8 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:Confirms what, now?
If anything, it's a vastly LESS competitive game than RWM, with fewer interesting decisions and, IMO, fairly boring gameplay. Most of the fun is the theme. The game itself is pretty standard issue, and the results far too random.
Did you mean to quote me or Kaiju?
So looking over the tabletop market, exactly where do the competitive games with high difficulty, steep learning curve and advanced gameplay succeed?` As compared to the rise of simpler and more accessible new editions?
Before RW, there was a tabletop called Relic Knights that was no luck, all objective based, open information except for a card deck. It died in its infant shoes, simply because only very few people will play (and thus buy) games that require them to play competitively, or at least very hard, every single time.
Beer + Pretzels is how you earn money, earning money is how FFG keeps you supplied with new releases, that is how it always went so far.
3 minutes ago, Glucose98 said:Did you mean to quote me or Kaiju?
Whoops! That's what I get for replying on my phone! Will correct, thanks.
Just now, Kaiju said:So looking over the tabletop market, exactly where do the competitive games with high difficulty, steep learning curve and advanced gameplay succeed?` As compared to the rise of simpler and more accessible new editions?
Before RW, there was a tabletop called Relic Knights that was no luck, all objective based, open information except for a card deck. It died in its infant shoes, simply because only very few people will play (and thus buy) games that require them to play competitively, or at least very hard, every single time.
Beer + Pretzels is how you earn money, earning money is how FFG keeps you supplied with new releases, that is how it always went so far.
Ech. What a distasteful outlook.
Only the homogenous survive?
I guess we will just stop trying to promote games with actual passion behind them in favor of entirely superficial coats of paint over dice rolling simulators.
4 minutes ago, Kaiju said:So looking over the tabletop market, exactly where do the competitive games with high difficulty, steep learning curve and advanced gameplay succeed?` As compared to the rise of simpler and more accessible new editions?
Before RW, there was a tabletop called Relic Knights that was no luck, all objective based, open information except for a card deck. It died in its infant shoes, simply because only very few people will play (and thus buy) games that require them to play competitively, or at least very hard, every single time.
Beer + Pretzels is how you earn money, earning money is how FFG keeps you supplied with new releases, that is how it always went so far.
I mean, Warmahordes has done pretty dang well for itself. It seems to me they're sort of shooting themselves in the foot with a few things right now, but that game is all about pushing the system to the limit and going for the throat.
3 minutes ago, Kaiju said:So looking over the tabletop market, exactly where do the competitive games with high difficulty, steep learning curve and advanced gameplay succeed?` As compared to the rise of simpler and more accessible new editions?
Before RW, there was a tabletop called Relic Knights that was no luck, all objective based, open information except for a card deck. It died in its infant shoes, simply because only very few people will play (and thus buy) games that require them to play competitively, or at least very hard, every single time.
Beer + Pretzels is how you earn money, earning money is how FFG keeps you supplied with new releases, that is how it always went so far.
I think you're vastly overestimating the difficulty of Runewars TMG. Have you played it? My friends picked it up very easily and we've never played miniatures games before besides Xwing/Armada.
Also, won't the barrier to entry for any unpainted miniatures wargame already keep out the casuals who can't wrap their head around the Runewars ruleset? And won't that same barrier apply equally to Legion, no matter how comparatively easy the ruleset is?
9 minutes ago, Contrapulator said:I think you're vastly overestimating the difficulty of Runewars TMG. Have you played it? My friends picked it up very easily and we've never played miniatures games before besides Xwing/Armada.
Also, won't the barrier to entry for any unpainted miniatures wargame already keep out the casuals who can't wrap their head around the Runewars ruleset? And won't that same barrier apply equally to Legion, no matter how comparatively easy the ruleset is?
Yeah, most of the system mastery really comes from knowing what your opponent can do, which a simple printout of their dials helps a great deal with. Once you know what you can do and what they can do, it's pretty much all down to risk management. Good list building and deployment are certainly important, and understanding where the templates will put you (especially in cases like 4-tray wide units) takes some getting used to, but the double-dial system keeps most interactions pretty accessible. A new player will be more likely slow than bad.
I played it, though not the Elves. Its easy to pick up, true, but Legion looks even easier, AND less stressful to play.
Legion is less minis to paint, which is a better access point. Its less complex and more intuitive, which is a better access point. Its Star Wars, which is a MUCH MUCH MUCH superior access point. Its not rank-and-file, something which had almost died out until FFG for some reason wanted to resurrect it, which is a more modern design approach. Its less mind games, which means you need to learn less about your opponents stuff, which is a better access point (ask the lack of new players in warmahordes why having to know the entire relevant models by heart is a problem).
I am not saying RWM is bad. I am saying Legion is better equipped for a competitive modern tabletop marketplace, and since this thread is about the future of the game, I am 100% certain Legion will vastly outperform RWM.
So, now that this is established, I look at FFGs behaviour in the past when it comes to underperforming vs. better performing product lines. And I cant help but notice FFG releases (no surprise here) according to, roughly, a products performance on the market. Legion selling better = Legion getting more and faster releases and press = RWM being comparatively less attractive. This draws gamers away from one, and towards the other.
We have multiple people all over the place saying they will not play both, and (like me) are holding their purchases. Hundreds, even thousands worldwide who do not post here will surely do the same (I know 4 others in Vienna at least), and this will already give a clear sign to FFG that RWM is not earning as much money.
Legion is already booming on preorders and forums. We, the customer base, are giving clear signals that Legion is the more profitable product.
And as such its not only valid to worry about the future of RWM, its a wise decision to hold your horses and see who comes out ahead in terms of support. Because right now NEITHER of these games has anywhere near enough content/product out to be considered a complete game, and we are already seeing a slow-down on RWM announcements (4th faction still missing some releases)
48 minutes ago, Kaiju said:
Beer + Pretzels is how you earn money, earning money is how FFG keeps you supplied with new releases, that is how it always went so far.
To be fair, FFGs only not beer and pretzels mini game is Armada. Even RW is beer and pretzels.
Edited by DarthainKaiju, I agree with everything you said, except for the last bit about updates slowing down. They missed one single update, during gencon, after consistent weekly (sometimes twice per week) updates for the whole year, so I think that's a little premature.
As for the rest, you are correct in your assessment. It's an assessment that has already been made multiple times in this thread alone. I don't expect this to be the last time, either. At least we can hope that this thread will continue to act as a lighting rod for posts like these and keep the rest of the boards clean.
Edited by Contrapulator12 minutes ago, Kaiju said:
Its Star Wars, which is a MUCH MUCH MUCH superior access point *snip* more modern design approach *snip*
*snip*I am 100% certain*snip*
You'll pardon me if I don't take your word for things like this when you sell entirely subjective statements as 100% fact.
1 minute ago, Tvayumat said:You'll pardon me if I don't take your word for things like this when you sell entirely subjective statements as 100% fact.
Of course, though where I live "I am 100% certain" still means I can be wrong. It just means I personally have no doubt about my statements to be true. Which is a difference to saying "It is 100% certain", where I leave out my person. But alas, I personally would prefer not to be so certain of this, but I have been in this situation a few times before, and it has always played out exactly the same. The game which had a higher barrier of entry, an older design approach and/or asked more of its players was the less successful one, usually dying out in relative short order until a new edition, where a dumbing-down approach sometimes managed to re-energize the game.
20 minutes ago, Kaiju said:And as such its not only valid to worry about the future of RWM, its a wise decision to hold your horses and see who comes out ahead in terms of support. Because right now NEITHER of these games has anywhere near enough content/product out to be considered a complete game, and we are already seeing a slow-down on RWM announcements (4th faction still missing some releases)
I'll worry about the future of Rune Wars when they have all the units they've announced, out and in the game play. Before then, you're judging the future WAY too soon. FFG knows what they're doing with this release schedule and I suspect an exponential increase in RuneWars engagement as we get four factions to fight with/against.
Rank and file fantasy games are always going to have less draw than the futuristic ones, or megalithic fanbases like Star Wars.
It's not like FFG will look at Rune Wars sales and say... darn they're not doing as well as Star Wars.... EXACTLY AS WE EXPECTED.... guess we've got to axe it. Too bad it was our internal IP and if the Star Wars license disappears we'll need some fanbase and diversification to stay running.
16 minutes ago, Kaiju said:Of course, though where I live "I am 100% certain" still means I can be wrong. It just means I personally have no doubt about my statements to be true. Which is a difference to saying "It is 100% certain", where I leave out my person. But alas, I personally would prefer not to be so certain of this, but I have been in this situation a few times before, and it has always played out exactly the same. The game which had a higher barrier of entry, an older design approach and/or asked more of its players was the less successful one, usually dying out in relative short order until a new edition, where a dumbing-down approach sometimes managed to re-energize the game.
Good response.
Pardon if my replies come off as irritable. You're not wrong on any count, though I think you're overselling Runewars' complexity.
Legion is dead simple, sure. It's also fairly boring. It's the same old experience players could get with ANY wargame out there.
That, to me, isn't a good thing.
Runewars is complex? I had no idea.
The best games are easy to learn and hard to master. RuneWars fits this description very well and I love it for that, and for how quickly my group of friends picked it up and immersed themselves.
I wish this topic was removed. Can we let it die? Stop being so paranoid please.
The OP can ask FFGJosh to close the post. This thread seems to be going circular at this point.
On 8/28/2017 at 0:48 PM, Darthain said:To be fair, FFGs only not beer and pretzels mini game is Armada. Even RW is beer and pretzels.
I'm confused, what's wrong with beer and pretzels? I love beer and pretzels...
3 minutes ago, Curlycross said:I'm confused, what's wrong with beer and pretzels? I love beer and pretzels...
I too enjoy copious beer.
Nothing at all wrong, just slotting them into the wide world of wargames and their relative difficulties.
Just now, Darthain said:I too enjoy copious beer.
Nothing at all wrong, just slotting them into the wide world of wargames and their relative difficulties.
I would love to play anything that's slotted with beer and pretzels.
Clearly, you gentlemen are not familiar with the rule of the Inebriati
Everything in life, no matter how complex or difficult, is made easier after approximately 1.5 drinks. Much higher, and you pass out of the goldilocks zone.
When I play medieval games I drink. It's like a given!
Cheers!
1 minute ago, Ywingscum said:When I play medieval games I drink. It's like a given!
Cheers!
I'd almost call the Runebound setting more of a Fantasy Post-Apocalypse, which also involves drinking as much as possible, so it works.
1 hour ago, Ywingscum said:When I play medieval games I drink. It's like a given!
Cheers!
Hopefully out of a horn? I certainly do!