Just now, svelok said:

Where was this said?

What's the alternative? Release three waves of ships and then axe the game? New releases are what keep games fresh, and while latter ships might be more niche than earlier ships, better to have them than not.

Lots of people are thrilled to have the Assault Gunboat, but that certainly meets the criteria of being a mostly unknown EU ship.

Released smaller waves and/or spaced them out more. They're a business maximising their profits, I understand that. Nevertheless they've killed it in my group and I don't think we are alone in that.

2 minutes ago, NervousSam said:

Hey, I said I don't mind the EU ships one bit. I just acknowledge the large section of the community who thinks Star Wars only happened from 1977 to 1983.

And I believe the Team Covenant video asked the question, could be wrong. I've watched a ton of coverage.

It's not that I object to EU stuff. It's the near obsolescence of the ships from the movies I have a problem with. The game's called X Wing but other than Biggs you don't see 'em! Plenty of flying toilet seats though from some character called Dengar who was in the movie for about 10 seconds and to my best recollection had no lines and wasn't even named.

7 minutes ago, Guest Bohun said:

I can live with some strange vehicle or nevervknown before unit as far as evry army needs to have 3+ regular stormtroopers.

That's not how it actually works though, you just need 3 Corps units, so if/when FFG releases more of those you won't need Stormtroopers.

I think odds are pretty good they will, but if they didn't that would have a very drastic and interesting effect on game. Always having to have 3 squads of either Stormtroopers or Rebel Troopers would go along way to keeping the OT feel some people want.

3 minutes ago, Bolshevik65 said:

Nevertheless they've killed it in my group and I don't think we are alone in that.

Maybe in your group but if the X-Wing boards and things like major tournaments are any indication X-Wing is still selling like mad and if anything is still gaining market share.

2 minutes ago, VanorDM said:

That's not how it actually works though, you just need 3 Corps units, so if/when FFG releases more of those you won't need Stormtroopers.

I think odds are pretty good they will, but if they didn't that would have a very drastic and interesting effect on game. Always having to have 3 squads of either Stormtroopers or Rebel Troopers would go along way to keeping the OT feel some people want.

Maybe in your group but if the X-Wing boards and things like major tournaments are any indication X-Wing is still selling like mad and if anything is still gaining market share.

I don't doubt it is still selling well, that's no help to me of course but I'm sure you're right. I will be interested to see what effect Legion has though because I get the impression there's a lot of disillusionment at the moment.

I tend to think of a meta as the norm for a set or wave. In Hearthstone, the meta changes with every set. You build the core of your deck with 26-28 cards and then take some "tech" or "anti-meta" cards so you can account for the different meta decks being played. Pirate Warrior was popular but in the following set, a crab was released that kills pirates. That crab became an anti-meta tool to give you a leg up in the meta race.

I play a ton of Armada. When I make a fleet, I have to have a counter to the meta so I can win, or at the least have a plan. Flotillas are popular, so having a way to kill them reliably is required for me to do well against the meta.

I think Legion will have meta because it only has 2 factions. MTG has a meta because it has 5 colors, 6 is you count colorless. Armada and X-Wing have a meta because there are 2 and 3 factions, respectively. By limiting what players are capable of working with AND allowing a pool of generic cards/upgrades, it is possible for players to find the optimal way to win. That way becomes the norm, and then someone will find a way to beat it. Thus the meta begins to evolve. I can't speak for GW games because I don't play them.

Legion already has the beginnings of meta creation. Armor and Impact. Armor prevents damage but Impact ignores Armor to deal damage. I can already see the struggle to find balance in bringing enough Impact to deal with a lot of Armor, while also having a way to protect your Impact from other threats and making sure your Impact is useful if you don't face Armor. It's no different in Armada where I want to bring anti-squad tools but still have a use for that tool if I don't face squads.

FFG is pretty good at creating a healthy meta, or at least a wide variety of options to play with within the meta, not including X-Wing.

40k's meta is almost always whoever got the newest codex. Which is why its a much more enjoyable game if you DONT play competitively because otherwise its just pure whatever unit is oddly cheap for their price. Right now its Space Marine gunlines supported by Girlyman (Guilliman, we call him Girlyman because he turns a badass army into a pansy gunline) because "twin link should represent a higher rate of fire, so rather than rerolls now theyre double rate of fire! Oh btw Space Marines still get access to easy rerolls" - they have the nastiest guns both in strength and rate of fire and have something like a 10% miss rate.....

Other tabletops ive played it never swings that stupidly. And usually when it got close to that level of ridiculous balance, it didnt last long. The worst Xwing got was triple jumpmasters with torpedos, that didnt even last a year vs 40k lasting 2-4 years of an obviously imbalanced tactic.
Meta will always be a thing. Whenever someone wins a tournament his list suddenly appears everywhere, even if his list was actually only viable if played just right. But FFG is significantly better at tournament balance than a lot of other companies ive seen, so like the triple torpboats in xwing i dont expect any serious problems to last long.

2 minutes ago, Bolshevik65 said:

I will be interested to see what effect Legion has though because I get the impression there's a lot of disillusionment at the moment.

I don't do much X-Wing myself anymore, I don't think I'm going to get anything from Wave 11, although I will get at least one gunboat from 12. But I still play it every other week.

But I don't think Legion is going to have much impact on X-Wing or Armada. Those games are just too different both in terms of play style and in terms of time commitment. Something I love about X-Wing is opening a pack at the LGS and playing with it as soon as I punch out the 35,000 tokens. But at the same time something I'll love about Legion is being able to paint nice looking models.

But I think that X-Wing and to a point Armada will always be wargame-lites at least in terms of the hoby side of things, so anyone not interested in that side of it is unlikely to get into a game like Legion. On the other hand I think a lot of people who play those games are also likely to pick up Legion, at least a core and some extra units because a star wars skirmish game will appeal to them. But I don't know that many will stop buying X-Wing and/or Armada. I think the biggest group to be impacted by it will be the Skirmish only IA players.

21 minutes ago, VanorDM said:

That's not how it actually works though, you just need 3 Corps units, so if/when FFG releases more of those you won't need Stormtroopers.

I know. But there is 5 types of slots. So if we will have likev2 releases per wave per faction, chances are we will have new corps every 2-3 waves. This means after 2 years there will be 3 corps choices per faction. And this is nt that much to force devs to dig deep in eu (for core troops). Chances are they will be balanced enough to keep all playable..

I've played a lot of different wargames and they all had some sort of Meta rotation. And most of the time, you'd have to buy new stuff to keep up.

In Warhammer Fantasy, when in any given edition of any army book one unit totally failed and another was OP, then in the next edition it would be vice versa, so at least the competitive payers would have to buy some new stuff to keep up.

In Warmachine/Hordes there is a new book twice a year. In these books there is new stuff for multiple factions, often flipping the meta upside down.

The way different companies do this might be different, but the meta is in flux in most games.

To me this is absolutely necessary. First, if the meta becomes stagnant, the game becomes boring and the players will leave. Second, if the meta becomes stagnant, the sales drop, and the producer will leave. Both cases kill a game.

Something else to mention... GW is being a lot more proactive about dealing with meta issues in 8th 40k. They changed the rules about flyers so they can no longer be the only unit on the table and can't hold objectives because people were building flyer only lists.

So the days of meta changes being a new codex thing are gone.

14 hours ago, DesignXception said:

Miniature wargaming companies such as Games Workshop and Warlords release new editions frequently as an avenue to generate refreshed interest in their product lines and generate new revenue. The huge difference with GW, Warlords and the like is that releasing a new edition of the game does not require you to have to rebuy your entire miniature collection. Yes you have to repurchase a new rulebook and codex for your army but for the most part your existing miniature collection will be compatible with the new version. Yes, some units will get "nerfed" and no longer be considered a smart choice to field but you *can* still use them. In games like X-wing and Armada a new version will certainly require you to repurchase everything because the way the game mechanics are introduced into the game through unit and upgrade cards and the cardboard templates placed on the bases...all of which require you to purchase the miniature to acquire and not a simple rulebook repurchase. Sure FFG can offer conversion kits for the older system but that is highly unlikely since their business model is much different and relies on actual product/expansion purchase to generate their revenue.

This is...not necessarily accurate. When Descent went to 2e there was a conversion kit, because FFG understood full well that telling people to rebuy a zillion lieutenant packs was going to make people unhappy, i.e. drop the game. Game of Thrones 2e didn't get that, but, well. They were remaking everything, and the cards are the game, so.

While X-Wing buffs have largely been restricted to "buy a repainted model, sometimes packaged in a huge ship", the Syck is precedent for a straight buff through errata. Armada, which is almost certainly the more relevant comparison given the price points, introduced new squadrons for existing models through a (pure cardboard) campaign pack and, bluntly, I don't see them expecting their audience to purchase a repainted ISD to get some more title cards, ever.

17 hours ago, Slugrage said:

I honestly don't think you've ever watched anyone other than possibly yourself actually play WH40k with a statement like that.

sad but true.

6 hours ago, Vineheart01 said:

40k's meta is almost always whoever got the newest codex. Which is why its a much more enjoyable game if you DONT play competitively because otherwise its just pure whatever unit is oddly cheap for their price. Right now its Space Marine gunlines supported by Girlyman (Guilliman, we call him Girlyman because he turns a badass army into a pansy gunline) because "twin link should represent a higher rate of fire, so rather than rerolls now theyre double rate of fire! Oh btw Space Marines still get access to easy rerolls" - they have the nastiest guns both in strength and rate of fire and have something like a 10% miss rate.....

Ultrasmurfs can now also shoot while running away (Fall back) Spineles cowards!

I actually like that twin link rule now. A twinlinked Lascanon is literally two lascanons (tied together) they should have twice the dakka and not just an increase in shots fired.

1 minute ago, Robin Graves said:

Ultrasmurfs can now also shoot while running away (Fall back) Spineles cowards!

I actually like that twin link rule now. A twinlinked Lascanon is literally two lascanons (tied together) they should have twice the dakka and not just an increase in shots fired.

Actually no they cant, unless i missed a rule they have.
If you Fall Back you cannot shoot, advance, or charge that turn. If you have Fly keyword you can still shoot, and a couple units flatout ignore it entirely such as the Gorkanaut can fall back, shoot, and charge back in.

The rate of fire makes sense, i too always thought it was weird that slapping two barrels together didnt increase the rate of fire. Its the fact that they gave the smurfs access to full rerolls on hits AND wounds in addition to making twinlinked double the rate of fire thats the problem.

1 minute ago, Vineheart01 said:

Actually no they cant, unless i missed a rule they have.
If you Fall Back you cannot shoot, advance, or charge that turn. If you have Fly keyword you can still shoot, and a couple units flatout ignore it entirely such as the Gorkanaut can fall back, shoot, and charge back in.

The rate of fire makes sense, i too always thought it was weird that slapping two barrels together didnt increase the rate of fire. Its the fact that they gave the smurfs access to full rerolls on hits AND wounds in addition to making twinlinked double the rate of fire thats the problem.

Ah, my bad, it's because of their Chapter Tactics (8th codex page 195) Ultramarines: Codex Discipline. They get +1 leadership and can shoot with -1 to hit in the same turn they fall back.

Speaking of chapter tactics: A Salamanders unit gets to re roll 1 failed to hit and one failed to wound each time it shoots or fights. (it's only one weapon, but when you absolutly have to melt a carnifex's face off it helps a lot.)

2 hours ago, mxlm said:

I don't see them expecting their audience to purchase a repainted ISD to get some more title cards, ever.

Ha go put this in the Armada forums. There is a huge Armada base that has been begging for Rogue One ISD I with white paint.

If FFG makes a new ISD and comes with new titles and upgrades, I'm going to buy it. The value is in the upgrades. The collection is in the model.

34 minutes ago, Robin Graves said:

Ah, my bad, it's because of their Chapter Tactics (8th codex page 195) Ultramarines: Codex Discipline. They get +1 leadership and can shoot with -1 to hit in the same turn they fall back.

Speaking of chapter tactics: A Salamanders unit gets to re roll 1 failed to hit and one failed to wound each time it shoots or fights. (it's only one weapon, but when you absolutly have to melt a carnifex's face off it helps a lot.)

See and thats the issue. Even w/o Girlyman around they have access to rerolls of some form.
Meanwhile my orks literally only have 1 reroll PERIOD and its tankbustas vs vehicles in shooting. Smurfs shoot better than my orks punch, and that makes no sense

Just now, Vineheart01 said:

See and thats the issue. Even w/o Girlyman around they have access to rerolls of some form.
Meanwhile my orks literally only have 1 reroll PERIOD and its tankbustas vs vehicles in shooting. Smurfs shoot better than my orks punch, and that makes no sense

Yeah that's not good, now they'll hopefully get better stuff when their codex rolls around, but that only proves your point. At least Khorne berzerkers get to hit a lot. as they should. And the emperor's children flat out get to cheat. Always strike first. (what is this, warhammer high elves?) It's a good thing I'm for chaos, otherwise I'd be upset.

Xwing meta has certainly evolved and changed with each wave. Stuff that was viable in wave 1 is almost never seen except as filler. Each wave introduces something new that EVERYONE needs. There is a serious case of power creep in that game.

Armada doesn't suffer from that as much. Sure, the meta changes, but there isn't a total domination of new metas. High activations were seen as a requirement not too long ago, however some of the top builds right now are 2 activation lists. Wave 1 ships are also still playing important roles in games.

50 minutes ago, kmanweiss said:

Xwing meta has certainly evolved and changed with each wave. Stuff that was viable in wave 1 is almost never seen except as filler. Each wave introduces something new that EVERYONE needs. There is a serious case of power creep in that game.

Armada doesn't suffer from that as much. Sure, the meta changes, but there isn't a total domination of new metas. High activations were seen as a requirement not too long ago, however some of the top builds right now are 2 activation lists. Wave 1 ships are also still playing important roles in games.

Wonder if we'll see power creep.

1 hour ago, Robin Graves said:

Wonder if we'll see power creep.

I truly hope they do better than X-Wing and that new waves only bring variety and not "must haves" people will buy anyway if is cool and Star wars...

8 hours ago, VanorDM said:

Something else to mention... GW is being a lot more proactive about dealing with meta issues in 8th 40k. They changed the rules about flyers so they can no longer be the only unit on the table and can't hold objectives because people were building flyer only lists.

So the days of meta changes being a new codex thing are gone.

They will stop doing what they did the seven editions before? I'll believe that when I see it.

37 minutes ago, Rumar said:

They will stop doing what they did the seven editions before? I'll believe that when I see it.

It's true! Heh. Imagine coming home with 6 Storm Ravens and finding out your list is now illegal. Still, if you do nothing but spam broken stuff you get what's comming to you.

Totally new to all this. Attempted to paint a mini/model for the first time in a good, well, since about the time the Berlin Wall came down. Fit RIGHT into the age of those who grew up as kids with a world built upon SW.

FFG's X-Wing was a gateway for someone like me, who is a SW fan. I wanted some strategy game action in person. Have fun. Being in a community with a MASSIVE gaming scene and great stores, I got curious about painting ... the whole experience. Would see people playing and painting. Could totally get into it. I just could not find a genre I liked. Enter Legion. PUMPED and most likely fit into the marketing audience for the game.

As X-Wing and the local feeling around it became "rivet counter"-centric and the meta REALLY took off, my participation declined. Shockingly, so did the average level of weekly participants at the local stores. It faded. It is a game being played with dice. Not a life death situation. Perspective. However, the climate drastically changed and, opinion, not for the better. Referenced earlier ... to stay competitive you must buy 3 of "x" ships. Game lost the creativity and uniqueness I initially witnessed.

FFG pushes a lot more of this product getting someone like me to make/take the plunge/cross over versus exclusively attempting to capture dollars from someone invested in an X-Wing plus a War Hammer plus "enter name here." The switching cost for a long-time War Hammer player, for example, could be prohibitive. Sure, they will gain market share from the existing hobby community but HIGH ROI? It is a whole bunch of people that fit into a category like myself buying the game; having fun; continuance of said purchasing/fun and NOT getting turned off by cost; competitive landscape (level of ridiculous) or both.

Given the totality of feedback FFG gets around X-Wing from the community here, I would think they are smart enough to manage this product; releases and somewhat control/influence the meta to appease the hardcore hobbyist, while keeping things casual enough to capture continued interest from a newer participants. Failing to do so FFG sees themselves cannibalizing their own profitability. New gamers get turned off. The true hobbyist budgets money between an X-Wing and a Legion, as they spend .50 on each versus the previous $1 on X-wing.

Again, I am super new to all this and ignorance is bliss but sort of how I see this playing out and attempting to give FFG opportunity to work through this. Lessons to be learned from X-Wing.

The issue with wargame "meta," like in 40k, is that people usually do not get many games in during a month and they typically play against the same small group of local people. Couple that with the fact that most people tend to collect just one, or maybe two armies, and that it takes a really long time to buy, build, and paint units. So even when a new unit type drops, you can't just up and try a spam army of them. Whereas in X-Wing, you can drop $60 and you're instantly ready to try out a 4x TIE Aggressor with TLT list. A 40k army can take months to get table ready, so you're not likely to just experiment and find the best possible 'spam unit' forces or 'synergy builds' like you can in MtG or X-Wing.

Of course, army size in Legion looks smaller than that of 40k, there are far fewer factions available, and the factions have far fewer unit choices (so, naturally, it will have more of a 'meta' than other proper wargames).