2 hours ago, Princezilla said:

The EU was hugely inconsistent in this, and in many other things, one of the biggest reasons it had to go. For example, in Specter of the Past Pellaeon paints being forced to utilize non TIE craft just to stay relevant as a huge indicator of the Empire's decline. The Blastboat, like the Gunboat, was only in a small number of sources mostly by the same creators but within those sources their importance and widespreadness within the Empire was played up to huge degree that doesn't match their total absence from the movies and most other media. It was part of the EU's larger problem where the lack of any sort of meaning oversight allowed individual writers to try and completely alter the state of universe to play up their own pet creations or theories and it resulted in numerous wildly contradictory takes on the overall universe that often even ran counter to what was in the movies.

Well the GUNBOAT, DX-9 Transport and many other 'off screen' craft existed in the sim games for reasons of needed shielded craft, having a heavily armed transport vehicle, or graphical limitations.

The OT took place in very remote sections of the galaxy and thus had little presence of Imperial armed forces until Rebel activity was spotted. Then entire fleets of ISDs were deployed to those spots. This implied that ISDs are the primary ship to project overwhelming power in the name of sabatoge or dire security breaches when there is a minimal Imperial presence. ISDs are basically mobile garrisons, battle stations and patrol craft all in one.

In the more populous systems there may indeed be more numerous but smaller craft that more effectively police the massive traffic and interactions within the Empire. IPVs, Decimator, Skiprays, Escort shuttles, Gunboats, Assault transports, ect. could be used for customs duties and patrol fat from rebellious war zones, but nevertheless may see action if and when the Rebels decide a certain transport convoy needed to be 'liberated'.

17 hours ago, SabineKey said:

And while I will not challenge your hate, I would like to ask what you would prefer in its place? It can fit a hole in the Imperial ranks as a non-shuttle big based ship with turret potential that doesn't cost Decimator levels of points. Not a lot of options for that role.

I agree there aren't many options. I just really hate the design of the Skipray, but that being said I really like the Phantom 2 (CIS sheathipede shuttle) design and I seem to be one of few.

I would personally prefer to see a bunch of other non-turreted imperial large ships first, but in terms of a cheaper turreted large ship my pick would be the YE-4 Gunship. I like the design much more, and its in keeping with the sentinel/lambda class shuttles aesthetic.

39 minutes ago, BVRCH said:

I agree there aren't many options. I just really hate the design of the Skipray, but that being said I really like the Phantom 2 (CIS sheathipede shuttle) design and I seem to be one of few.

I would personally prefer to see a bunch of other non-turreted imperial large ships first, but in terms of a cheaper turreted large ship my pick would be the YE-4 Gunship. I like the design much more, and its in keeping with the sentinel/lambda class shuttles aesthetic.

The YE-4 looks pretty good, though it doesn't appear to have turrets from the article I found.

For me, the Blastboat's visual look (which I'm neutral on) takes a back seat to the list of features it brings to the table, including recognition and connection to characters. It has all the makings of being exactly what I think the Empire needs right now, over other ships I would prefer on an aesthetic basis.

As for the Phantom II, I actually agree. I didn't much like that class of shuttle until the Phantom II repaint. Heh, goes to show what a fun paint job can do for a ship.

1 hour ago, GrimmyV said:

Well the GUNBOAT, DX-9 Transport and many other 'off screen' craft existed in the sim games for reasons of needed shielded craft, having a heavily armed transport vehicle, or graphical limitations.

The OT took place in very remote sections of the galaxy and thus had little presence of Imperial armed forces until Rebel activity was spotted. Then entire fleets of ISDs were deployed to those spots. This implied that ISDs are the primary ship to project overwhelming power in the name of sabatoge or dire security breaches when there is a minimal Imperial presence. ISDs are basically mobile garrisons, battle stations and patrol craft all in one.

In the more populous systems there may indeed be more numerous but smaller craft that more effectively police the massive traffic and interactions within the Empire. IPVs, Decimator, Skiprays, Escort shuttles, Gunboats, Assault transports, ect. could be used for customs duties and patrol fat from rebellious war zones, but nevertheless may see action if and when the Rebels decide a certain transport convoy needed to be 'liberated'.

Not really, Alderaan was hardly remote and they went all in at Endor for the trap so they're absence there is stretching it. And that's ignoring the're lack of presence during the Thrawn saga and other major arcs. The game reasoning is true but their existence is those was given entirely too much canon weight by some.

54 minutes ago, BVRCH said:

I agree there aren't many options. I just really hate the design of the Skipray, but that being said I really like the Phantom 2 (CIS sheathipede shuttle) design and I seem to be one of few.

I would personally prefer to see a bunch of other non-turreted imperial large ships first, but in terms of a cheaper turreted large ship my pick would be the YE-4 Gunship. I like the design much more, and its in keeping with the sentinel/lambda class shuttles aesthetic.

Honestly I'm of the opinion that not every faction needs to have the same strengths. The Empire's lore just doesn't have the kind of highly customized or repurposed frieghter sized ships that Rebels and Scum do because that wasn't how they functioned. Gamewise Rebels relyed on gimics like turrets and regen on bulky balenced ships while the Empire was much more about zippy arc dodgers and floating fortresses who relyed on theirvraw statlines and dials without a whole lot of frills. Scums less defined but leans strongly towards trollish tactics and 'cheating' by creating exceptions to main rules. The factions don't need to congruent to be balenced.

4 minutes ago, Princezilla said:

Not really, Alderaan was hardly remote and they went all in at Endor for the trap so they're absence there is stretching it. And that's ignoring the're lack of presence during the Thrawn saga and other major arcs. The game reasoning is true but their existence is those was given entirely too much canon weight by some.

Honestly I'm of the opinion that not every faction needs to have the same strengths. The Empire's lore just doesn't have the kind of highly customized or repurposed frieghter sized ships that Rebels and Scum do because that wasn't how they functioned. Gamewise Rebels relyed on gimics like turrets and regen on bulky balenced ships while the Empire was much more about zippy arc dodgers and floating fortresses who relyed on theirvraw statlines and dials without a whole lot of frills. Scums less defined but leans strongly towards trollish tactics and 'cheating' by creating exceptions to main rules. The factions don't need to congruent to be balenced.

But the problem is that as is, that separation of play styles have failed several times over. There is already a great deal of mixing of capabilities across the factions and the uniqueness to the imperial style isn't performing. And while I do not advocate for total homogeny, there are ways to give the different factions very similar pieces and have them still be different (see Interceptors and Fangs).

And as far as the Thrawn Saga goes, the Blastboat was a part of that, though by that time, they were in the hands of criminal organizations, like Talon Karrde's smuggling group.

35 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

For me, the Blastboat's visual look (which I'm neutral on) takes a back seat to the list of features it brings to the table, including recognition and connection to characters. It has all the makings of being exactly what I think the Empire needs right now, over other ships I would prefer on an aesthetic basis.

100% agree. I would like to get a Sith Infiltrator for the "coolness factor" but this ship would fix a huge gap the faction has at the moment. Though having a good cloaking large ship with the potential for many new game mechanics would still be awesome :-)

I'd like to see a force push or a force lightning done from a ship to another ship. Lightning would most likely give ion and/or weapon disabled tokens. Push would allow you to move the ship backward by 1 or 2 speed. We've seen force users move/control much bigger objects. Vader as a pilot for the Infiltrator could do the trick. Or maybe that could be an interesting potential ability for Snoke...

12 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

And while I do not advocate for total homogeny, there are ways to give the different factions very similar pieces and have them still be different (see Interceptors and Fangs).

Yeah like they could give the Imperials Hull regen (or repair) instead of shield regen :-)

1 hour ago, SabineKey said:

The YE-4 looks pretty good, though it doesn't appear to have turrets from the article I found.

For me, the Blastboat's visual look (which I'm neutral on) takes a back seat to the list of features it brings to the table, including recognition and connection to characters. It has all the makings of being exactly what I think the Empire needs right now, over other ships I would prefer on an aesthetic basis.

As for the Phantom II, I actually agree. I didn't much like that class of shuttle until the Phantom II repaint. Heh, goes to show what a fun paint job can do for a ship.

It has 2 forward cannons, and 5 turrets. 2 front mounted ball turrets, 2 dorsal turrets, and a rear ball turret. I think the Galaxies wiki gives the most info on the ship.

The paint job is awesome! Although I did like the old separatist version as well. I think I come at the idea of new ships from a different angle, my first thought is 'does it fit the bill' in terms of faction aesthetic and tactics. I personally don't think the Skipray does, but I can see its potential in terms of game design, and I can see why people would want it. I kinda feel the same way about the gunboat (starwing) but at least that has that Sienar ship look.

1 hour ago, Princezilla said:

Honestly I'm of the opinion that not every faction needs to have the same strengths. The Empire's lore just doesn't have the kind of highly customized or repurposed frieghter sized ships that Rebels and Scum do because that wasn't how they functioned. Gamewise Rebels relyed on gimics like turrets and regen on bulky balenced ships while the Empire was much more about zippy arc dodgers and floating fortresses who relyed on theirvraw statlines and dials without a whole lot of frills. Scums less defined but leans strongly towards trollish tactics and 'cheating' by creating exceptions to main rules. The factions don't need to congruent to be balenced.

I completely agree. The factions play differently due to their diegetic influence, I see the imperial style as focused aggression and overwhelming the enemy. That being said, some people really want to play imperials even though they don't really fit the play style. I can see why people would want a variation of ships to allow for more choice, I personally want more high agility arc dodgers for my rebels (WHERES MY RESISTANCE A_WING!). I think the best way to introduce 'non-imperial' values ships in the imperial faction is through affiliated characters that aren't traditionally a part of the empire e.g. Aphra in the Ark Angel, Gar Saxon in a Gauntlet, Chanath Cha in the Scimitar etc. They give an iconic variation to the imperial mantra with their own unique style, instead of borrowing game archetypes from the other factions. However I do think those ships fit the bill a bit more than the Skipray even if it was technically an imperial design.

1 hour ago, Princezilla said:

Honestly I'm of the opinion that not every faction needs to have the same strengths. The Empire's lore just doesn't have the kind of highly customized or repurposed frieghter sized ships that Rebels and Scum do because that wasn't how they functioned. Gamewise Rebels relyed on gimics like turrets and regen on bulky balenced ships while the Empire was much more about zippy arc dodgers and floating fortresses who relyed on theirvraw statlines and dials without a whole lot of frills. Scums less defined but leans strongly towards trollish tactics and 'cheating' by creating exceptions to main rules. The factions don't need to congruent to be balenced.

53 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

But the problem is that as is, that separation of play styles have failed several times over. There is already a great deal of mixing of capabilities across the factions and the uniqueness to the imperial style isn't performing. And while I do not advocate for total homogeny, there are ways to give the different factions very similar pieces and have them still be different (see Interceptors and Fangs).

19 minutes ago, BVRCH said:

The factions play differently due to their diegetic influence, I see the imperial style as focused aggression and overwhelming the enemy.

IMHO what the Empire is missing is the officers' corps. Right now the Empire is all starfighters and not much else. The other major thing that the Empire has in terms of power (in the lore) is government/administration/status quo. This is not really represented at all. Now, of course the game cannot include ISDs and other capital ships, which would be the true representation of such power, BUT it could use an ersatz representation of such power as important Imperial officer crew members (and, yes, the shuttles that carry them) that can aid the starfighters in doing their job better.

The Empire needs better crew and ships to carry them.

11 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

IMHO what the Empire is missing is the officers' corps. Right now the Empire is all starfighters and not much else. The other major thing that the Empire has in terms of power (in the lore) is government/administration/status quo. This is not really represented at all. Now, of course the game cannot include ISDs and other capital ships, which would be the true representation of such power, BUT it could use an ersatz representation of such power as important Imperial officer crew members (and, yes, the shuttles that carry them) that can aid the starfighters in doing their job better.

The Empire needs better crew and ships to carry them.

That's a good point. Rebels have squad/guerrilla tactics, Scum play by there lonesome, and Imperials have a high command (well not so much in game). Palp WAS a sort of command type card, but I agree there should be more crew with wide spread command effects, to control and direct the squad like the Imperials should. Swarm leader is a great example of the kind of tactics I feel the Imperials should be able to employ. All the more reason to field the shuttles gathering dust after the Palp nerf as well. Thrawn would be a great opportunity for this command type crew.

26 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

IMHO what the Empire is missing is the officers' corps. Right now the Empire is all starfighters and not much else. The other major thing that the Empire has in terms of power (in the lore) is government/administration/status quo. This is not really represented at all. Now, of course the game cannot include ISDs and other capital ships, which would be the true representation of such power, BUT it could use an ersatz representation of such power as important Imperial officer crew members (and, yes, the shuttles that carry them) that can aid the starfighters in doing their job better.

The Empire needs better crew and ships to carry them.

They've dabbled in this with the faction specific none unique officers but there could definitely stand to be more. Also I really wish Tarkin wasn't epic only.

58 minutes ago, BVRCH said:

It has 2 forward cannons, and 5 turrets. 2 front mounted ball turrets, 2 dorsal turrets, and a rear ball turret. I think the Galaxies wiki gives the most info on the ship.

The paint job is awesome! Although I did like the old separatist version as well. I think I come at the idea of new ships from a different angle, my first thought is 'does it fit the bill' in terms of faction aesthetic and tactics. I personally don't think the Skipray does, but I can see its potential in terms of game design, and I can see why people would want it. I kinda feel the same way about the gunboat (starwing) but at least that has that Sienar ship look.

Hmm. Wookipedia lists its armaments as cannons rather than turrets. Odd. Anyway, at this point, I'll take either if not both.

31 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

IMHO what the Empire is missing is the officers' corps. Right now the Empire is all starfighters and not much else. The other major thing that the Empire has in terms of power (in the lore) is government/administration/status quo. This is not really represented at all. Now, of course the game cannot include ISDs and other capital ships, which would be the true representation of such power, BUT it could use an ersatz representation of such power as important Imperial officer crew members (and, yes, the shuttles that carry them) that can aid the starfighters in doing their job better.

The Empire needs better crew and ships to carry them.

Which is exactly a service something like the Blastboat can provide. A service the Imp Firespray could do, if it could preform better.

1 hour ago, SabineKey said:

Hmm. Wookipedia lists its armaments as cannons rather than turrets. Odd. Anyway, at this point, I'll take either if not both.

Which is exactly a service something like the Blastboat can provide. A service the Imp Firespray could do, if it could preform better.

This image shows the turrets pretty well. None of them rotate a full 360 due to the ships own obstructions, similar to the TIE Aggressor, so they're strategically placed to cover every side of the ship.

If the game where set up like the movies then the Empire would get to field three times the points as other factions but Rebel Scummies could flee the board and not be destroyed for half points.

Its like the rebs would have 3 x-wings and an A-wing while the Empire gets to send in 2 raiders, 3 gozantis with TIEs, 2 Decimators, 3 Defenders, 5 GUNBOATS, and a handful of other hyperdrive ready ships. If the rebs didn't get done with their objectives in time then the only thing they can do is bug out.

9 hours ago, Princezilla said:

Not really, Alderaan was hardly remote and they went all in at Endor for the trap so they're absence there is stretching it. And that's ignoring the're lack of presence during the Thrawn saga and other major arcs. The game reasoning is true but their existence is those was given entirely too much canon weight by some.

Sure, Alderaan wasn't remote, but we saw it only on a planetary scale in the movies- the massive distances do explain the percieved emptiness of its "immediate" surroundings, otherwise, there would be some serious explaining to do to thow why there were absolutely z ero ships visible during most of the scene. Seriously, not even the single star destroyer we saw dock earlier was outside? No Skiprays there then, either.

Also, I seem to remember a Skipray being present at the skirmish on Myrkyr, and later during The Last Command they're named during Karrde's attack on the Star Destroyer in the drydock as well as at the shipyard facility before Thrawn's death, since you brought it up.

They're usually depicted as being at the fringes of conflict in this trilogy, seldomly being directly ordered to do something specific. They seem to be part of the standard formation whenever they crop up.

13 hours ago, Princezilla said:

The EU was hugely inconsistent in this, and in many other things, one of the biggest reasons it had to go. For example, in Specter of the Past Pellaeon paints being forced to utilize non TIE craft just to stay relevant as a huge indicator of the Empire's decline. The Blastboat, like the Gunboat, was only in a small number of sources mostly by the same creators but within those sources their importance and widespreadness within the Empire was played up to huge degree that doesn't match their total absence from the movies and most other media. It was part of the EU's larger problem where the lack of any sort of meaning oversight allowed individual writers to try and completely alter the state of universe to play up their own pet creations or theories and it resulted in numerous wildly contradictory takes on the overall universe that often even ran counter to what was in the movies.

People seem to overlook, that the Empire is in constand change regarding its power and fleet strength. Yes before Endor the Empire could afford many non TIE craft. After the fall of Coruscant and years of constant retreat they could only afford TIEs as Sienar was still loyal to the Empire. And The Hand of Thrawn (the book with the Preybirds) plays at this time period.

9 hours ago, Princezilla said:

And that's ignoring the're lack of presence during the Thrawn saga and other major arcs.

Errm, the Thrawn Trilogy had the Empire use non-TIE starfighters.

9 hours ago, BVRCH said:

The factions play differently due to their diegetic influence, I see the imperial style as focused aggression and overwhelming the enemy.

Problem #1: no more effective swarm option(s) for Imperials.

9 hours ago, BVRCH said:

That being said, some people really want to play imperials even though they don't really fit the play style. I can see why people would want a variation of ships to allow for more choice

Problem #2: Arc dodging has lost a lot of value with all the turret ships running around. Then you also have a ship that can arc dodge, has a turret, has bombs with a lot of placement options and high PS... No wonder why regular arc dodgers are struggling. Even Fenn took a drop.

9 hours ago, BVRCH said:

I think the best way to introduce 'non-imperial' values ships in the imperial faction is through affiliated characters that aren't traditionally a part of the empire e.g. Aphra in the Ark Angel, Gar Saxon in a Gauntlet, Chanath Cha in the Scimitar etc.

Only the third one has an aesthetic thats more Imperial"ish" than the Blastboat. I did not know the ship but after a research on the Internet i think thats a Sith Infiltrator, no? If thats the case we now know that Vader had one so it is Imperial... The 2nd one (Gauntlet) will most likely never be in the faction, it looks too much like the protectorate.

7 hours ago, BVRCH said:

This image shows the turrets pretty well. None of them rotate a full 360 due to the ships own obstructions, similar to the TIE Aggressor, so they're strategically placed to cover every side of the ship.

This one definitly fit with the faction look. It looks like a Lambda with a bottom wing and missing the 2 top ones. Would make a crew carrier thats powerful on its own.

5 hours ago, GrimmyV said:

If the game where set up like the movies then the Empire would get to field three times the points as other factions but Rebel Scummies could flee the board and not be destroyed for half points.

Its like the rebs would have 3 x-wings and an A-wing while the Empire gets to send in 2 raiders, 3 gozantis with TIEs, 2 Decimators, 3 Defenders, 5 GUNBOATS, and a handful of other hyperdrive ready ships. If the rebs didn't get done with their objectives in time then the only thing they can do is bug out.

Actually missions can be set up like this. The Grayskull narrative at GenCon featured a number of missions where it was smarter to bug out than fight to the death. So, it's not really the game that can't do this, it's the default setting for playing the game that prohibits it.

26 minutes ago, Thormind said:

This one definitly fit with the faction look. It looks like a Lambda with a bottom wing and missing the 2 top ones. Would make a crew carrier thats powerful on its own.

I thought we were advocating for the Blastboat in this thread

42 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Actually missions can be set up like this. The Grayskull narrative at GenCon featured a number of missions where it was smarter to bug out than fight to the death. So, it's not really the game that can't do this, it's the default setting for playing the game that prohibits it.

I thought we were advocating for the Blastboat in this thread

i can do both :-)

11 hours ago, BVRCH said:

This image shows the turrets pretty well. None of them rotate a full 360 due to the ships own obstructions, similar to the TIE Aggressor, so they're strategically placed to cover every side of the ship.

Like I said, I was going off an article. And while those do indeed looks like turrets (and are based on other sources), I've been burned on going by an image before.

13 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

IMHO what the Empire is missing is the officers' corps. Right now the Empire is all starfighters and noth else. The other major thing that the Empire has in terms of power (in the lore) is government/administration/status quo. This is not really represented at all. Now, of course the game cannot include ISDs and other capital ships, which would be the true representation of such power, BUT it could use an ersatz representation of such power as important Imperial officer crew members (and, yes, the shuttles that carry them) that can aid the starfighters in doing their job better.

The Empire needs better crew and ships to carry them.

Well we actuaslly do have the crew. The problem is that the standard point sizes are too small to take advantage of it. If a Lambda/Upsilon with support crew wasnt half your list it wouldnt be a problem.

Thats why we should move to 150 point games.

1 hour ago, BadMotivator said:

Well we actuaslly do have the crew. The problem is that the standard point sizes are too small to take advantage of it. If a Lambda/Upsilon with support crew wasnt half your list it wouldnt be a problem.

Thats why we should move to 150 point games.

Well, maybe they should make a shuttle that doesn't double as a gunboat. Drop the 3 and 4 attack dice to 1 and let it be a purely support vessel instead of a large fighter with a viewing gallery for special guests as crew.

Not arguing against 150 points in any way, OTOH, since I routinely play at 200-300.

10 hours ago, Thormind said:

Problem #1: no more effective swarm option(s) for Imperials.

Problem #2: Arc dodging has lost a lot of value with all the turret ships running around. Then you also have a ship that can arc dodge, has a turret, has bombs with a lot of placement options and high PS... No wonder why regular arc dodgers are struggling. Even Fenn took a drop.

Only the third one has an aesthetic thats more Imperial"ish" than the Blastboat. I did not know the ship but after a research on the Internet i think thats a Sith Infiltrator, no? If thats the case we now know that Vader had one so it is Imperial... The 2nd one (Gauntlet) will most likely never be in the faction, it looks too much like the protectorate.

This one definitly fit with the faction look. It looks like a Lambda with a bottom wing and missing the 2 top ones. Would make a crew carrier thats powerful on its own.

I don't think you really got my meaning. I was discussing what the imperials should feel like, or more accurately what I want the imperials to feel like, not what the meta currently is for imps. They should have more upgrades that benefit the swarm to make them usable again etc. but they don't have anything right now that helps or encourages that play style.

That's exactly my point. I would like the 'generic' imperial ships to have a common imperial aesthetic. That's why I suggested the YE-4 over the Skipray. If people want 'non-standard' imperial ships, then I think they should be through more distinguished characters with their own unique ships, that partnered with the empire at some point e.g. the three I mentioned, and Boba Fett/Slave 1 etc.

Correct, 'Scimitar' is the title of Darth Maul's Sith Infiltrator.

6 hours ago, SabineKey said:

Like I said, I was going off an article. And while those do indeed looks like turrets (and are based on other sources), I've been burned on going by an image before.

That's fair, conflicting info happens on the internet. Like I said earlier, the SWGalaxies wiki article states that they are turrets (It was a playable ship in Galaxies). I see the wookieepedia article doesn't, I guess it depends on which one you want to believe.

8 hours ago, SabineKey said:

Like I said, I was going off an article. And while those do indeed looks like turrets (and are based on other sources), I've been burned on going by an image before.

Hrm...must say, that's an interesting looking ship.

But...that ventral fin. I can't quite get my head around - how is it going to land?