Is there an official way to ask rules questions yet? I should have asked FFG at GenCon about this ruling, but since I didn't, I will see if I can get it here. Tatsuo's ability:

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Action: During a conflict, choose this character and up to 1 other character you control - move those characters to the conflict.

The question is, can his ability be used if he is already in the conflict? One answer is yes, because the cost only involves choosing two characters. The second answer is no, because the effect does not change Tatsuo's board state, although the overall board state is changed if another character moves in.

I would lean towards yes since Tatsuo's location is not specified in any way. Of you want to 'move' one or more characters to a conflict when one or more are already there, that's your choice. Resolve the action and move the characters that weren't there to begin with while any that cannot be 'moved' stay where they are.

The action would be partially or completely wasted if you had one or more characters already in the conflict, but, maybe you need to waste an action to get around Kisada.

I could very well be wrong but that's how I interpret this one. Not sure what sort of official rules options we're going to have but I hope it's better than us all guessing at it and then relying on "judge" discression. I mean watching that Lion vs Scorpion game where Lion sends the Otomo to attack when the Scorpion has the favor......with the judge sitting right there. Come on judge. Good thing Steve was watching the game to intervene, not that it would have likely mattered as Scorpion had the game well in hand at that point.

Hm. I'm pretty sure you can't move someone to somewhere they already are, but having said that as long as you choose one other character, resolving the effect changes board state - someone moves to the conflict - so I think it's all good. Partial resolution rule and all that, but worth confirmation.

Short answer: I would say yes, per the FAQ post about resolving abilities.

Long answer: For an ability to be legal, the clause prior to the dash in the action must be completely fulfilled. In this case, it says:

• During a conflict, choose this character and up to 1 other character you control

So as long as you have another character you can "choose" you can then move to the second half, following the dash. For this clause to be put into effect legally, a change in game state must occur. As long as some degree of change takes place, the action can legally be taken even if the full effect can't occur. The second clause on this card is:

• move those characters to the conflict.

Therefore if either of them can be moved, the action can be legally completed, as some change in gamestate has occurred.

At least that is my interpretation.

No. You cant make targets that cannot be affected by the effects of the Action.

Check the cost: Target him and another character you control.

Okay. You do that. Nothing illegal going on yet.

Check the effect: Move him and another character into the conflict.

Did the board state change? If so, then it is a legal play.

In this case, it did. A character moved into the battle. Him being outside of the battle was never specified, therefore him being in the battle is not an illegal board state for the ability to trigger.

This is the general check you need to do for each card. If you aren't violating the cost (such as trying to dishonor a character that is already dishonored) and the effect of the ability creates a change in the board state, it's typically (*with exceptions, I imagine) a legal play.

This is, of course, assuming I know what I'm talking about, which isn't guaranteed :P. See Item 9 of this post for an example involving Shameful display in which two targets can be chosen as long as one of them is successfully affected:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/256879-kiku-matsuri-frequently-asked-questions/

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Let's look at an example, as this question was commonly brought up for "Shameful Display: Action: During a conflict at this province, choose 2 participating characters - honor one of those characters and dishonor the other.". First off, there MUST be two participating characters to meet the targeting requirements. Next, assuming both yours and your opponent's characters are dishonored, you are allowed to play this card, as you would be able to honor your character. Because you changed the game state by honoring your character, the fact that you're not able to dishonor an already dishonored opponent's character is OK. Now let's assume you choose two participating characters that your opponent controls, one is honored and the other has no status. You would be able to dishonor the character with no status, and honor the character that is already honored. Because you changed the game state by dishonoring your opponent's character, it's OK that honoring an already honored character can't be fulfilled.

No. You have to target (choose) Tatsuo for his action. If Tatsuo is allready in the battle, he cannot be affected by his action. So you cannot target him and so you cannot pay the cost.

4 minutes ago, Bayushi Nono said:

No. You have to target (choose) Tatsuo for his action. If Tatsuo is allready in the battle, he cannot be affected by his action. So you cannot target him and so you cannot pay the cost.

From what I remember, since location is not a requirement in his activation, Tatsuo is a legal target. It doesn't check if he is able to move into the conflict before the - .

yeah but you can't move to a conflict you're in. that's not possible. to move to you need to not be there first.

just like in the example you can't bow someone who has already been bowed so they can't be targeted. and since it has to include tatsuo, it doesn't work.

1 minute ago, Tebbo said:

yeah but you can't move to a conflict you're in. that's not possible. to move to you need to not be there first.

True, but not everything after the dash has to be completed.

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- To play an ability, you MUST meet the cost and targeting requirements, meaning anything BEFORE the "-" dash in an ability MUST be met. i.e. if a card says "choose two participating characters -" then there must be two participating characters to activate the ability.

- Complete as much of an effect as you can given the circumstances (anything AFTER the "-" dash). If all of an effect can't happen, that's OK. For example, if an effect says "look at the top 5 cards of your deck" and you only have 3 cards, that's OK.

- The effect (after the dash) must at least make SOME change to the game state. If an effect doesn't make any change to the game state, the ability can't be activated.

This was the ruling at gencon, from this thread.

The second bullet, not everything after the dash has to occur, you just have to make sure that some change has occurred on the board. Since Tatsou has you chose another person, IF that person can move in, than it would be a legal action.

2 hours ago, RandomJC said:

From what I remember, since location is not a requirement in his activation, Tatsuo is a legal target. It doesn't check if he is able to move into the conflict before the - .

Tatsuo is not a legal target if he is already in battle.

But you need him as a legal target to resolve his action at all.

That has nothing to do with changing board stat. It has something to do with paying costs!

i don't buy it.

tatsuo is the required target. the other target is optional. so if tatsuo can't target himself how can he target anything else? you MUST meet the targeting requirements and you can't meet tatsuo's requirement (himself).

edit: nono beat me too it again. it's pretty clear. if it had said something like tatsuo OR another, etc. then it'd work. but it doesn't.

4 minutes ago, Bayushi Nono said:

Tetsuo is not a legal target if he is already in battle.

But you need him as a legal target to resolve his action at all.

BUT you can target an honored character with Shameful display to honor, as long as another character can be dishonored.

3 minutes ago, Tebbo said:

i don't buy it.

tatsuo is the required target. the other target is optional. so if tatsuo can't target himself how can he target anything else? you MUST meet the targeting requirements and you can't meet tatsuo's requirement (himself).

Doesn't matter if it's optional, if there is a second character to target, than an effect CAN occur, therefore it's a legal action.

again i just don't buy it. honored status is handled specially or they need to rewrite their own rules clarification. because what nono cites covers this situation very clearly.

it seems odd because tatsuo has to be targetable. but he alone would not be since he would not be moving anywhere. but i assume what you mean is that since the other character does move then its ok that tatsuo does not. it just seems wrong that he can target himself in the first place because he doesn't meet his own requirements.

Just now, RandomJC said:

BUT you can target an honored character with Shameful display to honor, as long as another character can be dishonored.

Yes, because in the moment you choose targets with SD, its not sure wich charakter is honored and wich dishonored. So an honored charakter is a legal target. Its a different case. Tetsuo has only one effect: Move him an another guy to battle.

2 minutes ago, Tebbo said:

again i just don't buy it. honored status is handled specially or they need to rewrite their own rules clarification. because what nono cites covers this situation very clearly.

It doesn't. Because it's a singular action to a singular card, not an action that effects two cards simultaneously.

Just now, Bayushi Nono said:

Yes, because in the moment you choose targets with SD, its not sure wich charakter is honored and wich dishonored. So an honored charakter is a legal target. Its a different case. Tetsuo has only one effect: Move him an another guy to battle.

It doesn't check for honored/dishonored state, just like Tatsou doesn't check where he is. If in the costs bit you chose two characters, than the effect has a legal target.

12 minutes ago, Bayushi Nono said:

Tetsuo is not a legal target if he is already in battle.

But you need him as a legal target to resolve his action at all.

That has nothing to do with changing board stat. It has something to do with paying costs!

right below that bullet in RR.

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Some abilities require the choice of a target that is not directly affected by the ability—the target is instead chosen as a reference point while resolving the ability. When choosing referential targets, a player is not bound by the rule that a target is ineligible if the resolution of the effect would not affect the chosen target.

A good question, and I'm not 100% certain about the answer but we do have these guidelines from the Rules Reference:

pg 9 - Initiation Abilityes / Player Cards

pg 15-16 - Target

What I see is that 1) the card requires you target Tatsuo because you must "choose this and up to 1 other card." 2) Play restrictions state we must be able to target both cards for the ability to even be initiated. 3) A card is not eligible to be a target if the effect would not affect the target. 4) If an ability requires the choosing of one or more targets and there is not a valid targets then the ability cannot be initiated.

I would say it appears Tatsuo cannot use his ability from inside a conflict to pull another character in. He cannot target himself with a "move to conflict" action if he is already inside the conflict. Without being able to target himself the ability is stopped by play restrictions check.

This may seem unusual because there is the rule that "you don't have to do everything after the dash." This isn't in conflict with that rule! This is a targeting restriction, and you cannot play a card that cannot find the required targets even if some targets exist.

But Tetsuo is affected by the effects of his action. And his action has only one effect. Move both targets to the battle. So both targets must be able to be affected by his action.

Again: To target Tetsuo is a part of the cost of his action. But you cannot target him as a legal target if he is allready in battle.

yeah i guess that's the most important little bit then. what does directly affected mean in this case...? both are affected which is 'direct'?

with that bit it seems like that covers it and it would work though. it feels kind of not right though, in spirit in some way. i interpret it as more tatsuo and a buddy joining the battle. not tatsuo harpooning a friend.

edit: moving really fast. i was replying to RandomJC's conclusion.

In response to some other banter

1) Shameful Display does the check for play restrictions. It needs to find 2 characters who can either be honored or dishonored, but it doesn't specify which. It does not have you target a character and dishonor them, and target a character and honor them. This allows it to partially function. If it did state "choose a character you control, and a character your opponent controls - honor the character you control and dishonor the character your opponent controls" then you would not be able to use it if your opponent only controlled a dishonorable character at the province.

2) Tatsuo does require himself to be targeted as per the rules - Choose literally means "to target." You must choose him for his ability. If you cannot target him with a "move to the conflict" action then his ability cannot be used.

3) If Tatsuo's ability read "choose this and up to 1 other character - move them either to or from the current conflict" then you could target him in the conflict and another character out of the conflict and move them both to the conflict... but its not worded that way. That is the difference between this and Shameful Display.

4) I feel this fits thematically as well as mechanically since the point of Tatsuo's ability is him leading the charge into battle.

You cannot compare SD with Tatsuo. Cause SD has two different effects. A Target must be legal only for one of the effects.

Tatsuo has only one effect for each target. Its a complete different case.

yeah honestly reading that bullet again i still do feel it can't be used if tatsuo is already in battle. and as shosuko said, it doesn't seem in the spirit of the ability either. because i guess 'direct' just means it is affected vs a 'reference' which is unaffected by the effect of the abiliuty.

45 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

right below that bullet in RR.

I believe you to be correct.