Phoenix Clan Strategy (Now Roles released)

By Tonbo Karasu, in Legend of the Five Rings: The Card Game

1 hour ago, Bubba9 said:

wtf... the game has not even been released and they already impose players what role they have to chose for a tournament. biggest joke ever. deck construction rules is in the rules btw.

and if i remember right players at gencon decided, were was my vote there?

The role doesn't actually change much. If you built a deck within the rules as presented, it will be completely tournament legal no matter what role your clan has. The only changes to deck construction are the ability to use the appropriate initiate and either add more off-clan cards (keeper) or double up on province elements (seeker). There's also the slightly different interaction with elements and conflicts, but that doesn't impose deck construction rules.

2 hours ago, phillos said:

In a game about duty, fealty and honor it's perfectly thematic as is the idea of the Hatamoto. It puts a thematic wrapper on the meta game. If this really gets under your skin I feel like you aren't going to like this game Bubba9. Nothing about L5R screams free will to me. In fact it screams just the opposite. I've got to deal with the situation dealt to me by my place in the celestial order.

As a veteran that i know Bubba is and having played the old incarnation of L5R for long years, i'd like to object to that. He has liked this game and its Fluff very much, and i believe he still does.

I think he just sees the same problem that i see. Some random dudes (sorry, they may be great players and persons and all that, but still random dudes to most of us) have happened to win the first tournament, which is not even a full real one given the played format, and now decide for you how to build your deck. Same thing will happen after Worlds.

I know it only has a minor impact on deckbuilding, but nonetheless, Keeper lends itself more to aggressive style decks that want more influence, Seeker more to defensive style decks that want to get attacked. And i do indeed think that it's not very smart to dictate to a clan how its decks should be played. I mean as of now the small starting card base kinda lends itself to a certain playstyle for a certain clan. And it also did that in the past iteration of L5R. But i have seen the craziest decks being played in the old game, and engineering such decks makes up a lot of the fun in the game.

For example... Yes Phoenix lends itself to defensive honor runners. And even if the seeker role they have now just hampers a more agressive strategy just a little bit, it still does that... I really don't know what to think of that.

That being said, in the old game, there were also much more dramatic storyline decisions taken by the winning players at Kotei, like killing off the Nezumi once and for all iirc.

Sorry for double posting, Forum has some issues apparently XD

Edited by ForceM
33 minutes ago, ForceM said:

As a veteran that i know Bubba is and having played the old incarnation of L5R for long years, i'd like to object to that. He has liked this game and its Fluff very much, and i believe he still does.

I think he just sees the same problem that i see. Some random dudes (sorry, they may be great players and persons and all that, but still random dudes to most of us) have happened to win the first tournament, which is not even a full real one given the played format, and now decide for you how to build your deck. Same thing will happen after Worlds.

I know it only has a minor impact on deckbuilding, but nonetheless, Keeper lends itself more to aggressive style decks that want more influence, Seeker more to defensive style decks that want to get attacked. And i do indeed think that it's not very smart to dictate to a clan how its decks should be played. I mean as of now the small starting card base kinda lends itself to a certain playstyle for a certain clan. And it also did that in the past iteration of L5R. But i have seen the craziest decks being played in the old game, and engineering such decks makes up a lot of the fun in the game.

For example... Yes Phoenix lends itself to defensive honor runners. And even if the seeker role they have now just hampers a more agressive strategy just a little bit, it still does that... I really don't know what to think of that.

That being said, in the old game, there were also much more dramatic storyline decisions taken by the winning players at Kotei, like killing off the Nezumi once and for all iirc.

You realize of course that you're just a 'random dude' to the guy who actually showed up to gen con and 5-0'd the event to earn the right to be Hatamoto and have a say in what role each clan got?

The impact of the roles is not nearly as drastic as the two of you are making it out to be. They do not swing your ability to play any paticular style by enough of a degree to matter.

Personally I like it for a couple reasons. I think the flavor is great and spot on for the game. Much more interesting than the CCG. Also, if there is some sort role advantage to be exploited it will weed out those that like to be powergamers from the ones that are loyal to their clan.

If playing a Keeper or seeker role is really that important than you have the choice to jump ship to a different clan. If you are loyal to your clan you work with your clanmates to make the best deck you can and dial in your playmaking ability. The results will show everyone's true colors.

2 hours ago, ForceM said:

As a veteran that i know Bubba is and having played the old incarnation of L5R for long years, i'd like to object to that. He has liked this game and its Fluff very much, and i believe he still does.

I think he just sees the same problem that i see. Some random dudes (sorry, they may be great players and persons and all that, but still random dudes to most of us) have happened to win the first tournament, which is not even a full real one given the played format, and now decide for you how to build your deck. Same thing will happen after Worlds.

I know it only has a minor impact on deckbuilding, but nonetheless, Keeper lends itself more to aggressive style decks that want more influence, Seeker more to defensive style decks that want to get attacked. And i do indeed think that it's not very smart to dictate to a clan how its decks should be played. I mean as of now the small starting card base kinda lends itself to a certain playstyle for a certain clan. And it also did that in the past iteration of L5R. But i have seen the craziest decks being played in the old game, and engineering such decks makes up a lot of the fun in the game.

For example... Yes Phoenix lends itself to defensive honor runners. And even if the seeker role they have now just hampers a more agressive strategy just a little bit, it still does that... I really don't know what to think of that.

That being said, in the old game, there were also much more dramatic storyline decisions taken by the winning players at Kotei, like killing off the Nezumi once and for all iirc.

Well sounds to me he doesn't like the game now and didn't like it then. Tournament winners and representatives of the clan making choices that effect everyone is a core concept of the game. I'm not sure it matters that he is a veteran. I mean the majority of us are L5R veterans.

ADD: Listen the Roles are a bonus. You don't have to deck build to them if you don't want to and if you don't like the idea of tournaments winners being representatives contributing to the direction of the game you can always just ignore FFG rganized play. I mean why participate if you don't like anything about the system and the incentives it presents.

Edited by phillos
2 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

You realize of course that you're just a 'random dude' to the guy who actually showed up to gen con and 5-0'd the event to earn the right to be Hatamoto and have a say in what role each clan got?

The impact of the roles is not nearly as drastic as the two of you are making it out to be. They do not swing your ability to play any paticular style by enough of a degree to matter.

Yes, of course i am a random dude to him. I am also not the one to decide the role of any clan. I would not want to do that either. So it's nothing at all against the player in question, just don't like the principle of how this is done in the first place.

I would have liked to decide which seeker/keeper role to play in deckbuilding freely. Because i just think it's a bad decision to already limit people in the way they build their deck in any way before the game is even released

The portents for this game to be a success are good, and the hype seems to be there, so i just hope stuff like this does not spoil it.

And as i said, even if it's pretty a minor influence, it is one nonetheless.

I've now played three games of new L5R as Phoenix, against Scorpion, Dragon, and Crab. Lost to Scorpion (broken stronghold) but it was close; I won the other two by dishonor somehow. I think my opponents got greedy when it came to drawing, and I ended beating both when they were at 2 honor by attacking unopposed with Air. I've also never been above 20 honor myself but have comfortably hit the mid teens a couple times. Just seems odd to me; I was not expecting dishonor wins as Phoenix.

13 hours ago, ForceM said:

Yes, of course i am a random dude to him. I am also not the one to decide the role of any clan. I would not want to do that either. So it's nothing at all against the player in question, just don't like the principle of how this is done in the first place.

I would have liked to decide which seeker/keeper role to play in deckbuilding freely. Because i just think it's a bad decision to already limit people in the way they build their deck in any way before the game is even released

The portents for this game to be a success are good, and the hype seems to be there, so i just hope stuff like this does not spoil it.

And as i said, even if it's pretty a minor influence, it is one nonetheless.

The first official tournament where clan roles are enforced is Worlds. From then on out, the clan role will be chosen by the highest ranking player at worlds for each clan. I don't think it is unreasonable for the best player in your clan at worlds each year to be able to determine the clan's role for the coming year... it is like a story decision with minor implications for actual game play

2 hours ago, Ryric said:

I've now played three games of new L5R as Phoenix, against Scorpion, Dragon, and Crab. Lost to Scorpion (broken stronghold) but it was close; I won the other two by dishonor somehow. I think my opponents got greedy when it came to drawing, and I ended beating both when they were at 2 honor by attacking unopposed with Air. I've also never been above 20 honor myself but have comfortably hit the mid teens a couple times. Just seems odd to me; I was not expecting dishonor wins as Phoenix.

I've been trying to say this for awhile now. It's a lot easier to make them lose 5-7 than it is to net gain 14. I'm splashing crab for Watch Commanders, and building around air and fire.

Clans are designed without roles considered, so cards are being created completely devoid of what role you might take. As a result these roles are purely fluff. At best its "Can I choose one more province of an element and possibly gain 1-2 more fate over the game" or "I get one- three more splashed cards from another clan and get 1-2 more fate".

None of these inherently break the game, because they are just extra. The Seeker initiate is terrible in full constructed and the Keeper is for certain niche decks.

As for phoenix, we either go for breaking the enemies provinces or we dishonor them to death. In fact in testing I've been finding that our dishonor deck has real teeth. It has severe, almost lethal, counters when fighting scorpion but besides that it is very interesting to say the least. But honor running isn't in our current future, we simply need more support.

24 minutes ago, Nickciufi said:

I've been trying to say this for awhile now. It's a lot easier to make them lose 5-7 than it is to net gain 14. I'm splashing crab for Watch Commanders, and building around air and fire.

I've been splashing Unicorn, using Iuchi Wayfinder for an extra shugenja and some minor scouting, and Spyglass for card draw.

4 hours ago, Ryric said:

I've now played three games of new L5R as Phoenix, against Scorpion, Dragon, and Crab. Lost to Scorpion (broken stronghold) but it was close; I won the other two by dishonor somehow. I think my opponents got greedy when it came to drawing, and I ended beating both when they were at 2 honor by attacking unopposed with Air. I've also never been above 20 honor myself but have comfortably hit the mid teens a couple times. Just seems odd to me; I was not expecting dishonor wins as Phoenix.

After 5 rounds in the Kiku Matsuri, I also found dishonor to be a strong theme just from a single core play style. I dishonored a Unicorn who tried to blitz through my provinces with heavy card draw, and thanks to a variety of fire chicken-flavored shenanigans, I dishonored my Scorpion opponent (Display of Power when he tried to claim the Air ring when he REALLY needed it, then Know the World to put it back into the unclaimed pool, then Tsukune to trigger it a second time to steal his last honor). I believe I hit about 19-21 honor in both occasions, the trick is you really have to generate honor IN ADDITION to stealing theirs. Which essentially means getting honored characters to leave play. Which (at the moment) also means triggering the fire ring to honor yourself as often as possible, and winning conflicts with the right cards in place to honor your characters.

Could someone please explain, or point me to an article about, what roles are and their impact on tournament play? Thanks!

Also, how did you get your clan symbol in your profile pic?

5 minutes ago, Isawa Tsuke said:

Could someone please explain, or point me to an article about, what roles are and their impact on tournament play? Thanks!

Also, how did you get your clan symbol in your profile pic?

Link for Clan Roles: https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/op/l5r-lcg/roles/

For getting the clan symbol as your profile pic, go to top right of the page and click on your username, and from the drop-down menu select "Profile." There should be an icon on your profile picture on the profile page you can click on to change the profile pic, the clan mons are pre-loaded options you can select from.

21 minutes ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

Link for Clan Roles: https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/op/l5r-lcg/roles/

For getting the clan symbol as your profile pic, go to top right of the page and click on your username, and from the drop-down menu select "Profile." There should be an icon on your profile picture on the profile page you can click on to change the profile pic, the clan mons are pre-loaded options you can select from.

Great, thanks!

On August 23, 2017 at 8:23 PM, ForceM said:

Yes, of course i am a random dude to him. I am also not the one to decide the role of any clan. I would not want to do that either. So it's nothing at all against the player in question, just don't like the principle of how this is done in the first place.

I would have liked to decide which seeker/keeper role to play in deckbuilding freely. Because i just think it's a bad decision to already limit people in the way they build their deck in any way before the game is even released

The portents for this game to be a success are good, and the hype seems to be there, so i just hope stuff like this does not spoil it.

And as i said, even if it's pretty a minor influence, it is one nonetheless.

Honestly, I can't get behind this. I can appreciate you wish to have a say in he game and have an opinion, however, games are generally about structure and sets of rules and strategies to accomplish goals set within those rules. If you don't have those rules you aren't playing the same game. We happen to be interested in playing a game that happens to have a certain theme and history but, the memory of that game had quite the ability to change based upon decisions that others got to make that we were not involved in. If anything, I have to applaud FFG for trying to setup an environment where the meta changes and isn't stagnant; challenging us to build decks while knowing the rules up front. Giving us the ability to have all the cards upfront and merely saying bring your best strategy and play it to the bone. I would even say you should try playing with the different keepers and seekers but only to develop strategies and understand the what ifs but, if you ever want to be able to affect the rules and have a say in what you can play in a tourney you have to learn how to play by the rules before you can ever expect to change them.

Edited by Strange1
23 hours ago, Strange1 said:

Honestly, I can't get behind this. I can appreciate you wish to have a say in he game and have an opinion, however, games are generally about structure and sets of rules and strategies to accomplish goals set within those rules. If you don't have those rules you aren't playing the same game. We happen to be interested in playing a game that happens to have a certain theme and history but, the memory of that game had quite the ability to change based upon decisions that others got to make that we were not involved in. If anything, I have to applaud FFG for trying to setup an environment where the meta changes and isn't stagnant; challenging us to build decks while knowing the rules up front. Giving us the ability to have all the cards upfront and merely saying bring your best strategy and play it to the bone. I would even say you should try playing with the different keepers and seekers but only to develop strategies and understand the what ifs but, if you ever want to be able to affect the rules and have a say in what you can play in a tourney you have to learn how to play by the rules before you can ever expect to change them.

I'm not crazy about it, either, just like I'm not crazy about most of the changes from the old game. But this is what we get, and it still looks like a good game, even if it's not identical to the old one. I'm looking forward to getting back into it, even if there are new mechanics I have to get used to.

I'm actually happy with the new game. It's refreshing and provides enough difference from the original that the bad of the old gets overlooked. FFG is actually pretty good with games of attrition as well. I actually prefer those. One difference is that the old game was not a game of attrition even though it tried to look like it. This actually seems to take elements of other AEG games though and combines them with FFG standards. Original Doomtown and LBS come to mind.

Do you guys think we can make a focused dishonor deck right now in Phoenix?

I haven't been able to properly playtest yet, but I'm planning to include cards like Spies at Court (discard to force higher bids), Court Games (obviously), For Shame (Potential dishonoring) and splashing Levy. As it would involve bidding low I think it should gain some honor that can be spent in Assasination (honoring out wouldn't be a goal). I would focus more on dishonoring personalities rather than honoring mine, but I think a deck like that could struggle to win conflicts.

I'm also having troubles deciding what to leave out of the conflict deck (cards like Charge and Good Omen feel very important for us due to the high cost of many of our personalities).

On 25.8.2017 at 3:23 AM, Strange1 said:

Honestly, I can't get behind this. I can appreciate you wish to have a say in he game and have an opinion, however, games are generally about structure and sets of rules and strategies to accomplish goals set within those rules. If you don't have those rules you aren't playing the same game. We happen to be interested in playing a game that happens to have a certain theme and history but, the memory of that game had quite the ability to change based upon decisions that others got to make that we were not involved in. If anything, I have to applaud FFG for trying to setup an environment where the meta changes and isn't stagnant; challenging us to build decks while knowing the rules up front. Giving us the ability to have all the cards upfront and merely saying bring your best strategy and play it to the bone. I would even say you should try playing with the different keepers and seekers but only to develop strategies and understand the what ifs but, if you ever want to be able to affect the rules and have a say in what you can play in a tourney you have to learn how to play by the rules before you can ever expect to change them.

If you think that i want to have a say, you clearly didn't read at all what i have been writing.

I don't want any player to decide the role of the clans. I want everybody to be able to pick their role while building a deck because i think if there need to be seeker or keeper cards, it's a mistake to force clans into it, especially so early in the game's lifespan with a limited card pool.

I don't want them to limit diversity already. You can say the impact is not so big. But it is still limiting diversity no matter what you say.

If they assign roles for the clans in order to get on with the storyline, okay fine. But this should imho not have any repercussions on deckbuilding, including tournaments.

To give you an example. If they at some point let a player decide the fate of a personnality represented by a card. Would they then just have the card forbidden in tournaments (i mean outside the normal set rotation? Or if Meishodo would have been interdicted by the emperor. Could we then not play the Unicorn Shugenja at tournaments? Would you like such decisions? Because it's quite similar to what they do with the keepers/ seekers.

So i have no problems with the storyline being driven on by player decisions, but there should be no repercussions on deckbuilding and gameplay regarding these decisions imho.

Edited by ForceM

great example of how f... up the roles are. ffg will release a lion card not even playable by the lion clan...

and yeah, i love the new game, but for me having to respect the roles is plain stupid, everybody knows scorps were the underhand of the emperor, but still you didnt have to chose to play the underhand in the old version. and seeing the lion card is enough proof for me to chose my role freely.

21148616_488937078159830_1963454333_n.jpg

Edited by Bubba9
47 minutes ago, Bubba9 said:

great example of how f... up the roles are. ffg will release a lion card not even playable by the lion clan...

and yeah, i love the new game, but for me having to respect the roles is plain stupid, everybody knows scorps were the underhand of the emperor, but still you didnt have to chose to play the underhand in the old version. and seeing the lion card is enough proof for me to chose my role freely.

21148616_488937078159830_1963454333_n.jpg

You actually want to play this card?

Take off the role requirement and I still wouldn't want to play it.

You clearly just want to be angry about something if this is the card you feel that justifies your opinion.

@ForceM , @Bubba9 , and all the others arguing that fixed roles is bad for deck construction diversity:

a) I will assume your comments refer to the competitive scene. There is no rule or whatsoever preventing you to use any role you want in a non-sanctioned event or in a friendly game.

b) As counterintuitive as it may seem, talking about the competitive scene, I do think that fixed roles enhance deck construction diversity. Let me go step by step.

b.1) My first assumption here is that the vast majority of participants in a sanctioned tournament would try to compile the most effective deck possible for the contest. If a given role is the best for a certain clan, following this assumption most players from that clan --and more likely all competitive players from the said clan, will chose that role for the tournament.

b.2) As deck construction is constricted by the role election, if a certain role is better than any other this is because there is a given bunch of cards that establish synergies and benefit from such role. Again, most players --and more likely all competitive players , would auto-include such set of cards in their decks.

b.3) As a consequence, most decks for a certain clan --and more likely the decks of all competitive players of such clan, would end up being very, very similar among them.

Hence, opening the range of choices to include the most efficient one is likely to cause a very narrow distribution of deck variance , at least regarding the competitive players in the competitive scene of a (major) tournament.

On the contrary, I think different players might be able to find different sub-optimal solutions to overcome the selection of a sub-optimal role . From my point of view, that would lead to a higher variety of decks within a given clan trying to benefit or deal with the sub-optimal selection of the role for such clan.

In summary, if somebody else chooses a role for your clan you might not be able to build up the best deck for your clan, but the same will happen to most of the other clans as well. Add to all this the fact that roles will be renewed on a yearly basis shacking the meta and forcing clans with optimal selection of a role to surrender such role in favour of a sub-optimal one, and I think you'll see more variety on deck construction than the one you'd get with a free selection of roles. In addition to all this and going back to my point a), you can also agree on any set of home brewed rules (i.e no role restriction or using only unpicked roles) for your local flavour-based tournaments in your FLGS; these make for very fun experiences from time to time.

Of course, these are just my thoughts that could be completely wrong... but yet I still think the current role system is beneficial for the sake of deck construction diversity in the competitive scene. Just my two zeni.

30 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

You actually want to play this card?

Take off the role requirement and I still wouldn't want to play it.

You clearly just want to be angry about something if this is the card you feel that justifies your opinion.

This is not about the card being powerful or playable or not. It's just clearly showing that they did not d fully think this seeker/keeper thing through.

A clan card should be playable by the associated Clan. On Tournaments.

The other thing is that in this pack we get how many? 2 cards per clan? And one of them is already not playable for Lion, at least for some time. With the possibility that further cards will become unplayable or the opposite depending on choices at worlds?

I think we have a right to complain about that.

Edited by ForceM
17 minutes ago, barrufet said:

@ForceM , @Bubba9 , and all the others arguing that fixed roles is bad for deck construction diversity:

a) I will assume your comments refer to the competitive scene. There is no rule or whatsoever preventing you to use any role you want in a non-sanctioned event or in a friendly game.

b) As counterintuitive as it may seem, talking about the competitive scene, I do think that fixed roles enhance deck construction diversity. Let me go step by step.

b.1) My first assumption here is that the vast majority of participants in a sanctioned tournament would try to compile the most effective deck possible for the contest. If a given role is the best for a certain clan, following this assumption most players from that clan --and more likely all competitive players from the said clan, will chose that role for the tournament.

b.2) As deck construction is constricted by the role election, if a certain role is better than any other this is because there is a given bunch of cards that establish synergies and benefit from such role. Again, most players --and more likely all competitive players , would auto-include such set of cards in their decks.

b.3) As a consequence, most decks for a certain clan --and more likely the decks of all competitive players of such clan, would end up being very, very similar among them.

Hence, opening the range of choices to include the most efficient one is likely to cause a very narrow distribution of deck variance , at least regarding the competitive players in the competitive scene of a (major) tournament.

On the contrary, I think different players might be able to find different sub-optimal solutions to overcome the selection of a sub-optimal role . From my point of view, that would lead to a higher variety of decks within a given clan trying to benefit or deal with the sub-optimal selection of the role for such clan.

In summary, if somebody else chooses a role for your clan you might not be able to build up the best deck for your clan, but the same will happen to most of the other clans as well. Add to all this the fact that roles will be renewed on a yearly basis shacking the meta and forcing clans with optimal selection of a role to surrender such role in favour of a sub-optimal one, and I think you'll see more variety on deck construction than the one you'd get with a free selection of roles. In addition to all this and going back to my point a), you can also agree on any set of home brewed rules (i.e no role restriction or using only unpicked roles) for your local flavour-based tournaments in your FLGS; these make for very fun experiences from time to time.

Of course, these are just my thoughts that could be completely wrong... but yet I still think the current role system is beneficial for the sake of deck construction diversity in the competitive scene. Just my two zeni.

Of course there will always be cookie cutter decks that will find a certain (arguably) optimal build for a certain clan. And a keeper/seeker role that may or may not coincide with the one picked by some other crack player at a tournament.

But firstly, not everyone wants to play said optimized deck, not even at tournaments. And believe me i have seen innovative (fun) decks that nearly came from nowhere and that no one had on his radar do very well on Koteis in the old L5R. This could be somewhat hampered here.

So i highly doubt that your assumptions b.2 and b.3 are alway correct even when talking about a top conpetitive core of players.

And second, it can lead to clans with suboptimal roles for their playstyle, while others get the best role for their optimal build. Which could then lead to a bit of a worse balance between clans. I don't claim to know if this is the case right now or will be in the future. But it is possible.

Edited by ForceM