I tried searching for this but couldn't find it anywhere.

With Hip Shooting, can you combine it with a Semi- or Full-Auto weapon?

Thanks!

BYE

No. With Hip-Shooting, you move your full move and make a single attack, the two of which are combined together into a single full action. While we could debate the intent of "a single attack" ad nauseum, IMO, its pretty clear that they mean a single standard attack.

Cheers.

Doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of hip shooting though? Hip shooting is generally done with automatic weapons, so it doesn't really make sense to fire a single shot while hip shooting, from a purely hypothetical standpoint.

Hmm... I think I'll discuss it with my players.

BYE

I would like to counter your point FoxPhoenix, with nearly every Western movie ever made.

(Note that I'm not saying the rules don't leave it open to interpretation, just that the word 'single' speaks pretty loudly to me.)

The Boy Named Crow said:

Using a counter example where weapons pretty much ONLY had a single shot setting (or whose semi- and full-auto weapons weren't particularly mobile) is not particularly, ehm, helpful when discussing the use of hip shooting with semi- and full-auto weapons.

Unusualsuspect said:

Hmm...

Alright, that's true. If we were discussing hip shooting only in the context of semi/full-auto weapons, my point would be entirely irrelevant. If.

However, my examples was a response to FoxPhoenix, who seemed to be asserting that Hip Shooting had no value when not performed with a weapon firing on a fully automatic setting. I was using an example of an archetypical use of hip shooting, in this case, classic western shootouts, to point out that his assertion is clearly false. I think this makes my point not only relevant but helpful as well.

(FoxPhoenix, if I incorrectly interpreted your point, i apologize.)

It is also worth noting that the hip shooting action can only be performed with a pistol. This, I think serves to reinforce my interpretation of the intent of the rules that hip shooting be used only on a single shot setting. Like in westerns.

The Boy Named Crow said:

In the Rogue Trader rulebook, Hipshooting can be used with any ranged weapon, and specifically states that it's single-shot only. Different ruleset, certainly, but there's still a precedent there.

One thing to remember is that making a single shot takes only a half action, so Hipshooting essentially gives you an extra half action (full move, half action shot). Semi- and Full-Auto are more effective than single shot in every way (bonus to hit, chance of additional hits), and both take a full action to perform, so to full move and fire like that, you're gaining an even greater advantage (2 full action's worth of moving and shooting). My suggestion is, if you are going to allow Hip Shooting to auto-fire, then you remove the bonus to hit, or even apply a penalty (in Rogue Trader, Semi- and Full-Auto allow a half move as part of the attack's normal full action, but only for Pistol or Basic weapons, and removing the Semi-Auto bonus/replacing the Full-Auto bonus with a -10 penalty) to represent an inaccurate burst of fire on the move.

I think the reason for the rules to state that you only get one shot is because of the difficulty of aiming, shooting, AND moving all at the same time, and getting an effective hit in. (When I say aiming, I of course don't mean the Aim tactic.)

There's also the fact you have your attention split between the target, and not running into/onto what ever is in front of you. It's useful for those "Get of out Dodge with a parting shot" situations, like getting from cover to cover.

This is also a matter of game balance. Rules as written force players to decide between a number of different tactics and make tradeoffs between aggression and tactical mobility. This gives different risks and rewards for your in-game decisions. If there was no penalty (or limitation) on running circles around your foes while firing a heavy stubber on full auto in each hand then I suspect you would see alot of annoyed GMs posting about such cheese.

I HAVE adopted several of the changes in RT as if they were DH eratta, so Hip Shooting can be used with a pistol or basic class weapon to fire a single shot while making a double move. If you think about it, this is already pretty cool in and of itself.

One important thing to note is that many talents require their own distinct action to use, so you can't just randomly stack them up on top of each-other for one UBER-action. If you have the Hip Shooting talent then the full turn "Hip Shooting" action gets added to your character's list of options. This is one of the reasons why a character who has both Swift Attack and Lightning Attack cannot make FIVE attacks in close combat! Each is a distinctly different action, with Lightning Attack effectively replacing Swift Attack (but a character with both could opt to use the lesser talent if they really want to). This adds dramatic decisions to your game. Does a melee-specialist character use Lightning Attack to make three normal strikes or do they instead opt for Dual Strike and one potentially BRUTAL hit? Multiple talents are more about adding OPTIONS than munchkinism. Fortunately Dark Heresy characters are intrinsically bad ass, so the "need" to munchkin out should be fairly silly to most players.

You are able to shoot whilst on the move. As a full action, you may simultaneously move up to your Full move Rate and make a single attack with a pistol.

As a Semi/Full auto is a Full Action I interpret that you may use any attack with a pistol that is half an action. A house rule could be added that you may use semi/full but you will not gain the +20.

Purely rules as written I'm pretty sure that semi/full is a single attack action (which can achieve multiple hits but is nonetheless a single attack).

Rules as intended certainly seems like it would suggest only a single shot is allowed. Though at the same time you could take this to mean that you're not allowed to use two-weapon fighting if you are holding two pistols (which would in effect be 2 attacks instead of 1). The problem with rules as intended is that you dont know exactly what was intended.

They probably should have worded it 'standard attack' instead of 'single attack'. Though it is true to say that in the rate of fire description in the beginning of chapter V the word 'singly' is used to describe the single shot firing mode of a gun. Still, it could be worded more clearly and purely RAW I think all fire modes would be allowed under the current wording of the relevant rules (though it is debatable, as we have seen in this and many an other thread .

(nevermind, someone else already got it)

-Kirov

One might take a hint from RT wherein you're allowed a semi auto burst and a half action move but loose the +10. Full auto and half action move not only looses the bonus but incurs a -10 penalty aswell. In RT you don't even need hip shooting to pull it of but my preferene would be that it's required.

I think the only reason why you can't semi/full auto is game balance. Just like you cannot normally move AB meters and shoot a full-auto burst in the same round, even if doing somthing like that is entirely possible in RL.

Also, having experienced Hip shooting in my own game I can tell you it is more than decent as it is.. one of the best talents in the game for shooters.

You can move to an opponent, get in a shot at Point-Blank range (nice for heavy pistols/bolters), and then move away again denying the enemy the same bonus or even giving you total cover. It works best if you have a good agility and therefore speed (Scum excel at this).