1 hour ago, Jeff Wilder said:

We've gone 'round on this before, but there is a vast gulf between "a nerf to AdvSLAM" and what was done, which effectively kills the K-wing as a bomber (and thus kills all K-wings except Miranda). As FGD points out, it maybe doesn't kill AdvSLAM completely, because, hey, the new hotness might have a use for it, even though K-wings will not.

I will genuinely never understand why anyone is ever in favor of a change that effectively kills an entire ship class's generics.

Except that's completely ridiculous and not true? Missile wardens with LRS, autoblaster and action bombs have been good since they were released, and great after Sabine was released and clusters were fixed. They're only going to be improved now that you can replace the homing missiles with harpoons. A pair of them covered by Biggs have a crazy good three stage joust (missile, then ABT, then bomb on the way past). Anything you block facing vaguely the right direction is taking an action bomb next round, and they're hypermobile blockers because they have SLAM, the best reposition in the game even without advanced SLAM.

Sure, they have bad matchups - Super Dash is a challenge, and TL stripping mechanics are frustrating, but so too does every list. Took me to top 8 at a regional and would have taken me higher if not for silly errors on my part at the end of the day.

Sure, the triple Advanced SLAM K Wing archetype is gone. But the Warden remains probably the best generic missile platform in the game and will still be a perfectly competent bomber (just not insane like Nym). The sky will not fall.

1 hour ago, Jeff Wilder said:

I will genuinely never understand why anyone is ever in favor of a change that effectively kills an entire ship class's generics.

Because it is only be dead because people let it. It still has potential. It's still is better than most of the competition.

4 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Because it is only be dead because people let it. It still has potential. It's still is better than most of the competition.

Just like our last discussion on Soontir right?

Speaking of which, I fielded Soontir many times against Nym lists now and he's doing crazy well. He just needs a reliable buddy to finish off Nym while he finishes off the rest. After all, the Baron just laughs off incoming TLT shots.

Just now, Grivoire said:

Just like our last discussion on Soontir right?

Speaking of which, I fielded Soontir many times against Nym lists now and he's doing crazy well. He just needs a reliable buddy to finish off Nym while he finishes off the rest. After all, the Baron just laughs off incoming TLT shots.

How far you been taking the good Baron?

1 minute ago, SabineKey said:

How far you been taking the good Baron?

How far are people taking pre-nerf Wardens?

How far will people take post-nerf Wardens?

("Nowhere," and "nowhere, ever.")

3 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

How far are people taking pre-nerf Wardens?

How far will people take post-nerf Wardens?

("Nowhere," and "nowhere, ever.")

Sooo, you are basically saying that the nerf actually doesn't have that big of an affect on the Wardens, therefore no harm done. Care to rephrase?

Also, care to comment on @MacchuWA's suggestion of turning them into missile boats?

1 minute ago, Jeff Wilder said:

How far are people taking pre-nerf Wardens?

How far will people take post-nerf Wardens?

("Nowhere," and "nowhere, ever.")

This is very untrue sir, at least for the first part. Sable Gryphon's Triple K-wing bomber list (tastefully named "Galaxy Note 7") did 6-2 in worlds 2016 and almost made it to the top 32 list.

It's not that they are not good, people simply don't use them anymore when newer wave arrives. The fact that K-wings are as rare as unicorns doesn't help the situation either.

Post-nerf, as everybody said both PS2 and PS4 K-wing will be a good missile carrier thanks to long range scanners. Especially considering that triple jumps will no longer exists after the 1-2 nerf punch on Jumpmaster chassis + Attanni nerf. Triple scurrg will lose out simply because they have lower PS.

14 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

How far you been taking the good Baron?

Casually, I've done tens of games both IRL and Vassal. Competitively, we just lost our only TO in the region and doesn't seem like we're gonna find a replacement soon. Until then, playing against the reigning champions will be my only bet to test the viability of Soontir. :/

8 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Sooo, you are basically saying that the nerf actually doesn't have that big of an affect on the Wardens, therefore no harm done. Care to rephrase?

Also, care to comment on @MacchuWA's suggestion of turning them into missile boats?

No, I don't care to rephrase. My entire point is that a kilo-ton nuke of a ship that isn't doing anything anyway is flat-out stupid.

The only way they will be even theoretically capable as missile boats is when flown in formation with Biggs. Good luck with that once Harpoon Missiles are in circulation.

1 minute ago, Jeff Wilder said:

No, I don't care to rephrase. My entire point is that a kilo-ton nuke of a ship that isn't doing anything anyway is flat-out stupid.

The only way they will be even theoretically capable as missile boats is when flown in formation with Biggs. Good luck with that once Harpoon Missiles are in circulation.

I disagree. I've told you in length why I think this is a good move (maybe not the best, but good). It's a step towards freeing up a whole archetype and brings it in line with the rest of its bombing brethren. That last reason is the same as what was thrown around to justify the x7 and Palp nerf, which I have seen make generics disappear. So, unless you can give me a really good reason why K-Wings should be head and shoulders above pretty much every other Bomber (minus Nym), then we might as well end this conversation. I have found none of your arguments compelling and you obviously haven't found mine compelling either, so we might as well save our breath (metaphorically speaking) on a subject we have such wildly different opinions on.

16 minutes ago, Grivoire said:

Casually, I've done tens of games both IRL and Vassal. Competitively, we just lost our only TO in the region and doesn't seem like we're gonna find a replacement soon. Until then, playing against the reigning champions will be my only bet to test the viability of Soontir. :/

Sorry to hear that. Hope y'all get a new TO soon.

Thank you for catching me up. I honestly look forward to any other updates and wish you luck in your endevours.

18 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

I disagree. I've told you in length why I think this is a good move (maybe not the best, but good).

Yes. You were wrong then, you're wrong now. It's a stupid, clumsy move, with absolutely no foreseeable benefit. It has nothing but downside. (It is entirely possible to actually weaken AdvSLAM without nerfing it into oblivion. But nerfing it into oblivion is entirely in line with FFG's horrible record on "fixing" ships. At this point, them doing it is expected. People still supporting it is just ... weird.)

Quote

It's a step towards freeing up a whole archetype

No, it's not. It's a step sideways, at absolute best. There are, at this point, at least six things holding low-HP ships down in the meta.

Quote

and brings it in line with the rest of its bombing brethren.

Does it? Brings it right in line with those 3-turning and 4-straight TIE Bombers, does it?

Quote

That last reason is the same as what was thrown around to justify the x7 and Palp nerf, which I have seen make generics disappear.

What in the ... what are you talking about? What generics disappeared? Glaives? Deltas? All Defenders disappeared, and it's not because of the x7 nerf. Jesus, at this point I don't even know if you're trolling me.

Quote

So, unless you can give me a really good reason why K-Wings should be head and shoulders above pretty much every other Bomber

Well, let's see. The Warden, at PS 2, costs 7 more points than the Scimitar at PS 2. The Guardian, at PS 4, costs 6 more points than the Gamma Vet, at PS 5. I can't quite put my finger on why the K-wing should be better. It's a real mystery.

Quote

you obviously haven't found mine compelling either, so we might as well save our breath (metaphorically speaking) on a subject we have such wildly different opinions on.

We have wildly different opinions because mine are based in empirical evidence, and yours are based in ... feelings? Whimsy? Are you one of those people that just hates the way the K-wing looks? (That would actually be more understandable than any other "argument" you've presented.) I honestly don't know.

2 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Yes. You were wrong then, you're wrong now. It's a stupid, clumsy move, with absolutely no foreseeable benefit. It has nothing but downside. (It is entirely possible to actually weaken AdvSLAM without nerfing it into oblivion. But nerfing it into oblivion is entirely in line with FFG's horrible record on "fixing" ships. At this point, them doing it is expected. People still supporting it is just ... weird.)

No, it's not. It's a step sideways, at absolute best. There are, at this point, at least six things holding low-HP ships down in the meta.

Does it? Brings it right in line with those 3-turning and 4-straight TIE Bombers, does it?

What in the ... what are you talking about? What generics disappeared? Glaives? Deltas? All Defenders disappeared, and it's not because of the x7 nerf. Jesus, at this point I don't even know if you're trolling me.

Well, let's see. The Warden, at PS 2, costs 7 more points than the Scimitar at PS 2. That guardian, at PS 4, costs 6 more points than the Gamma Vet, at PS 5. I can't quite put my finger on why the K-wing should be better. It's a real mystery.

We have wildly different opinions because mine are based in empirical evidence, and yours are based in ... feelings? Whimsy? Are you one of those people that just hates the way the K-wing looks? (That would actually be more understandable than any other "argument" you've presented.) I honestly don't know.

I'd retort, but I see it would be a waste of time.

For Wardens it's likely irrelevant. You'll see the same number of Wardens after the nerf as before (zero).

For Miranda it's somewhat relevant, as she has to replace Adv. SLAM with EI. As Miranda is currently the best ship in the game (at least IMO and according to MetaWing), I find this slight nerf welcome.

Actually, for once, I'm gonna side with @SabineKey on that one.
Adv. SLAM bombing does prevent your opponent from playing any low HP ace. The warden especially laughs at Soontir or Fenn.
In a game based on manoeuvring, you should not be able to do a double manoeuver (with all your dial open) then a bomb every turn. Because it means that any time in the game, if the low PS ace ends a turn in front of the K-wing at range 1-3, it's gonna get bombed for sure the next round.
At least that gets fixed; of course now we can argue about wether that fix is good or not, and I'm not convinced by it. It's sad the K-wing (especially the generics) won't be able to use Adv SLAM any more, when that card was designed for them... (bombers will take EI and missiles will take LRS).
My dream fix for advanced SLAM would have been reducing the choice of manoeuvers, with either "make a straight move of the same speed of the dialed manoeuver", or even "do you dialed manoeuver again". But we all know there's not a lot of thinking to be expected from the dev team these days.

Now Miranda is an entirely different problem.
Yes, she outshines the generics, but isn't a problem with 95% of the generics in the game ??
The problem is not Miranda herself, as regen with 1 AGI is quite easy to deal with. The problem lies with the TLT.
A reliable weapon (even when using the regen option !) that fires at 360° on range 3 is what makes Miranda so good. She doesn't have to bother about arc, can just run away beside rocks until the end of the game, or until a real good opportunity for bombing shows up. That's, imo, the problem. Remove TLT and Miranda may be quite OK.

They've thought up this nerf during the days of triple K's. This stops triple K's from all being able to slam bomb therefore losing their effectiveness. It doesn't affect Miranda as she can still use the unique card in EI. It's the same kind of nerf as the Deadeye nerf. Designed to stop triple jumps without nerfing the ship itself. I think this is another attempt to quell a ships dominance without killing it's hero pilot.

The only thing I see wrong with it is it's probably too late. I haven't seen triple K's in months.

FWIW I think this fix is a good one.

If K-Wings were planned all along to Adv-SLAM into Cluster Mines then they were badly planned from the get-go, because that's been clearly demonstrated to be a completely ****** thing to add to the game. The only reason you don't see Warden Squadron Pilots around these days is that they're been such an effective overkill scourge on high agility aces that they don't even need to be on the table to eradicate them.

I think EI Cluster Mines Miranda is still going to be very good, she's just going to have to expose a vulnerability after those bombing runs where she had to SLAM into position. If anything I think the nerf doesn't go far enough alone and I hope there's extra controls added against other bombing cards (eg. Sabine).

I think if the Nerf was targeted at Miranda, then they shot themselves in the foot.
Bomblets are just so good, and on Miranda, the use of slam to reposition is 10 times more worth than getting a free action at the end of it.

TLT + crazy reposition is a powerful combinations, made even more powerful by leaving an auto-damage bomb in your wake as you run away.

On 2017-08-23 at 7:25 AM, thespaceinvader said:

Very, very doubtful, they've never, ever FAQed anything prior to release.

Yeah, it's generally months later. Still waiting to know how minefield/extra ammo should work...

21 minutes ago, Thormind said:

Yeah, it's generally months later. Still waiting to know how minefield/extra ammo should work...

I thought it had been established that you couldn't use the EM tokens to drop double the bombs with Minefield Mapper, but at the UK Nationals it was ruled the other way. Very confusing situation.

56 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I thought it had been established that you couldn't use the EM tokens to drop double the bombs with Minefield Mapper, but at the UK Nationals it was ruled the other way. Very confusing situation.

This should have been FAQed before the product release. Like so many others in the past (Kylo/Maarek, Genius/ion come to mind...)

1 hour ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I thought it had been established that you couldn't use the EM tokens to drop double the bombs with Minefield Mapper, but at the UK Nationals it was ruled the other way. Very confusing situation.

It had been established only by common sense

Sadly, that doesn't hold a lot of stock apparently

3 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

It had been established only by common sense

Sadly, that doesn't hold a lot of stock apparently

The trouble with common sense is how rare it is.

12 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

The trouble with common sense is how rare it is.

This.

So very this.