I would add a new card to the Crab Clan options:

Crab Clan Gonna Win

Fate: 0

Action: If you are using a Crab Clan stronghold, win the game.

;-)

22 minutes ago, C2K said:

I don't see what the big deal is. Would you let some silly cultural perversion corrupt a definition that has been established for a really long time now?

Yup

@TechnoGolem , you're looking at it the wrong way. Dueling with only raw skill is a bid of 1. The more you increase that bid the more you're pulling skeezy dishonorable tricks out to ensure your guy wins the duel. Crane duelists are generally speaking very strong. The weakest of which I believe is a 3 Military, which is by no means weak. Perhaps, in the future, there will be an attachment or a stronghold that specifically raises the skill of duelists while dueling, but the more subgames you introduce the less and less a deck has to play "normal", for a lack of a better term.

Duelist Training specifically allows you to lose cards instead of Honor, which looks tailor-made for "we are so good at dueling that we are above losing Honor to win it"...

14 hours ago, Joe From Cincinnati said:

The dueling mechanic does leave a lot to be desired.

And in my opinion should not have been in this inception of the card game.

I've never cared for dueling in L5R, as the various factors of dueling in general just seem to, I don't exactly know which words or descriptions to use, but simply take away from the overall card/character/event/etc playing aspects of the game. It might be the flow of the game, it might be the oft times OTP 'power' of the effects of a duel, or it might be how a duel just seems to 'skewer' certain Clans over others, and in some cases seems downright 'low' to utilize against an opponent due to that given opponent not having sufficient means to effectively participate in a duel.

In this iteration of the game, while there are only a few characters that can duel (I can count the total with the fingers on one hand), there simply are so many wonderful aspects of this game, most of which we are slowly coming to appreciate, imo there is no real need to elevate duels into the running/playing of the game. The less we have of duels altogether, the more vibrant the game becomes.

And yes, I am a Dragon player mostly, and yes I did play the CCG years and years ago. (which is where my disdain emanates from)

9 hours ago, player2636234 said:

@TechnoGolem , you're looking at it the wrong way. Dueling with only raw skill is a bid of 1. The more you increase that bid the more you're pulling skeezy dishonorable tricks out to ensure your guy wins the duel. Crane duelists are generally speaking very strong. The weakest of which I believe is a 3 Military, which is by no means weak. Perhaps, in the future, there will be an attachment or a stronghold that specifically raises the skill of duelists while dueling, but the more subgames you introduce the less and less a deck has to play "normal", for a lack of a better term.

3 isn't very impressive. Seems to be average for good cards. So people that are supposed to be master duelists will tie against the average skilled samurai that hasn't honed their dueling skill to the same level? That is, unless they cheat. Which they will have to do in many cases since their opponent picks who they duel if you just use the Crane duelists base ability. Sure, the training card helps a little but you must discard cards, which are probably going to be very valuable to you.

Everything about it looks terrible to me and kills a lot of my interest in the game. I was hoping my opinion on this would change when they first showed the system but it has only gotten worse. My favorite play style from the last version is currently complete trash in this one.

It really bothers me that to boost the score you must cheat. That concept is great for Scorpion but beyond idiotic that the honorable clans will probably end up doing it every duel.

We have a Duelist trait but so far no cards that key off of it (I think.) I think we can reasonably expect there to be some cards in the future that make the Duelist trait worth having. That being said, I've always felt dueling has been a problematic mechanic to implement in L5R from the start. Flavorful, yes, but it has always had a number of issues.

Dueling is better in the new L5R than it ever was in the old. You don't have to slot in dedicated anti-dueling cards to not auto-lose to a deck using dueling, and clans that have access to dueling without spending influence (Crane and Dragon) can more easily set up the "magician's choices" of only bad possibilities for your opponent.

"Winning" a duel is not just getting the win result of a duel in the new L5R. As I've said before, when a Crane challenges their foe to a 3-3 duel with Duelist Training, the Crane is saying "You can certainly win this duel. To win this, you'll just pay me four honor to bow my guy. I like 4 honor. Or you could discard your hand to bow my guy. I like that too, sounds like a fair trade. Or you could just bid 1 and hope I didn't bid higher, and I end up bowing your guy. Sounds great to me!"

It's entirely playing your opponent instead of just flopping card effects around, which is much more skill intensive and interesting. This is great stuff.

Or you have the Dragon duelist who will straight up single out your guy on the battlefield and challenge him to a duel. And you have to decide if you want to win at all costs, or if you're willing to sacrifice fate (or your character, if it has no fate and loses and is therefore discarded) to maintain your honor.

1 hour ago, Suzume Tomonori said:

We have a Duelist trait but so far no cards that key off of it (I think.) I think we can reasonably expect there to be some cards in the future that make the Duelist trait worth having.

I could see an attachment to the effect of: "Cost: 2 Fate. +1/+1. Attach only to a Duelist character you control. Action: When attached character is participating in a duel, bow this attachment - this attachment gives the attached character +2/+2 instead until the end of the duel." (Random example not balanced for actual gameplay).

5 hours ago, TechnoGolem said:

3 isn't very impressive. Seems to be average for good cards. So people that are supposed to be master duelists will tie against the average skilled samurai that hasn't honed their dueling skill to the same level? That is, unless they cheat. Which they will have to do in many cases since their opponent picks who they duel if you just use the Crane duelists base ability. Sure, the training card helps a little but you must discard cards, which are probably going to be very valuable to you.

Everything about it looks terrible to me and kills a lot of my interest in the game. I was hoping my opinion on this would change when they first showed the system but it has only gotten worse. My favorite play style from the last version is currently complete trash in this one.

It really bothers me that to boost the score you must cheat. That concept is great for Scorpion but beyond idiotic that the honorable clans will probably end up doing it every duel.

Honestly - I wonder if you actually want dueling... If you want to automatically win a duel, why have a duel? Why not just have a normal action ability? The point of a duel is that there is some risk involved, that is why the abilities are so powerful (Raitsugu kills people, Kaizen sends EVERYONE home for a 1v1 or he can send himself home to punk out your opponent and come back in the next conflict, Duelist training bows someone which is crazy good in this game, seriously - how many bow actions are there? and this costs just 1 and can be used every turn!) Further you can easily win a duel just by dropping some FREE equips that give +2 MIL which are practically auto-include anyway...

I challenge you to explain your position better. Why do you want a duel instead of a simple ability?

3 hours ago, Gaffa said:

Dueling is better in the new L5R than it ever was in the old. You don't have to slot in dedicated anti-dueling cards to not auto-lose to a deck using dueling, and clans that have access to dueling without spending influence (Crane and Dragon) can more easily set up the "magician's choices" of only bad possibilities for your opponent.

"Winning" a duel is not just getting the win result of a duel in the new L5R. As I've said before, when a Crane challenges their foe to a 3-3 duel with Duelist Training, the Crane is saying "You can certainly win this duel. To win this, you'll just pay me four honor to bow my guy. I like 4 honor. Or you could discard your hand to bow my guy. I like that too, sounds like a fair trade. Or you could just bid 1 and hope I didn't bid higher, and I end up bowing your guy. Sounds great to me!"

It's entirely playing your opponent instead of just flopping card effects around, which is much more skill intensive and interesting. This is great stuff.

Oh boy... the bidding system is the best system in the game! It is a total mind game! Best of all - there are no right answers. Bidding 5 and giving your opponent 4 honor can feel really painful, but if you can choke out their hand with all of your extra cards then you can win! If you bid 1 and take some honor, you can pressure your opponent with your own honor win, or just dump it into an assassination for a FREE removal, especially if they end up dropping some conflict cards to boost a 2 cost character... Oh man the bidding is intense!

The flavour text to 'I can swim', the original story (as far as can be made out) is that the Scorpion stings the frog and both drown and the point of the story is that the Scorpion could not escape its true nature.

Otherwise we just get a scorpion who does not need a frog to cross a river as it can swim, needing to cross the river to presumably kill someone else asking that neutral non-enemy frog to carry it (when the frog could get away) and pretending it could not kill so it could randomly kill it. And then swimming across to the other side to kill what it actually wanted to kill.

(though I am referring to the original origins and not any L5R ccg adjustments that may have made this cannon)

About the game? nothing..

32 minutes ago, Matrim said:

The flavour text to 'I can swim', the original story (as far as can be made out) is that the Scorpion stings the frog and both drown and the point of the story is that the Scorpion could not escape its true nature.

I Can Swim it's the Rokugani version of the old japanese tale. It was told by Shinsei to Kami Bayushi, and it can be interpreted as "Always hide your true nature".

"When Shinsei tried to tell this story to Bayushi at the Tournament of the Kami, the Kami thought he knew the scorpion's response. But Shinsei changed the scorpion's final line: "But little frog, I can swim."

Bayushi was so pleased by the wisdom of this version that he had to wear a mask to hide his smile. The Kami did not use his fullest abilities in the remainder of the tournament, losing intentionally. Shinsei had completely altered the meaning of the parable. The original warning to the frog was turned into a lesson for the scorpion: do not expose your true nature, and others will always underestimate your capabilities. Bayushi built his clan on the principles of Shinsei's version of the tale, choosing the scorpion as his mon."

Wow, I take it all back (and it shows how I just started playing in DIamond and was never much a story player). Thanks for that lesson in the past...

27 minutes ago, Matrim said:

Wow, I take it all back (and it shows how I just started playing in DIamond and was never much a story player). Thanks for that lesson in the past...

Yeah, I always found it funny that a lot of Scorpion Players didn't know this tale is the reason their whole clan wear masks.

13 hours ago, shosuko said:

Honestly - I wonder if you actually want dueling... If you want to automatically win a duel, why have a duel? Why not just have a normal action ability? The point of a duel is that there is some risk involved, that is why the abilities are so powerful (Raitsugu kills people, Kaizen sends EVERYONE home for a 1v1 or he can send himself home to punk out your opponent and come back in the next conflict, Duelist training bows someone which is crazy good in this game, seriously - how many bow actions are there? and this costs just 1 and can be used every turn!) Further you can easily win a duel just by dropping some FREE equips that give +2 MIL which are practically auto-include anyway...

I challenge you to explain your position better. Why do you want a duel instead of a simple ability?

Oh boy... the bidding system is the best system in the game! It is a total mind game! Best of all - there are no right answers. Bidding 5 and giving your opponent 4 honor can feel really painful, but if you can choke out their hand with all of your extra cards then you can win! If you bid 1 and take some honor, you can pressure your opponent with your own honor win, or just dump it into an assassination for a FREE removal, especially if they end up dropping some conflict cards to boost a 2 cost character... Oh man the bidding is intense!

I'll try to explain myself better.

My biggest problem with dueling is that you need to bid honor, in most cases, if you want to win. If you win, chances are you bid higher honor than your opponent so you must lose honor. Thematically and mechanically you are acting dishonorable to gain an edge and win in the duel. Crane are known for being great duelists and very honorable. So this mechanic spits in the face of Crane players both mechanically and thematically.

To me, this is like if they said Crab get a penalty to their military strength every time they defend. Phoenix? Yeah, they can never use any magic without some heavy penalties. Thematically and mechanically this is just wrong.

I don't want dueling to be an instant win either but I do think duelists (for any clan) should have some kind of slight benefit against non-duelists. My suggestion for the current system would be that all duelists count as if they bid one higher for determining the winner but not comparing the honor loss. Especially since there is some risk involved with duels and they can fail, unlike actions that won't fail and have no real risk to using them.

But overall I just want the current dueling system tossed out the door. I am fine with some kind of gambling mechanic being built into it but I don't want it to be one that involves losing honor, especially if I am playing a clan that is all about being honorable and duelists. It kind of ruins it for me knowing that I have to "cheat" in order to have a better chance at winning.

2 minutes ago, TechnoGolem said:

I'll try to explain myself better.

My biggest problem with dueling is that you need to bid honor, in most cases, if you want to win. If you win, chances are you bid higher honor than your opponent so you must lose honor. Thematically and mechanically you are acting dishonorable to gain an edge and win in the duel. Crane are known for being great duelists and very honorable. So this mechanic spits in the face of Crane players both mechanically and thematically.

To me, this is like if they said Crab get a penalty to their military strength every time they defend. Phoenix? Yeah, they can never use any magic without some heavy penalties. Thematically and mechanically this is just wrong.

I don't want dueling to be an instant win either but I do think duelists (for any clan) should have some kind of slight benefit against non-duelists. My suggestion for the current system would be that all duelists count as if they bid one higher for determining the winner but not comparing the honor loss. Especially since there is some risk involved with duels and they can fail, unlike actions that won't fail and have no real risk to using them.

But overall I just want the current dueling system tossed out the door. I am fine with some kind of gambling mechanic being built into it but I don't want it to be one that involves losing honor, especially if I am playing a clan that is all about being honorable and duelists. It kind of ruins it for me knowing that I have to "cheat" in order to have a better chance at winning.

If your opponent bids only 1, thinking that you'll bid high to win, and knowing that you'll lose honour of you do, there's nothing o stop you also bidding low and winning without cost. And if your opponent bids high to try and beat you, well, they'll lose honour. So long as your duellist starts out ahead, the dials are nothing to fear.

Just now, Laurence J Sinclair said:

If your opponent bids only 1, thinking that you'll bid high to win, and knowing that you'll lose honour of you do, there's nothing o stop you also bidding low and winning without cost. And if your opponent bids high to try and beat you, well, they'll lose honour. So long as your duellist starts out ahead, the dials are nothing to fear.

Sorry but you are missing my point. The concept that every time you bid more than 1 you are cheating bothers me. So every time my honorable Crane Duelists tries to win a duel they'll probably be cheating, even if it is just a little. If you win, chances are you will end up losing a little honor.

In the previous version of the game several duelists would give you honor for wining the duel. Not make you lose honor.

Sure, I could never bid higher than 1. But the moment my opponent figures that out I will lose most duels because they know exactly what I will bid and just need to go one higher.

The concept isn't that every time you bid higher than 1 you are cheating, it is that bidding higher than your opponent is cheating. In Rokugan dishonor isn't just using sneaky tactics, but it is about being too sneaky and tactical lol.

I don't think I can sympathize with the idea that the honor bidding is bad - but what I could see is more support for duelists. Something like "duelist katana, 1 cost, +1/+1, and reaction - when you enter a duel the item gains an additional +1/+1 until the end of conflict." This doesn't just give support for dueling, but gives it synergy with the core of the game which is winning battles. I like your idea as well, you could have "kakita blade, 1 cost, +2/-, reaction: when honor bids are revealed for a duel the attached character is participating in, reduce any honor loss you may suffer by 1 per honored character you control"

On 8/21/2017 at 8:28 PM, Wintersong said:

Release date. To next friday.

Seriously. I've avoided spoilers to a point as I don't like knowing everything about a game before I play it, but right now the only thing I want is for it to be in my hands. I've reached a point of "tired of waiting for it" and the momentum of the excitement is going to fade if we don't get this show on the road! Its time for us to play Legend of the Five Rings, we are ready!

19 hours ago, TechnoGolem said:

Sorry but you are missing my point. The concept that every time you bid more than 1 you are cheating bothers me. So every time my honorable Crane Duelists tries to win a duel they'll probably be cheating, even if it is just a little. If you win, chances are you will end up losing a little honor.

In the previous version of the game several duelists would give you honor for wining the duel. Not make you lose honor.

Sure, I could never bid higher than 1. But the moment my opponent figures that out I will lose most duels because they know exactly what I will bid and just need to go one higher.

I mean technically the whole idea of the Crane mastering the art of iaijutsu, and then declaring iaijutsu to be the jade standard for dueling, isn't exactly playing fair...

2 minutes ago, Ide Yoshiya said:

I mean technically the whole idea of the Crane mastering the art of iaijutsu, and then declaring iaijutsu to be the jade standard for dueling, isn't exactly playing fair...

The Crane do pretty.

They don't do do fair.

but I see your point.?

Why would a crane ever challenge someone to a duel, then bid higher then one.... dueling is supposed to be used to tax honor out of your opponent.

"Oh, your attacking my province? Give me an honor or two or I send all but one home and guarantee the province's safety."

You want to use the duel to pressure the opponent into feeding you bits of honor so you can better honor run, then late game the duels become some of the best actions in the game, because your opponent dare not feed you any more honor, so they dare not bid more then one.

Granted... honor is tricky to play right now, but I think dueling has an important place that we haven't fully seen yet. Like all political win conditions, I expect them to suck for the first 6 months until we have a more filled out card pool.

On 8/24/2017 at 3:37 AM, Tabris2k said:

Yeah, I always found it funny that a lot of Scorpion Players didn't know this tale is the reason their whole clan wear masks.

The biggest lie is that it needed the frog. By pretending to need the frog the frog helped the Scorpion to the middle of a secluded river. And the Scorpion could safely leave the frog to die.

20 hours ago, TechnoGolem said:

Sorry but you are missing my point. The concept that every time you bid more than 1 you are cheating bothers me. So every time my honorable Crane Duelists tries to win a duel they'll probably be cheating, even if it is just a little. If you win, chances are you will end up losing a little honor.

In the previous version of the game several duelists would give you honor for wining the duel. Not make you lose honor.

Sure, I could never bid higher than 1. But the moment my opponent figures that out I will lose most duels because they know exactly what I will bid and just need to go one higher.

I have loved the duels in this game. My only problem has been that Dragon can't pull honor or dishonor as well as Crane.

So far as I have played. Cranes don't lose duels. They win by bowing their opponent, they win by gaining honor, they win by sending their enemies home, they win by taking honor and going home.

Played right a Crane never loses when they duel.

That is why I like dueling in this game.

Now Dragon just needs a few cards to match.

On ‎8‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 1:08 AM, Zesu Shadaban said:

Or you have the Dragon duelist who will straight up single out your guy on the battlefield and challenge him to a duel. And you have to decide if you want to win at all costs, or if you're willing to sacrifice fate (or your character, if it has no fate and loses and is therefore discarded) to maintain your honor.

I could see an attachment to the effect of: "Cost: 2 Fate. +1/+1. Attach only to a Duelist character you control. Action: When attached character is participating in a duel, bow this attachment - this attachment gives the attached character +2/+2 instead until the end of the duel." (Random example not balanced for actual gameplay).

I like that idea. I imagine proper dueling blades would be balanced a little differently from regular fighting blades, so it would make a lot of sense to have Duelist-only weapons that get stronger in a duel.

On ‎8‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 4:09 AM, shosuko said:

Honestly - I wonder if you actually want dueling... If you want to automatically win a duel, why have a duel? Why not just have a normal action ability? The point of a duel is that there is some risk involved, that is why the abilities are so powerful (Raitsugu kills people, Kaizen sends EVERYONE home for a 1v1 or he can send himself home to punk out your opponent and come back in the next conflict, Duelist training bows someone which is crazy good in this game, seriously - how many bow actions are there? and this costs just 1 and can be used every turn!) Further you can easily win a duel just by dropping some FREE equips that give +2 MIL which are practically auto-include anyway...

I challenge you to explain your position better. Why do you want a duel instead of a simple ability?

Oh boy... the bidding system is the best system in the game! It is a total mind game! Best of all - there are no right answers. Bidding 5 and giving your opponent 4 honor can feel really painful, but if you can choke out their hand with all of your extra cards then you can win! If you bid 1 and take some honor, you can pressure your opponent with your own honor win, or just dump it into an assassination for a FREE removal, especially if they end up dropping some conflict cards to boost a 2 cost character... Oh man the bidding is intense!

You've sent a Duelist to face me, which means you want to win the duel, and would have bid high. I do not want you to win the duel, and so I can clearly not choose a low bid.

But you would have known that I didn't want you to win the duel, and that I would therefore bid high, and so you may have bid low to force me to give you a wealth of Honor! So I can clearly not choose the high bid!

...can we just settle this with iocane powder, instead?

20 hours ago, TechnoGolem said:

Sorry but you are missing my point. The concept that every time you bid more than 1 you are cheating bothers me. So every time my honorable Crane Duelists tries to win a duel they'll probably be cheating, even if it is just a little. If you win, chances are you will end up losing a little honor.

In the previous version of the game several duelists would give you honor for wining the duel. Not make you lose honor.

Sure, I could never bid higher than 1. But the moment my opponent figures that out I will lose most duels because they know exactly what I will bid and just need to go one higher.

...and right when they think they've got you figured out, that's when you suddenly bid 3 to 1-over their 1-over!

1 hour ago, TheItsyBitsySpider said:

Why would a crane ever challenge someone to a duel, then bid higher then one.... dueling is supposed to be used to tax honor out of your opponent.

"Oh, your attacking my province? Give me an honor or two or I send all but one home and guarantee the province's safety."

You want to use the duel to pressure the opponent into feeding you bits of honor so you can better honor run, then late game the duels become some of the best actions in the game, because your opponent dare not feed you any more honor, so they dare not bid more then one.

Granted... honor is tricky to play right now, but I think dueling has an important place that we haven't fully seen yet. Like all political win conditions, I expect them to suck for the first 6 months until we have a more filled out card pool.

I think this hits the nail on the head. Winning a duel has, at least potentially, a drawback. I think dueling decks in the LCG (at least for most clans) will be less about guaranteeing a win in every duel, and more about setting it up so that whether you win or lose the duel, you gain.

Conceptually, if a 3-strength Duelist is going against a 5-strength character, it sounds to me like the Duelist got cocky and mouthed off to the wrong person. He shouldn't expect to win based on skill alone, especially if he mouthed off to an armored bushi (I could be wrong, but Iaijutsu doesn't look like it was really meant to be used against armor)!

And I don't think bidding high has to necessarily involve cheating, per say, but could have other factors. For instance, maybe, in his desire to win, the Duelist focused too much on strength and simply overpowered his opponent rather than sticking to a disciplined stroke.