed to make ship specific adjustments that fit with this gametype.

I would like to introduce ships slowly, in 'waves' so to speak, and readjust ships as necessary. I haven't found it necessary yet, but point penalties are a very real possibility for balancing out the performance characteristics of this ships. (For example, if you have 1 or greater TIE fighters, add +2 pts for each additional ship of the same type for TIEs, or something to that effect.)

An additional game effect which I would like to incorporate but will require the game state to have steadied a bit are forward and rear deflectors. This won't be using reinforce or anything, and I don't want to introduce new tokens, but something along the lines of ships with shields may either increase or decrease their agility inside of their firing arc at the tradeoff of the opposite happening outside of their arc. This has to be balanced very carefully, and the rest of the game state needs to have settled before I want to start mucking around with this.

But the general idea is I would like every mechanic and move and comment made during the trench run in the first film, for example, to be a relevant command you can give in this game type.

VERSION UPDATE:
v1.2

Aug. 24 2017

Changelog:

• pg. 7 - Ion effects have been clarified, effectively cutting your maneuverability in half by forcing a straight 2 on your first maneuver, but allowing movement on the second. This is intended to not completely cripple a ship, but to adequately reward the ship firing. B-wings and Y-wings with ion cannons will make heavy use of this effect to compensate for their poor dials.
• pg. 4 - Break has been made an event that occurs before revealing your second dial, so as better to represent a surprise maneuver. in the previous state an opponent with higher PS would have full knowledge of the break and may have been able to compensate too easily.
• pg. 5 - Course Correction has been adjusted with a stress penalty so less maneuverable ships cannot abuse this all the time as a pseudo-boost, but it works as originally intended

Latest File:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B36yywxfFYGWODNMWVhVck1sYnM

VERSION UPDATE:
v1.3

Aug. 24 2017

Changelog:

• pg. 7 - Ion effects have been clarified, effectively cutting your maneuverability in half by forcing a straight 2 on your first maneuver, but allowing movement on the second. This is intended to not completely cripple a ship, but to adequately reward the ship firing. B-wings and Y-wings with ion cannons will make heavy use of this effect to compensate for their poor dials.
• pg. 4 - Break has been made an event that occurs before revealing your second dial, so as better to represent a surprise maneuver. in the previous state an opponent with higher PS would have full knowledge of the break and may have been able to compensate too easily.
• pg. 5 - Course Correction has been adjusted with a stress penalty so less maneuverable ships cannot abuse this all the time as a pseudo-boost, but it works as originally intended
• pg. 4, 5 - 'Break' and Course correct have been amended to 3 and 2 stress each, for balance reasons. An example 'bloom' of possible positions for a set of fast moves and a set of slow moves is shown, and better reflects large penalties for unexpected adjustments to heading. In emergencies, this will ensure that moves made in the next phase are also green to clear stress, which better reflects the difficulty of the maneuver, and prevents daisy-chaining of 'break' maneuvers every turn.

Latest File:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B619ldmdkJOGZ0xRQ3RRQXJhTEk

VERSION UPDATE:
v2.1

Aug. 29 2017

Changelog:

• pg. 8 - Ion effects have been developed further, and split from other effects in combat for clarity. Like as in the X-wing video game, ion effects do not deal tokens if the opposing ship has shields. correspondingly, the cost of each ion weapon for each ship has been dropped.
• pg.9 - Added a whole new starfighters section, expanding from two ships to eight ships, filling (most) of the slots from the X-wing and TIE fighter games.
  Notably, I've inserted two opposing mechanics, vectored thrusters (for even more agile interceptors and TIE advanced) and the very well-known power distribution system from the game.
  Although there isn't a hard drain on the speed of the pilot to use these abilities, the stress forces greens, and currently seems like a suitable way to force the ship to slow down without having some kind of retroactive condition. This one may need work, but the idea is to give flavour cards that differentiate these ships from each other in play style a bit, in a way that title cards do in X-wing, or EPTs.
• pg10-11- Ships! I've added flavour text, special abilities, and cost bonuses for added ships from either side. right now, as put I think they are semi-balanced, but obviously points costs adjustments is the main goal of version 2

VERSION HERE:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B36yywxfFYGWZjYxU2NNQ2hmLUk

On 8/24/2017 at 6:04 PM, Bike Stunts said:

Seems real neat, I definitely gotta try this out. It sounds a lot like the game AirWar C21, which itself is something of a mod for the old hex and chit game Air Superiority. Specifically in the duo maneuver system and how target locks are handled (though in AirWar you need to roll to acquire the lock because faulty Cold War radars aren't a sure thing.)

Haven't played with Airwar, but this sounds neat. Having rolls for locks seems like a good idea, if it weren't so darn difficult to achieve in this game this would be a good way to go about it. It's funny though how trying to develop mechanics for a game makes me realize how hard it is as a game designer to decide when to assign something an RNG mechanic or to leave it up to player interaction. leaving it to player interaction can be really fun, but always skews the game towards the players who are playing it best. Can potentially make it tougher on newer players to play, and also diminishes the role of luck in flattening out the playing field.

Nice work here @citruscannon !

Do you know about the old "Star Warriors" game?
Here's the rules, maybe you will find something useful in there :
http://www.starwarstimeline.net/WestEndGames/Star Warriors Starfighter Combat WEG40201.pdf

3 hours ago, Giledhil said:

Nice work here @citruscannon !

Do you know about the old "Star Warriors" game?
Here's the rules, maybe you will find something useful in there :
http://www.starwarstimeline.net/WestEndGames/Star Warriors Starfighter Combat WEG40201.pdf

Thanks!

There's some really solid ideas in there. It's a tough balance, I very much would like this game to feel a 'little' more complex, but at the same time not too fiddly with remembering too many rules. I'll have a good parse through, they may have better ideas for combining some things or better representing real life effects with game effects.

Thanks for passing this along!!!

This looks intriguing (and pretty cool). So if I understand correctly, the red moves are removed? Have you found this exaggerates the differences between ships or has it made them more similar? Also, why the two maneouver dials? I would have thought this would complicate things so am curious to hear what your gameplay experience has been and what led you to this new mechanic.

Would love to see this extended to the ST era as well, although I know the intent is to first get the XvT game ships up and running first.

I played this version on Vassal a while back. I think it was the OP:s third or fourth game or so. Just came here to say that it was some of the most fun I've had playing x-wing. I can really recomend this format to anyone whos grown a bit tired of the turret and bomb meta. Positioning and anticipating your opponents moves really takes a front seat here. I will say this however, my brain was fried after one game. Its pretty much like playing 3 Echos (the phantom pilot) vs even more Echos.

I will introduce this to my group and see if they bite. Thanks for the work you put into this citruscannon!

I really want to play this! I don't have anyone locally to play with though... How often are folks playing on Vassal?

15 hours ago, Calibri Garamond said:

I played this version on Vassal a while back. I think it was the OP:s third or fourth game or so. Just came here to say that it was some of the most fun I've had playing x-wing. I can really recomend this format to anyone whos grown a bit tired of the turret and bomb meta. Positioning and anticipating your opponents moves really takes a front seat here. I will say this however, my brain was fried after one game. Its pretty much like playing 3 Echos (the phantom pilot) vs even more Echos.

I will introduce this to my group and see if they bite. Thanks for the work you put into this citruscannon!

So glad you enjoyed it

5 hours ago, Gersun said:

I really want to play this! I don't have anyone locally to play with though... How often are folks playing on Vassal?

Hi there, I'm online a lot on Vassal under the username Oiler, I'm always up for a game.
As the game starts to get really polished, my hope is that it starts to become possible to ask people for a game on Vassal and most will at least have heard of it, but we're a long ways off that yet :).

The next version will be ready in about a week, with some small balance changes based on last months play data.