Just now, Visovics said:

Only time we see ISDs doing bombardment it's on the aftermath, and it's in a coordinated move of 3 ships, wish we had footage of that canon firing in TLJ to compare

Rebels Season 3 finale did show them bombarding the Rebel Base, and wearing down the shield a little at a time - but the shots that missed the shield looked surprisingly weak - no multi-gigaton Saxton style shots here.

Just now, Ironlord said:

Rebels Season 3 finale did show them bombarding the Rebel Base, and wearing down the shield a little at a time - but the shots that missed the shield looked surprisingly weak - no multi-gigaton Saxton style shots here.

Gosh I really need to watch that season 3, I need more Thrawn in my life

2 minutes ago, Visovics said:

Well SPOILERS FROM THE AFTERMATH BOOKS AHEAD READ AT YOUR OWN RISK!!!!

I'm not going to bother reading the book, so thanks for the spoiler. I enjoy the movies for the most part, but I'm not interested enough to get into reading the books.

There's my frustration: they have the SSD Eclipse. Why isn't that in the movie then? Why don't they bring up how the First Order is trying to cover over mistakes of the old empire? Why is tow cables such a problem? When I watched Empire Strikes Back and the Hoth Battle, I thought Luke was trying something because the Armor was too strong for their blasters on their snowspeeders. So, they tried using tow cables, ya know, like the cables attached to trucks to tow something...

There's a fine line between telling too much and not enough. In the prequels, I got far too much dialogue about irrelevant political stuff that didn't seem to have any actual gravity in the grand scheme of people's lives. In the sequels, it's like they're being way too secretive.

I mean, if the plan was to have them trying to find out where Luke Skywalker is, why not have an Indiana Jones style adventure where Kylo Ren's independent group is always one step ahead of them and the heroes are trying to stop the bad guys from getting to Luke to (I assume) kill him?

Add on my knowledge of military tech and I would have thought that an organization that we're led to believe was crushed at Jakku would be using whatever stuff they could scrape together (old ships and stuff).

10 minutes ago, ricefrisbeetreats said:

Add on my knowledge of military tech and I would have thought that an organization that we're led to believe was crushed at Jakku would be using whatever stuff they could scrape together (old ships and stuff).

There is a lot of possibility floating around until they fully explain all the characters. It seems to me when the Empire fled into the unknown region they found a way to fund a new war machine. Starkiller itself would not be cheap, yet they had resources to refit and redesign and establish new forces. Logically Snoke and whatever his connection to all this is seems like the logical source.... The fact that Kylo's weapon was inspired by an ancient saber design leads me to believe Snoke may have been the leader of an already advanced civilization in the unknown regions, and saw the Empire's remnant as a way to expand into the core regions. That may also explain his need for the Jedi to be extinct, as guardians of the republic, if left alive they'd eventually become powerful insurgents against any new power structure he could erect.

Just some loose thoughts there...

5 minutes ago, ricefrisbeetreats said:

I'm not going to bother reading the book, so thanks for the spoiler. I enjoy the movies for the most part, but I'm not interested enough to get into reading the books.

There's my frustration: they have the SSD Eclipse. Why isn't that in the movie then? Why don't they bring up how the First Order is trying to cover over mistakes of the old empire? Why is tow cables such a problem? When I watched Empire Strikes Back and the Hoth Battle, I thought Luke was trying something because the Armor was too strong for their blasters on their snowspeeders. So, they tried using tow cables, ya know, like the cables attached to trucks to tow something...

There's a fine line between telling too much and not enough. In the prequels, I got far too much dialogue about irrelevant political stuff that didn't seem to have any actual gravity in the grand scheme of people's lives. In the sequels, it's like they're being way too secretive.

I mean, if the plan was to have them trying to find out where Luke Skywalker is, why not have an Indiana Jones style adventure where Kylo Ren's independent group is always one step ahead of them and the heroes are trying to stop the bad guys from getting to Luke to (I assume) kill him?

Add on my knowledge of military tech and I would have thought that an organization that we're led to believe was crushed at Jakku would be using whatever stuff they could scrape together (old ships and stuff).

Because I think what they want to do is not give 3 films with stories that have a connection, but basically like a very long film split into 3 parts. I think we will start learning more and more from the FO as episode VIII and IX progress, as well as all other material that is given around that time.

Also, they seem to be very well established in the Unknown regions and keeping this a secret from the audience gets us to the side of the New Republic, because we don't know much more than them about the First Order. In TFA we saw a ship and a base they had. The same is learnt by the New Republic not so much later, the location of Starkiller was known because of Finn. I believe that as he goes undercover, we learn more about them along the protagonists, in addition to the HQ of the FO as Kylo finishes his training with the Supreme Leader.

That's my theory, that they are only allowing us the information that the New Republic also knows.

1 hour ago, ricefrisbeetreats said:

Just how big is the First Order? I always thought they were a small remnant of the old empire that held on after their defeat to the Rebellion. As they get further and further in, they look like a fully funded organization.

The Force Awakens is all over the place. The designs aren't terrible, but I'm still confused why they completely dumped all their old technology instead of refitting it.

This was (one of) my problems with TFA.

The republic won the civil war so is now a galaxy spanning body. Ergo, the First Order is now the outgunned splinter faction.

Yet they have the resources to build a super duper Death Star. And the republic doesn't seem to do the fighting, 'the resistance' does (implying they are the outgunned splinter group like they were in the rebel alliance days.

It makes no sense.

12 minutes ago, Visovics said:

Because I think what they want to do is not give 3 films with stories that have a connection, but basically like a very long film split into 3 parts. I think we will start learning more and more from the FO as episode VIII and IX progress, as well as all other material that is given around that time.

Also, they seem to be very well established in the Unknown regions and keeping this a secret from the audience gets us to the side of the New Republic, because we don't know much more than them about the First Order. In TFA we saw a ship and a base they had. The same is learnt by the New Republic not so much later, the location of Starkiller was known because of Finn. I believe that as he goes undercover, we learn more about them along the protagonists, in addition to the HQ of the FO as Kylo finishes his training with the Supreme Leader.

That's my theory, that they are only allowing us the information that the New Republic also knows.

Wait, we're on the side of the new republic? I thought they were also bad guys...why do they have a resistance then? Or is the resistance the guys who are in First Order space and are fighting against them?

My point being, I have no idea what's gong on, how either of the bad guy organizations (the New Republic is blown up now, though, so we don't have to worry about them, right?) are doing their thing. If the emperor had sent some guys into unknown or wild or uncharted space, they came back and saw that the Empire was wiped out, started the First Order and their main goal was to kill Luke Skywalker who we assume is blamed for the death of the emperor, hey, great! We have motivation. It's a remnant of an old fleet which has another Super Star Destroyer I guess. Use that. Or the new ship from Force Awakens is Kylo Ren's personal ship.

It's just a jumbled mess. I hate the idea that this is part 1 of 3 for movies. Each movie should be a stand alone feature. Yes, they'll be connected, but a good movie should provide you with a beginning, middle and end.

When I walked out of the Force Awakens, someone asked me what I thought. First words, "This movie, whether good or bad, hinges entirely on what they do with the next two movies." That's not exactly a good thing.

4 minutes ago, ricefrisbeetreats said:

Wait, we're on the side of the new republic? I thought they were also bad guys...why do they have a resistance then? Or is the resistance the guys who are in First Order space and are fighting against them?

My point being, I have no idea what's gong on, how either of the bad guy organizations (the New Republic is blown up now, though, so we don't have to worry about them, right?) are doing their thing. If the emperor had sent some guys into unknown or wild or uncharted space, they came back and saw that the Empire was wiped out, started the First Order and their main goal was to kill Luke Skywalker who we assume is blamed for the death of the emperor, hey, great! We have motivation. It's a remnant of an old fleet which has another Super Star Destroyer I guess. Use that. Or the new ship from Force Awakens is Kylo Ren's personal ship.

It's just a jumbled mess. I hate the idea that this is part 1 of 3 for movies. Each movie should be a stand alone feature. Yes, they'll be connected, but a good movie should provide you with a beginning, middle and end.

When I walked out of the Force Awakens, someone asked me what I thought. First words, "This movie, whether good or bad, hinges entirely on what they do with the next two movies." That's not exactly a good thing.

The New Republic is a body of pacific good guys. The resistance is a body of war-like good guys who fight the First Order, who are a body of war-like bad guys who left the Imperial Remnant, the body of pacific bad guys. Make sense?

1 minute ago, ricefrisbeetreats said:

Wait, we're on the side of the new republic? I thought they were also bad guys...why do they have a resistance then? Or is the resistance the guys who are in First Order space and are fighting against them?

My point being, I have no idea what's gong on, how either of the bad guy organizations (the New Republic is blown up now, though, so we don't have to worry about them, right?) are doing their thing. If the emperor had sent some guys into unknown or wild or uncharted space, they came back and saw that the Empire was wiped out, started the First Order and their main goal was to kill Luke Skywalker who we assume is blamed for the death of the emperor, hey, great! We have motivation. It's a remnant of an old fleet which has another Super Star Destroyer I guess. Use that. Or the new ship from Force Awakens is Kylo Ren's personal ship.

It's just a jumbled mess. I hate the idea that this is part 1 of 3 for movies. Each movie should be a stand alone feature. Yes, they'll be connected, but a good movie should provide you with a beginning, middle and end.

When I walked out of the Force Awakens, someone asked me what I thought. First words, "This movie, whether good or bad, hinges entirely on what they do with the next two movies." That's not exactly a good thing.

It was indeed badly explained in the movies, but there a plan of contigency in case the Emperor died, which consisted of bringing all imperial fleets that were hidden in nebulas after the shaterring of the emperor into Jakku, and gather get the brainwashed trainees (which we see the results of in TFA) go with them in a shuttle to the Eclipse in the unknown regions, blow up the entire planet and start anew with the SSD. I may be wrong, but I think that was the contigency plan, also, Jakku had several dark side objects in a sanctuary type cave where the self destruction of the planet would be initiated. It's a crazy read on the 3rd book, but the amount of information on it is worth.

7 minutes ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

The New Republic is a body of pacific good guys. The resistance is a body of war-like good guys who fight the First Order, who are a body of war-like bad guys who left the Imperial Remnant, the body of pacific bad guys. Make sense?

Then why do they have a navy? Shouldn't the resistance have the navy?

8 minutes ago, Visovics said:

It was indeed badly explained in the movies, but there a plan of contigency in case the Emperor died, which consisted of bringing all imperial fleets that were hidden in nebulas after the shaterring of the emperor into Jakku, and gather get the brainwashed trainees (which we see the results of in TFA) go with them in a shuttle to the Eclipse in the unknown regions, blow up the entire planet and start anew with the SSD. I may be wrong, but I think that was the contigency plan, also, Jakku had several dark side objects in a sanctuary type cave where the self destruction of the planet would be initiated. It's a crazy read on the 3rd book, but the amount of information on it is worth.

Ok, ok. I'm kind of being devil's advocate here. I kind of see what they're trying to go for, but in the end, it's just hard to figure out what's happening. As it's been said, Return of the Jedi shows that we won. If you think too long on it, you realize that yeah, blowing up the Death Star probably doesn't win you the war, but you did take out three (Emperor, Vader, and Piett) of the most powerful guys in the Imperial chain of command.

So go to the Force Awakens. It's 30 years after RotJ (correct?) and we're on Jakku, a planet riddled with destroyed ships. The assumption we can make is there was a huge battle there as well.

Nowhere in the films, which is the only medium I care about when it comes to Star Wars content, does it talk about the Empire sneaking off into dark space to build Super Death Star 3 and hiding for 30 years. The movies need to be coherent on their own. At this point, it sounds like it's all speculation and information someone got off the back of a cereal box. If this is information we should know, and from the questions I get on a regular basis it is, they need to show us in the film.

So back to the dreadnought at hand. The design isn't bad. It looks a lot like a fan-made "upgrade" of the ISD. The Monkey AT-ATs are similar.

18 minutes ago, ricefrisbeetreats said:

Then why do they have a navy? Shouldn't the resistance have the navy?

They're pacifistic, not stupid. The navy (which was severely reduced through decommissioning) is used only for home defense and anti-piracy (just 'cause you're at peace doesn't mean you don't need an army). The resistance is not supported financially by the NR, so they have to scrounge what they have, and thus have a navy, but a weak one.

3 minutes ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

They're pacifistic, not stupid. The navy (which was severely reduced through decommissioning) is used only for home defense and anti-piracy (just 'cause you're at peace doesn't mean you don't need an army). The resistance is not supported financially by the NR, so they have to scrounge what they have, and thus have a navy, but a weak one.

Yeah, that's another part that just confuses me. In trying to piece it together, I thought I understood that the First Order and the New Republic kinda just split the galaxy in half and they're both just looking at one another across the no man's land. Eventually, the First Order makes a move, killing 5 planets in the New Republic, but at the time, the New Republic was secretly funding a "resistance" within the First Order controlled systems to undermine their war efforts.

I think the idea is that a small chunk of the Republic publically seceded, calling itself the First Order - and the main Republic, being unwilling to act like AOTC Palpatine - let them secede:

But what the main Republic don't know is - this "public First Order" is only the tip of the iceberg - the Unknown Regions contain most of their real military power and territory.

The Resistance seek to reveal the true nature of the First Order - and get the Republic actively opposing it. Some Republic military figures believe them, and are funnelling ships and fighters to them.

Just now, ricefrisbeetreats said:

Yeah, that's another part that just confuses me. In trying to piece it together, I thought I understood that the First Order and the New Republic kinda just split the galaxy in half and they're both just looking at one another across the no man's land. Eventually, the First Order makes a move, killing 5 planets in the New Republic, but at the time, the New Republic was secretly funding a "resistance" within the First Order controlled systems to undermine their war efforts.

No, the Empire and the New Republic divided the Galaxy and are staring at each other. Then the First Order, an Imperial splinter group, started getting restless, Leia warned the NR, and they ignored her. So she left and formed the Resistance, to counter the moves of the FO and undermine its war efforts without affecting any truces (not being politically affiliated with the NR), and the FO soon after that launched the assault that wiped out the capital system of the NR, along with most of its remaining fleet. We'll see in VIII if the NR is still around as a political entity, if the Empire takes advantage of the destruction to gain ground, and if the FO officially declared itself at war with the galaxy.

1 minute ago, Ironlord said:

I think the idea is that a small chunk of the Empire publically seceded, calling itself the First Order - and the Republic, being unwilling to act like AOTC Palpatine - watched them secede:

But what the Republic don't know is - this "First Order" is only the tip of the iceberg - the Unknown Regions contain most of their real military power and territory.

The Resistance seek to reveal the true nature of the First Order - and get the Republic actively opposing it. Some Republic military figures believe them, and are funnelling ships and fighters to them.

FTFY, more or less. It's a bit more complicated than that.

Post-emperor geopolitical scenario is crazy complicated...

Just now, Visovics said:

Post-emperor geopolitical scenario is crazy complicated...

Even prequel politics made more sense than this. At least to me.

The ship was cool looking until they gave it a bad case of ***** envy (seriously, that's sensored?).

The movies make more sense the more of the novels you read. I think they're leaving a lot of detail out to really help those book sales. The Leia novel I think really tied a lot of the pieces together. Not that it was my favorite book.

13 minutes ago, Battlefleet 01 Studios said:

Even prequel politics made more sense than this. At least to me.

But the prequels had everything explained on screen, Sequel is having a basic unclear show on films and the books coming later explain specific parts that were confusing.

Also, may be crazy hopes, but one thing I'd freak out if it happens is the appearance of the Chiss Navy and an old Thrawn forming an alliance with the resistance, would make me cry in the cinema

8 minutes ago, draco193 said:

The movies make more sense the more of the novels you read. I think they're leaving a lot of detail out to really help those book sales. The Leia novel I think really tied a lot of the pieces together. Not that it was my favorite book.

But that is the problem. Not everyone reads the books nor feels the inclination to do so, particularly people who are just there for the movie. That was what was great about the Originals and even in some ways the Prequels. They didn't really require you to go to great lengths to understand what was happening.

9 minutes ago, draco193 said:

The movies make more sense the more of the novels you read. I think they're leaving a lot of detail out to really help those book sales. The Leia novel I think really tied a lot of the pieces together. Not that it was my favorite book.

The Disney Trilogy makes more sense when you take it for what it is, a soft reboot of the franchise.

It should've been a full reboot, but Disney knew they could cash in on the nostalgia.

Just now, Battlefleet 01 Studios said:

But that is the problem. Not everyone reads the books nor feels the inclination to do so, particularly people who are just there for the movie. That was what was great about the Originals and even in some ways the Prequels. They didn't really require you to go to great lengths to understand what was happening.

I'd say even of star wars fans, those reading all the books are a niche of the rather unniche fanbase. Any lukewarm meh people (like me) wouldn't even consider involving that much time. Making it a multimedia project only reinforces how bad was (kind of like the much lauded RoTS novelization being 'awesome' someone writing hard to frantically polish a turd.)

Just now, Battlefleet 01 Studios said:

But that is the problem. Not everyone reads the books nor feels the inclination to do so, particularly people who are just there for the movie. That was what was great about the Originals and even in some ways the Prequels. They didn't really require you to go to great lengths to understand what was happening.

Yep. Disney though is selling books. They're following their Marvel model. Make sure everything is all tied in together and get folks to purchase and read those novels.