Can I activate the Armed Station (used in the Base Defense: Armed Station and Independent Station objectives) when it has no obvious target? In other words, can I use the Armed Station as a "delay" activation?

The Corellian Conflict campaign booklet states "stations are treated as ships when resolving effects". Does this also meant they follow the normal attack sequence, and therefore you can choose to activate it, check range, be out of range and then pass your activation to your opponent?

I believe this is correct, as to rule against activating the Armed Station in this manner breaks the game's fundamental mechanics. However, my opponent says this is either illegal, or at least against the rules as intended, and won't allow the station to be used in this manner without it clearly being spelled out in the rules or an official FAQ.

Can you help me find a place in the rules that clearly supports my case? I showed him the Attack Sequence on page 2 of the Rules Reference book but this did not meet his criteria. Thank you!

To safe you some time I will said that you just need to check steps 1 and 2 of the attack.

"Activate" the station.

Choose a target.

Check line of sight.

Gather dice according to attack range.

Oops! No dice but who cares?

Your turn.

Don't care about the quoted thread. I remembered it wrongly. It was not the same debate.

But I think what I said is still relevant. Range is something measured after the attack actually started.

It can be confusing cause premeasuring is allowed but is not a "valid" measurement in order to resolve an attack.

32 minutes ago, Yipe said:

Can you help me find a place in the rules that clearly supports my case? I showed him the Attack Sequence on page 2 of the Rules Reference book but this did not meet his criteria. Thank you!

I suggest only this:

You have shown him evidence and he has refused it.

Now, challenge him to find the evidence that supports his position.

...

Then even if he does. (which, honestly, he won't) - Refuse it.

Ask him how that feels.

...

Because I am a prick.

...

Honestly, if you cannot use the station in that way, there is no point to the station. There are no rules that state it has to wait until the end after all ships have activated, it just activates and shoots at the closest enemy, and the attack rules effectively state that that can and will happen even if there enemy is not in range . You need to activate, to attack to even find out if you ARE in range .

Remember, you can eyeball it, and you can even hold a range ruler over it. But the rules tell you when to actually measure something , and you need to have activated to be able to officalliy measure for an attack .

1 hour ago, Yipe said:

However, my opponent says this is either illegal, or at least against the rules as intended, and won't allow the station to be used in this manner without it clearly being spelled out in the rules or an official FAQ.

I mean... what does he think is the point of that station then? It's already probably the weakest of the three base defense objectives. Compare the value of one activation delay (and maybe two shots of unmodified 2r/2bu) to forty extra points of squadrons, or a nearly-unavoidable 4bu + special crit effect every turn .

41 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Remember, you can eyeball it, and you can even hold a range ruler over it. But the rules tell you when to actually measure something , and you need to have activated to be able to officalliy measure for an attack .

Does it?

Quote

Premeasuring

• Players can measure with either side of the range ruler at any time.

6 minutes ago, DacoTrilar said:

Does it?

You can measure, but the attack also tells you to measure. If you don't measure then, you have not measured for the attack, and you cannot progress

The reason to be pedantic about it, is to stop things like this:

"Roll dice for the attack."

"I did before, they're over here, see."

Because the rules don't say you can't roll dice at anytime, right?

Its stupid, its a slippery slope, its a strawman, but I've seen it argued .

So you need to follow, especially the attack progression pedantically to avoid falling into rules loops or holes.

In order to attack, you do not need to have measured, and can choose any target (as modified to 'the closest' as required, so of course, you have to have measured to know which is the closest, but you are still measuring anyway for this attack) , even if it is feasably in range or not.

Then you measure for that attack. If that attack is out, then you gather no appropriate dice for the attack, and the attack cancels as per the rules .

19 minutes ago, DacoTrilar said:

Does it?

Yes. The RRG tells you to affirmatively measure range during the attack to determine what dice to throw, whether the attack is cancelled, and so forth.

It also tells you that you may permissively measure at any time.

These are not mutually exclusive.

1 hour ago, DacoTrilar said:

Does it?

As you quote: that is the premeasuring rule.

The rules explicitly point to measuring and premeasuring as different things.

To perform an attack with a squadron or ship, resolve the
following steps:
1. Declare Target : The attacker declares the defender and the attacking hull zone, if any. If the defender is a ship, the attacker declares the defending hull zone. Measure
line of sight to the defender to ensure the attack is possible and to determine if it is obstructed.
◊ If the attacker is a ship, the defending squadron or hull zone must be inside the attacking hull zone’s firing arc and at attack range of the attacking hull zone.

Gentlemen,

Thank you for the replies and in-put, it is much appreciated. I would say I agree with your assessment, but that would imply a level of subjectivity that doesn't exist here. The station can clearly be activated without requiring a target to be within range.

Sadly, I doubt my opponent will agree without an explicit "official ruling" from FFG. Therefore, I emailed the FFG Rules Team. Hopefully they will get back to me before 2018

4 hours ago, Yipe said:

Can I activate the Armed Station (used in the Base Defense: Armed Station and Independent Station objectives) when it has no obvious target? In other words, can I use the Armed Station as a "delay" activation?

The Corellian Conflict campaign booklet states "stations are treated as ships when resolving effects". Does this also meant they follow the normal attack sequence, and therefore you can choose to activate it, check range, be out of range and then pass your activation to your opponent?

I believe this is correct, as to rule against activating the Armed Station in this manner breaks the game's fundamental mechanics. However, my opponent says this is either illegal, or at least against the rules as intended, and won't allow the station to be used in this manner without it clearly being spelled out in the rules or an official FAQ.

Can you help me find a place in the rules that clearly supports my case? I showed him the Attack Sequence on page 2 of the Rules Reference book but this did not meet his criteria. Thank you!

Of course you can activate, even if there isn't anything in range.

Is it a requirement for ships that there be something in range for them to activate?

No.

What utter rubbish.

3 hours ago, DacoTrilar said:

Does it?

It does.

Premeasuring and measuring attack range isn't the same thing.

1 hour ago, Yipe said:

Gentlemen,

Thank you for the replies and in-put, it is much appreciated. I would say I agree with your assessment, but that would imply a level of subjectivity that doesn't exist here. The station can clearly be activated without requiring a target to be within range.

Sadly, I doubt my opponent will agree without an explicit "official ruling" from FFG. Therefore, I emailed the FFG Rules Team. Hopefully they will get back to me before 2018

I don't see the subjectivity. It is the procedure of the attack.

I can declare any ship as target since the beginning. It is not until I measure (while attacking) that I cannot gather dice and the attack is canceled.

Premeasuring helps me but I must measure when attacking no matter if I premeasured previously.

It is the official rule. Provided by FFG. A FAQ could clarify it or overwrite it but that is the thing, is your friend who needs a FAQ to proof his ruling. Until then the station can "activates" no matter if there is nothing to shoot.

1 minute ago, ovinomanc3r said:

I don't see the subjectivity. It is the procedure of the attack.

I can declare any ship as target since the beginning. It is not until I measure (while attacking) that I cannot gather dice and the attack is canceled.

Premeasuring helps me but I must measure when attacking no matter if I premeasured previously.

It is the official rule. Provided by FFG. A FAQ could clarify it or overwrite it but that is the thing, is your friend who needs a FAQ to proof his ruling. Until then the station can "activates" no matter if there is nothing to shoot.

Yep, and its in his advantage for you to do so - that is, activate it early. Since it can sputter at all Squadrons at range, its useful for him to have you activate it early, and *then* send in bombers uncontested.

12 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

I don't see the subjectivity. It is the procedure of the attack.

My apologies for trying to be overly clever - I was unclear. I meant there is no subjective "agreement" here on my part. It is obviously a fact - whether anyone agrees with it or not - that a ship and/or station can be activated without any targets in range. It's clearly stated in the rules and therefore doesn't require me to agree for it to be true. Of course, I am having a difficult time convincing my opponent. He feels I am "interpreting the rules" one way and is free to interpret them another. This, however, is not it a gray area as far as my limited understanding of Armada goes.

My opponent's answer was this: If you activate the station and it doesn't have a target in range, you must then activate a ship immediately after. I tried to argue how this is flawed and is fundamentally against the core rules of the game (e.g. would you say the same about a ship at speed 0 that is clearly out of range of any targets?), but to no avail.

So, he demands you provide rules, while making up his own?

2 minutes ago, Yipe said:

My apologies for trying to be overly clever - I was unclear. I meant there is no subjective "agreement" here on my part. It is obviously a fact - whether anyone agrees with it or not - that a ship and/or station can be activated without any targets in range. It's clearly stated in the rules and therefore doesn't require me to agree for it to be true. Of course, I am having a difficult time convincing my opponent. He feels I am "interpreting the rules" one way and is free to interpret them another. This, however, is not it a gray area as far as my limited understanding of Armada goes.

My opponent's answer was this: If you activate the station and it doesn't have a target in range, you must then activate a ship immediately after. I tried to argue how this is flawed and is fundamentally against the core rules of the game (e.g. would you say the same about a ship at speed 0 that is clearly out of range of any targets?), but to no avail.

Show him this from the FAQ

Colonel Jendon can resolve his effect
if he is not engaged or is unable to
perform an attack due to some other
effect.

If it doesn't work ask him for the meaning of instead.

If it doesn't work tell him he must activate all his ships until he shot with one of them.

5 minutes ago, Yipe said:

If you activate the station and it doesn't have a target in range, you must then activate a ship immediately after .

I'd love to see textual support for this.

May I ask for your friend's name? Ben maybe?

Just joking

'Tis the world I live in, yes. I think it's a holdover mindset from playing a previous miniatures-based game that, shall we say, didn't have the tightest rule set. Still, I'm trying to be understanding and remain positive, providing my fact-based argument in a polite, respectful way.

2 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

I'd love to see textual support for this.

Ben says it's so.

That's more potent than the written word.

3 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Show him this from the FAQ

Colonel Jendon can resolve his effect
if he is not engaged or is unable to
perform an attack due to some other
effect.

Thank you, this is quite helpful!

3 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

May I ask for your friend's name? Ben maybe?

A classic joke (you see what I did there ). Alas, no need to name names.

This individual was in my previous CC campaign but is moving on to run his own campaign for a group of beginners. I'm trying to help him and some of the new players in his group have a better understanding of the rules before they embark on their adventures in Armada. I want all of them to have an enjoyable experience with a game I've come to love, and I feel misplaying fundamental aspects of the game could lead them to have a negative opinion of Armada.

I'd say you can always get to the "Declare a Target" with the station.

If he's a jerk, always do it and declare the furthest target. Then say "Ok here I will measure...oh look at that...I'm out of range...your activation."

4 minutes ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

If he's a jerk, always do it and declare the furthest target . Then say "Ok here I will measure...oh look at that...I'm out of range...your activation."

I disagree.

Always declare to the closest target that is still out of range . Then spend 10 minutes measuring very carefully, just to be sure.

But in seriousness, OP, it sounds like you've just got a player carrying over a different game's mindset here. I think the Jendon FAQ is your best bet, assuming you follow the logic for why it applies.