Hi,

I'm here via the Beasts of War coverage and a tabletop gamer (albeit more the painting than playing side at the moment). I have no background with Fantasy Flight games other than having occasionally looked at X Wing and Imperial Assault but not made a purchase.

It's been really interesting reading the forum on Legion (positive and negative) largely because there seems to be some misconceptions about what Legion is aiming for.

This is 100% an attempt to grab a slice of the miniature wargaming market - that's why there will be no pre-paints and why there is no crossover with other games from FFG.

Prepainted minis simply do not exist in any tabletop wargame that I'm aware of - yes, some people commission people to paint for them, but that's very much the exception. Building, painting and customising minis is a huge part of the hobby for 99.9% of tabletop gamers - the people that Legion is aimed at.

It is interesting that they've chosen 32mm for the minis, it would be more usual to have 28mm. I think there are two reasons for this: 40k minis are more like 32mm (esp. Space Marines) and it's going to be a little easier for people new to the hobby to get to grips with painting. As a side note, Stormtroopers are going to be harder to paint well than you might think.

32mm is a 'size' rather than a scale (i.e. the minis are not in true proportion to actual people). The most applicable scale for vehicles is going to be 1:48 and that's likely what you'll see. The one surprise is that AT-ATs seem unlikely to be in the game, but anything like X-Wings or TIE fighters will likely to be smaller (1/72) to get them on the tabletop and reflect the fact they're up in the air.

The only things that I'm slightly wary of are: the cards (unusual for tabletop gaming other than as a reference) and how they sell the minis. I expect to see themed packs for 'command' e.g. Han, Leia, Luke, Chewie on Endor as one pack and boxes of generic troops e.g. a box of 20-30 Stormtroopers with assembly/weapon options. If that's the case I'm all in, if we start seeing 'fiddly' options for putting a force together I might buy some packs to paint but likely not invest in the game as a whole.

So, I'm excited overall with a few reservations. I do think some people with concerns would do well to look at some tabletop gaming sights for a better understanding of what this game will be all about.

13 hours ago, tuco74 said:

This is 100% an attempt to grab a slice of the miniature wargaming market - that's why there will be no pre-paints and why there is no crossover with other games from FFG.

Prepainted minis simply do not exist in any tabletop wargame that I'm aware of - yes, some people commission people to paint for them, but that's very much the exception. Building, painting and customising minis is a huge part of the hobby for 99.9% of tabletop gamers - the people that Legion is aimed at.

It's no longer around but Mage Knight and Mech warrior dark ages, both from Wizkids had prepainted minis.

They came in collecatbel booster boxes :

And Mage Knight even had some prepainted terrain:

Oh man I loved playing with the Mech Warrior minis when I was younger. I remember playing Mech Warrior 3 and Mercs, and then going to the game store and watching people play with these mechs in tournaments.

Hi Tuco!

Ive been playing Gw games for nearly 20 years now and Fantasy Flight Games for More like 7.

Games Workshop has definately set itself up as a miniatures company now; the gaming is consequential of them being a miniatures company first and foremost.

Fantasy Flight however is the other way round; Gaming comes first. I was however astounded at the detail on the x wing and armada miniatures and how good they were as pre paints. Anyway...

Fantasy Flights marketing strategy is really sound. I kept up with all the x wing releases for a long time because of there drip feed and long lead time/advertising time approach. Which means I prepared for purchases whereas gw have gone a lot more now/impulsive, which I'm not sure how well will work for big kits.

However, with the knight titans gw have proved that there is a market for big miniatures like the At-At. If the chixkenwalker sells well from wave 1, I'd expect that to be green lighted for development.

Fantasy Flights bookkeeping on these games is a little too much for me. A lot of cards can make it easier but, it's still too much for all these upgrades. However I learnt that generally taking plenty of upgrades isn't as much fun as the odd one or two in favour of more models on the board (x wing/armada experience)

I have a few imperial assault minis and they are poorly proportioned (take a look at hans hands; power fist sized!) so the re sculpts for this seem justified. Also, the detail looks to be more impressive than Imperial assault and your right Tuco; ffg is stepping into the wargaming industry and away from board games with this one. That means sales for them as people buy 10, 20, 100 stormtroopers rather than a single y wing, a single a wing, a single b wing etc like collectors. This can be very lucrative for them.

amyway the demo games on YouTube look good and I'm excited for tjis release!

14 hours ago, tuco74 said:

Stormtroopers are going to be harder to paint well than you might think

Tell me about it, lol. IA also comes with unpainted figures and the Stormtroopers are probably the hardest to get right.

14 hours ago, tuco74 said:

The only things that I'm slightly wary of are: the cards (unusual for tabletop gaming other than as a reference) and how they sell the minis.

I'm new to wargaming, myself but have always been interested and wanted to get into it. I think the cards are because wargaming is fairly new to a lot of their established audience as well as to FFG. It's kind of a transition from what we are used to. "You've taken your first step into a larger world"

14 hours ago, tuco74 said:

I do think some people with concerns would do well to look at some tabletop gaming sights for a better understanding of what this game will be all about.

Agree 100%. A lot of people seem to think this is Imperial Assault 2nd edition, and that could not be further from the truth.

I know Flames of War has gone to the card mechanic for units and certain things in their new edition. It just released a month ago or so, so not sure how well its been received but thats another AAA TT game that does it.

I'm mostly a WW2 wargamer. You don't have to go far to discover historical wargamers who end up drawing their own cards for unit info to keep it handy. FFG starting with cards is going to be totally fine.

12 hours ago, Kerfuffin said:

I know Flames of War has gone to the card mechanic for units and certain things in their new edition. It just released a month ago or so, so not sure how well its been received but thats another AAA TT game that does it.

Yeah, I probably overstated on this point. Card mechanics are becoming more popular in wargaming and there some obvious examples. The main thing that concerns me about Legion is the prospect of being reliant on particular cards to be able to play a particular unit or use a particular ability. If that's the case I'll probably buy to paint rather than play.

13 hours ago, Robin Graves said:

It's no longer around but Mage Knight and Mech warrior dark ages, both from Wizkids had prepainted minis.

So had AT-43. What do all these games have in common? They are out of production!

On 8/23/2017 at 4:50 AM, tuco74 said:

Hi,

I'm here via the Beasts of War coverage and a tabletop gamer (albeit more the painting than playing side at the moment). I have no background with Fantasy Flight games other than having occasionally looked at X Wing and Imperial Assault but not made a purchase.

It's been really interesting reading the forum on Legion (positive and negative) largely because there seems to be some misconceptions about what Legion is aiming for.

This is 100% an attempt to grab a slice of the miniature wargaming market - that's why there will be no pre-paints and why there is no crossover with other games from FFG.

Prepainted minis simply do not exist in any tabletop wargame that I'm aware of - yes, some people commission people to paint for them, but that's very much the exception. Building, painting and customising minis is a huge part of the hobby for 99.9% of tabletop gamers - the people that Legion is aimed at.

It is interesting that they've chosen 32mm for the minis, it would be more usual to have 28mm. I think there are two reasons for this: 40k minis are more like 32mm (esp. Space Marines) and it's going to be a little easier for people new to the hobby to get to grips with painting. As a side note, Stormtroopers are going to be harder to paint well than you might think.

32mm is a 'size' rather than a scale (i.e. the minis are not in true proportion to actual people). The most applicable scale for vehicles is going to be 1:48 and that's likely what you'll see. The one surprise is that AT-ATs seem unlikely to be in the game, but anything like X-Wings or TIE fighters will likely to be smaller (1/72) to get them on the tabletop and reflect the fact they're up in the air.

The only things that I'm slightly wary of are: the cards (unusual for tabletop gaming other than as a reference) and how they sell the minis. I expect to see themed packs for 'command' e.g. Han, Leia, Luke, Chewie on Endor as one pack and boxes of generic troops e.g. a box of 20-30 Stormtroopers with assembly/weapon options. If that's the case I'm all in, if we start seeing 'fiddly' options for putting a force together I might buy some packs to paint but likely not invest in the game as a whole.

So, I'm excited overall with a few reservations. I do think some people with concerns would do well to look at some tabletop gaming sights for a better understanding of what this game will be all about.

Alex Davy, the main developer of the game, has said that Stormtroopers will come 7 to a box at around $25 US, if you want an idea on how the release for the game will be set up just look to Rune Wars. We will probably end up getting one new commander per wave, with a few other units to help round out armies, with expansions most likely ranging between $15 to $40, it depends on how much they want to sell commanders or heavy units at.

43 minutes ago, tuco74 said:

Yeah, I probably overstated on this point. Card mechanics are becoming more popular in wargaming and there some obvious examples. The main thing that concerns me about Legion is the prospect of being reliant on particular cards to be able to play a particular unit or use a particular ability. If that's the case I'll probably buy to paint rather than play.

The game will require you to have the cards to play the units for tournaments, as do all the other FFG games. For casual play though it shouldn't be an issue to print out cards or proxy stuff. Hopefully this game will be like Rune Wars since from what I hear they give the upgrades and the like that you need in both factions packs so you only need to buy one faction, whereas X-Wing and Armada has a bit of a bad habit of releasing upgrades that might be useful for one faction in another faction's releases which facilitates people generally buying 1 of each new release if not more to get what they need.

yea this is the best and worst for one reason... painting white. White really is the hardest color to paint to get right. The upside is, once you've mastered painting white, everything else is easy peasy lemon squeezy. Pro-tip for painting white from a guy whos painted 3 armies white. Thin you paint down and do 3-4 coats minimum.

I tend to just build my list online (X-Wing) and print it out, crossing off items as I go. The cards are a great organizational tool and overall I much prefer that system to having a Core rulebook with many Army books ( looking at you, WH). If at any point, I feel as if I need to purchase redundant or unwanted miniatures for their attached cards, I will instead find them on Ebay or print my own.

Moving more and more information to cards is vastly more beneficial than constantly flipping through the book(s) to find it. It also helps to eliminate time too.

Pre-painted miniatures can be fine, but it feels like way too people think they will get X Wing quality ones at a cheap price point. Most didn't seem to have bothered picking up Armada despite its pre-painted miniatures probably because of the cost vs quantity issue. This exact same issue would have happened in Legion too. I doubt people would have bothered with this game if you got 10 or fewer infantry miniatures pre-painted for $100 or the current contents for between $150 and $200 with single miniatures costing between $15 and $60. This is going by armada or x-wing pricing.

Some might say that Wizkids does pre-painted with 3 or so miniatures a pack (Or whatever the single miniature pack is). My problem with Wizkids is that the pre-painted job and their minaitures sculpts are generally terrible.

1 hour ago, Jester8908 said:

I tend to just build my list online (X-Wing) and print it out, crossing off items as I go.

The force cards will need to be exhausted and readied, so they're not one shot items like many X-Wing, they'll function more like in Armada. So while you can likely get by without them in casual games, you'll likely need them on the table in any sort of official event.

battletech is one miniature game i never had the pleasure of playing. I never even knew the wargaming hobby was a thing until i was 20 (im 29), so my youth playing MW2 like crazy had no idea it was based on a miniwargame.

Wish i could have tried it but i havnt even SEEN anyone use it lol

4 minutes ago, VanorDM said:

The force cards will need to be exhausted and readied, so they're not one shot items like many X-Wing, they'll function more like in Armada. So while you can likely get by without them in casual games, you'll likely need them on the table in any sort of official event.

A Exhausted-Token will do the job great for a private game.

2 minutes ago, The Bishop said:

A Exhausted-Token will do the job great for a private game.

Sure, and may even work at local tournaments and the like. But past that you'll likely need the cards, at least the ones you have to exhaust and.or discard. But I hope that FFG does it in Legion like they do in RW and you don't have to chase the upgrade cards like you do in X-Wing.

I’m going imperial and I haven’t decided what I’m going to do with the painting the Storm Troopers.

One option is I might make them black storm troopers like was in Rogue 1. These ones just have slightly different armor, but I think they would look good.

Another is to just grit it out and paint both squads. Going slow and doing it right and using the thinned paint, and multiple layers isn’t ideal, but in reality, how many storm troopers are you going to need 3 squads at max perhaps?

5 minutes ago, VanorDM said:

Sure, and may even work at local tournaments and the like. But past that you'll likely need the cards, at least the ones you have to exhaust and.or discard. But I hope that FFG does it in Legion like they do in RW and you don't have to chase the upgrade cards like you do in X-Wing.

I think I read somewhere they committed to the RMW model, and all neutral upgrade cards would be duplicated in the wave.

Just now, Hawktel said:

I think I read somewhere they committed to the RMW model, and all neutral upgrade cards would be duplicated in the wave.

Would be nice but I haven't seen that said officially... I think it's much more likely they will, because a X-Wing style upgrade system will drive away some of the people they're hoping to attract with this game.

1 minute ago, VanorDM said:

Would be nice but I haven't seen that said officially... I think it's much more likely they will, because a X-Wing style upgrade system will drive away some of the people they're hoping to attract with this game.

to be fair they never officially stated it for RWM either, just in an interview which is where it came from. And its happening for RWM

1 minute ago, Vineheart01 said:

to be fair they never officially stated it for RWM either, just in an interview which is where it came from.

But have they actually said that about Legion? I've heard a few people say they read it somewhere or saw it somewhere, but no one can seem to remember where. It's very easy to believe something you want to be true... But unless someone like Alex says it, then we'll have to wait and see.

On ‎8‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 4:50 AM, tuco74 said:

The only things that I'm slightly wary of are: the cards (unusual for tabletop gaming other than as a reference) and how they sell the minis.

Flames of War has cards for the miniatures and the video on BoW right now on the Afrika Korps playthrough shows them. IMHO, I rather have cards than flipping through a 200pg rule book looking for some obscure table. Everything is right there in front of you.

20 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

battletech is one miniature game i never had the pleasure of playing. I never even knew the wargaming hobby was a thing until i was 20 (im 29), so my youth playing MW2 like crazy had no idea it was based on a miniwargame.

Wish i could have tried it but i havnt even SEEN anyone use it lol

Catalyst Game Labs own the BattleTech License. They announced at GenCon50 a new starter set and new Combat set that will be released in 2018. Yes, however, the game does not have a lot of players as it used to have in the 80s. Most have moved onto more modern games with more modern rule sets. BattleTech is one of those games that you need a large rule book to play.

16 minutes ago, TurboCooler said:

Flames of War has cards for the miniatures and the video on BoW right now on the Afrika Korps playthrough shows them. IMHO, I rather have cards than flipping through a 200pg rule book looking for some obscure table. Everything is right there in front of you.

Yeah, and cards as reference is fine by me because that's just a choice between a quick reference or flipping through the book (or printing out an army list). But having cards that you need to 'collect' in order to play...I'm less keen on that, especially if they're used as a means to force you to buy miniatures as seems to be the case with X-Wing. It's not a deal breaker, just something I'm less keen on.