10 hours ago, ForceM said:

Missiles were not taken into consideration when this was created? Wut?

We have had them since wave 1!

I also remind you that for 7-8 waves, Bombs were considered unplayable and missiles not worth it... so, yeah. You can say that they are very strong now, but not that they were not considered for balamcing purposes!

you misread what i wrote. i said that ordinance is either not playable OR over-powered because of the way ordinance fits into the basic rule system. it was unplayable until about wave 8, then became steadily more OP as new platforms and upgrades emerged. i understand that x-wings have torpedos. its just that paying S.P. for a single attack that rolls the same number of die as your base attack was silly. because the game balance was based on the t-65 and tie fighter, attacks which end a tie fighter outright should cost around 12 points. instead they now cost 3. the wave one game did not plan on alpha strikes being a primary tactic, and the system is warping now to accomodate.

I don't think it's bombs that are making these games boring. I've watched a few of these finals and games now.

Biggs Lowrich have made the game slow, so now many of the lists are super patient. If you look at Nathan or Duncan's list they play primarily on conservation and eventually enough damage output.

The Bomblet Nym lists work like this too, and flying against SLAM bombing you need to fly like this too.

There is talk that Nym can go down fast but realistically only the most dedicated alpha strike will bring him down in one round.

I don't think it is bombs, I think it is what you need for your list to be successful in the current meta. The biggest threat is some form of Fair Ship and the secondary threat is probably Nym and both Force your opponent to engage correctly or suffer.

I think this makes the games intensely tactical and probably pretty intense for the players. The final of Gencon was actually exquisitely flown by both players. The Zack Matthews managed to create 3 salvo opportunities on Corran Horn and none of them paid off for him. Duncan Howard had to use every bait and switch trick in his arsenal to create opportunities to whittle away Ron Brennan's fair ship squad.

The games are certainly really really boring to watch on the stream, which is quite obvious compared to the World's Final which was quite exciting.

Currently the tournament rules really emphasise point fortresses and safe flying and I would be surprised if they changed anytime soon. This accentuates the problem of hyper defensive joust capable squads (anyone remember Commonwealth Defenders or old school Parattanni) that just don't give up MOV.

It might look like bombs have taken certain ships out of the game but realistically even if Soontir Fel survived this meta he isn't banking enough points to win games or get to the cut. Not anymore. The game isn't dull to watch because bombs, it's dull to watch because it's all about preserving the win, not going out to get the win.

Bombs themselves, I don't have a huge problem with. They require positioning, thought, and planning to use effectively. I do, however, have issues with the bombing options in the game that create something of an NPE - for me and a few I've spoken to, at least - in anything outside of a casual game.

Firstly, Sabine. She's incredibly effective. In fact, far more effective than her points value would suggest when you consider she's auto damage, global, AND works on bombs dropped by any ship. Yes, she's only once per turn, but so was Palp, and the complaints were ad nauseum right up until he was nerfed. To me, she's having a similar (not the same) effect on the game, the meta, and the list building.

Secondly, infinite bombs. Somewhat takes the thought out of it when you can just plop them out the back every turn. Unless you messed up your wingman's positioning for the turn, there's literally no reason not to drop one, even if nobody is in range, which kind of flies in the face of all the value you put on good players landing bombs through smart play.

Lastly, turrets. The ships which can best use bombs, have secondary turrets. In fact, most of the ships for scum/rebels that have turrets slots, have bomb slots. The few rebel ones that don't can be given one with Sabine or Bomb Loadout. Suddenly it's not a bombing run, but a risk-free TLT strafing fest while you hold onto a bomb for opportune moments. This is made worse by the fact that you can package infinite bombs and a TLT together. At long range, you're succumbing to death by a thousand cuts. At close range, you're eating a bomb. At medium range, there's a chance you're doing both.

I have no issues with bombing, and I have few issues with TLT. Together, however, they're just not fun to play against. From start to finish, win or lose, it's an often boring, constantly frustrating game. I'm not partial to any particular faction in this game. I jump between them regularly, enjoying each sides quirks and traits. However, it should be noted that three of the most potentially powerful bombing pilots in the game - Emon, Deathrain and Deathfire - rarely, if ever, see table time. None of them have turret slots either. Turns out bombing something is considerably harder when you're not TLT-ing whoever else is in range every turn, to boot.

I've never complained about losing a ship to a really well placed bomb (I will literally cheer when it happens, because I love good flying), but when the death blow is "...and another damage from Sabine", my mood sours. I honestly stopped playing after last Regionals because of it, as did quite a number of people in the area. The player base here has gone from being very healthy, to barely existing, and this little trifecta above has a lot to do with why. Now, the new wave coming gives me some hope, because you might have a chance of eliminating a Sabine/TLT carrier before she saddens your day, but time will tell. I'm hopeful for a meta change, but not optimistic.

Theyre making it more interesting to me because positional play is much more important than you think.

"But he can just drop the bomb on you" yeah, because he won the positional play. Yes it means you might not get a shot but you can totally (majority of the time) just fly off in another direction to not get bombed.

I love the sheer fear bombs cause and makes people panic that dont know how to thread the needles or predict maneuvers properly. If anything, bombletts shouldnt cause crit effects, i'd be fine with that change.

6 hours ago, Vineheart01 said:

... If anything, bombletts shouldnt cause crit effects, i'd be fine with that change.

Yep, me too.

(and from someone who flys Nym with BG)

11 hours ago, Vineheart01 said:

Theyre making it more interesting to me because positional play is much more important than you think.

"But he can just drop the bomb on you" yeah, because he won the positional play. Yes it means you might not get a shot but you can totally (majority of the time) just fly off in another direction to not get bombed.

PS 10 with BG and Genius isn't winning at positional play; it's winning with perfect information, much like the pre-nerf Phantom.

4 hours ago, Hawkstrike said:

PS 10 with BG and Genius isn't winning at positional play; it's winning with perfect information, much like the pre-nerf Phantom.

Really? Well over 2 dozen games against that particular pilot hasnt won against me with information for jack.
Never lost to him yet. Period.

On 8/21/2017 at 7:22 PM, eagletsi111 said:

This is a serious question for those out there. Have Bombs and their super effectiveness made the game more boring to you.

So I normally watch every video of tournaments, and have for a while now. But with Gencon on and all the games being broadcast. I found that most of them were very boring. They didn't even look like a dog fighting game. I watched the final and yes it was boring, but I checked out for about half of it. I even didn't go to X-wing last week, I think that is the first time ever. I have gone when I felt like I was going to die, but last thursday. I sat at home and said, I'll watch preseason football instead. Never thought that would happpen. I used to hang around an watch others games before heading home from the store, now I just leave because watching thing is really bad.

Overall, I only watched 3 matches, because frankly I was bored, with the Bombs and bomb meta. I acknowledge it takes skill to use them, but wow having played with them and against since the release and watched others play. Games are not fun to watch anymore, as both side deploy bombs and skirt the edge of the board running from the other guys bombs. Did FFG make the game more boring with all the auto damage and addition of bombs in the new wave?

Does anyone else feel that way about watching this new meta? Are games just more boring to watch then ever?

Perhaps because you don't know/understand the bomb game it is more unfamiliar and therefore less interesting? Like the game itself has not changed but your expectation of what you were going to see simply has. For instance, if you go to eat and think you are getting a hamburger but instead get pulled pork, it may be very good food but since it wasn't what you expected it is no longer any good.

It could also be that the over-watching of the game you did has simply caught up to you. That you simply watched too much of it over the past few years and have burned yourself out.

6 hours ago, Hawkstrike said:

PS 10 with BG and Genius isn't winning at positional play; it's winning with perfect information, much like the pre-nerf Phantom.

Ofc it's winning positional play. If he managed to get behind you and thus can use a two bank to stick to you, he won the positional battle to get behind you first.

If you didn't use your other ship(s) to punish his attempt to get behind him, he won the positional battle.

I played with and vs Nym a lot lately, and it's very strategic. I really enjoy this play a lot, it's not about one round, but about planning rounds and positions carefully.

7 hours ago, Rangor said:

Ofc it's winning positional play. If he managed to get behind you and thus can use a two bank to stick to you, he won the positional battle to get behind you first.

If you didn't use your other ship(s) to punish his attempt to get behind him, he won the positional battle.

I played with and vs Nym a lot lately, and it's very strategic. I really enjoy this play a lot, it's not about one round, but about planning rounds and positions carefully.

I wonder if you'd be saying that if Nym could only deploy a bomb every other turn, Didn't have a Sensor Slot, with TLT, and only had 2 primary weapon, with no barrel roll, and a max speed of 3 forward like everyone other bomber in the game.

I think bombs are another interesting mechanic in the game. It's kind of weird that they're so overpowered, but they are fun nonetheless.

I will say that they completely break Heroes of the Aturi Cluster though... Sabine and Cluster Mines versus the TIE Interceptor aces in that game is not ok!

34 minutes ago, eagletsi111 said:

I wonder if you'd be saying that if Nym could only deploy a bomb every other turn, Didn't have a Sensor Slot, with TLT, and only had 2 primary weapon, with no barrel roll, and a max speed of 3 forward like everyone other bomber in the game.

Here, give Deathrain a turret slot and let's see what happens (that would be stupid, don't do that).

On 8/22/2017 at 5:25 PM, NakedDex said:

I have no issues with bombing, and I have few issues with TLT. Together, however, they're just not fun to play against. From start to finish, win or lose, it's an often boring, constantly frustrating game. I'm not partial to any particular faction in this game. I jump between them regularly, enjoying each sides quirks and traits. However, it should be noted that three of the most potentially powerful bombing pilots in the game - Emon, Deathrain and Deathfire - rarely, if ever, see table time. None of them have turret slots either. Turns out bombing something is considerably harder when you're not TLT-ing whoever else is in range every turn, to boot.

The reason Deathfire sees no playtime is because Imperial players, for all their "No shields all guts" talk are a bunch of pansies and don't realize they've got an amazing ship when they do. Bombing's the easiest thing to do in the world when I use him.
Recently played a game on Vassal where his two sets of clusters killed a Nym and a Miranda.

I'll be taking the beautiful little guy to Nationals.

If you love Interceptors bombs are tough, but fun. Bombs with advanced slam are 'No fun', and unlimited bombs are just as 'No fun'......hoping FFG finds some love for flying Aces sometime soon: the dream may return ?

I'm not a fan of bomblets, particularly with Nym. Doing automatic damage with no downsides isn't great . . .

That said, I don't think that bombs are necessarily the reason that the game is boring. Nym and Miranda are the ones using the bomblets, and both of them have to fly very cautiously because of how quickly they can get burned down. Bomblets on a Scimitar Pilot wouldn't make a boring game; the upgrade itself isn't really to blame. In the particular case of the GenCon finals, Nathan's list is an incredibly cagey list. If you catch either pilot in a bad spot, you'll kill them in a round, maybe two; and that's why the entire list is built around denying you that opportunity. Advanced Sensors Corran is absurdly good at staying out of arcs, forcing bumps, and generally not getting shot; and then even when he does get shot, he's not good at tanking the damage. Advanced Sensors Nym at PS 10 is also very good at avoiding shots in much the same way. This all adds up to a list that excels at winning because it does some damage while you do no damage, which is a surefire recipe for a boring match.

16 hours ago, DragoonKainKatarn said:

The reason Deathfire sees no playtime is because Imperial players, for all their "No shields all guts" talk are a bunch of pansies and don't realize they've got an amazing ship when they do. Bombing's the easiest thing to do in the world when I use him.
Recently played a game on Vassal where his two sets of clusters killed a Nym and a Miranda.

I'll be taking the beautiful little guy to Nationals.

Hey! I won a tournament a few weeks ago, with Deathfire, Shadow Squadron Phantom, and Vessery.

People were caught off guard by Deathfire and the Phantom, not being whisper

Check List juggler.

http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=3245

He died every game, but put out a lot of damage before it.

I think bombs are awesome (except for Scum Nym bumping with genius cheese) and I think mines are stupid that they detonate when dropped on you and not when your template overlaps.

Bombs are very strategic. People dont kturn behind you if you can drop a bomb. Nathan Eide used it to close off an entire corner of the map and sent his opponents squad in a different direction. That is the beauty of bombs. Mines are just cheese right now with instant explosion on contact and instant damage from sabine or rerolls from cad bane.

Personally it feels like the incremental upping of the power level has tipped past where it should have with bombs just the way it did with ordnance.

Was playing an event yesterday where after moving my ship behind a rock my opponents Nym deliberately AdvSen to barrel roll so that he could knowingly land on a rock and bump into me just so he could drop a bomblet with genius, and with the help of Cad Bane roll into 2 damage on my ship.

While it was clearly a very clever play in the situation, it felt so fundamentally wrong for the game as a whole, having your opponent deliberately try and bump every turn to prevent shooting while his Nym drops a bomblet with Genius and ignores the damage while your ship burns with no way to mitigate the damage. Trying to dodge a PS10 Nym with AdvSen is virtually impossible if you're trying to get a shot at it with a non turret ship while not eating a bomb every turn.

People, ffs.

Either you want ordinance in this game, or you don't. For too many waves ordinance was not remotely relevant to the meta. Now with GC, EM, and Bomb Tech it's relevant. It's Star Warsy, yet I wonder how many people who play this game are actually (a) Star Wars fans and/or (b) have seen a Star Wars movie. I'll leave the book reading and other stuff out of it, although I wonder about that, too. Especially if you think the 90s flight sims don't have an impact on this game (either in its inception or its continued growth).

Many people wailed and gnashed their teeth to make ordinance viable.

Now it is. It's exactly as dangerous as it is supposed to be. I'm going to laugh out loud at the salty tears of the players who flip out when the Gunboat preview is published. I've already seen it (and the Wave 13 prediction...really? The body's still warm, people).

Either stop complaning for fixes to make things relevant (because there is a massive amount of myopia on the part of many of the players that do demand change), or deal with the consequences of the changes you asked for.

This is not directed at anyone in particular: just the fact that people are complaing about Genius (really?) now that he's got a ship that he's actually really useful for (albiet in a niche application) just makes me laugh (or cry when I actually pause to think about what that means). That's just one example. I can cite more. People are actually now complaining about stuff that hasn't been meta relevant ever now being relevant, then proceed to complain that not enough stuff is relevant. Make up your minds, people.

Folks keep screaming for change...soon the game's going to be changed so much from what it once was that I'm not sure anyone will recognize the Frankenstein monster of rules and FAQs. Sometimes, just sometimes, maybe change isn't so good. There's a reason why some things are done the same way even though said things have been around for a long time.

I get it. For example, the Biggs/Wookie Gunship list is an "NPE" . I don't like playing against it either, but mostly because I cannot seem to resist the urge to joust the monster, or I end up making bad decisions and have to joust it. Guess I"ll fire up a new thread demanding change because I can't change. It can't possibly be my fault, right?

It's getting tiresome.

/rant

I'm with the OP. I used to love watching tourny replays (except triple uboats). The wave 11 meta is sooooo boring to watch.

More boring than say TLT? I think new fixes for old ships is the way to go. I see them way more often and even though I'm not playing as often as I used to. I think it improved a part of the game that had been lost. Now how do we get arc dodgers back in the fight?

5 hours ago, Scopes said:

This is not directed at anyone in particular: just the fact that people are complaing about Genius (really?) now that he's got a ship that he's actually really useful for (albiet in a niche application) just makes me laugh (or cry when I actually pause to think about what that means).

The problem isnt genius, or nyms ability, or being PS10, its the combo of the the three.

Genius was designed with all ships taking damage, so FFG did not need a clause about overlapping ships or obstacles. Then a ship comes that is immune to bombs and moves last. Now its a broken combo. Not dengaroo broken, but a big NPE. If Nym was PS7 and could only get to PS9, this is a completely different meta with aces lists able to at least come with a big bid to stand a chance.

On 8/26/2017 at 5:25 PM, DragoonKainKatarn said:

The reason Deathfire sees no playtime is because Imperial players, for all their "No shields all guts" talk are a bunch of pansies and don't realize they've got an amazing ship when they do. Bombing's the easiest thing to do in the world when I use him.
Recently played a game on Vassal where his two sets of clusters killed a Nym and a Miranda.

I'll be taking the beautiful little guy to Nationals.

Candlejack!

6 hours ago, Scopes said:

It's getting tiresome.

/rant

Am with Scopes.

Are bombs considered and action, primary attack or an added value to the bomber to drop, move and then fire? Please advise