Pretty sure Legion is going to be the final nail in runewars' coffin. That game was already struggling, this is going to kill it.

Also, just a gentle reminder that wh40k played a pretty big role in warhammer fantasy battle's death.

Also, I don't know where the notion of people interested in fantasy and people interested in science fantasy being vastly different groups comes from. From my experience an overwhelming majority of people dig either both or neither.

Do we have any concrete information about whether Runewars is struggling or not?

4 minutes ago, Elavion said:

Also, just a gentle reminder that wh40k played a pretty big role in warhammer fantasy battle's death.

Since when? WFB was on 8th edition when they converted over to AoS which is actually doing quite well. 40k had nothing to do with the death of it.

Warhammer Fantasy sold terribly...that was the whole reason for the AoS reboot. 40k was responsible for almost their entire revenue, and received the lions share of resource in return, which made the cycle worse.

AoS is now doing well, but WFB failed devastatingly by the end.

5 minutes ago, VanorDM said:

Since when? WFB was on 8th edition when they converted over to AoS which is actually doing quite well. 40k had nothing to do with the death of it.

AoS came because wfb was collapsing. I've seen a lot of people move away from wfb and into 40k prior to it's release.

1 minute ago, Elavion said:

AoS came because wfb was collapsing.

And that was due to bloated rules and GW's general inept rules writing... It had nothing to do with people playing 40k. Also WFB was always on the edge in terms of sales, it was profitable but only just.

1 minute ago, Elavion said:

I've seen a lot of people move away from wfb and into 40k prior to it's release.

Because again, WFB was a mess and needed to be restarted. AoS on the other hand has from everything I've heard done fairly well, at least better than WFB did.

Whilst the death of the old setting will forever burn me to my soul (I grew up on the Old World :(), it has to be said that AoS is now very fun.

It was pretty weak on release though, they have improved it a lot since then.

8 minutes ago, Elavion said:

AoS came because wfb was collapsing. I've seen a lot of people move away from wfb and into 40k prior to it's release.

Yet now AoS is doing great, so it doesn't really pan out for a comparison.

24 minutes ago, Elavion said:

Pretty sure Legion is going to be the final nail in runewars' coffin. That game was already struggling, this is going to kill it.

Also, just a gentle reminder that wh40k played a pretty big role in warhammer fantasy battle's death.

The only thing that killed Warhammer Fantasy was Warhammer Fantasy. It was a tragically flawed game, with rules problems, balance issues and severe legacy problems with army books. The general Warhammer Fantasy fans played it because they loved the lore, they loved the miniatures and they wanted it to be good. It survived for so long, all despite the rules which was the important lesson here for FFG.

The fundamental draw to miniatures games is what's behind them. Its why X-Wing and Armada where such blow out hits, because we are all Star Wars fans at heart and its why Warhammer 40k never truly dies, because the world is so fleshed out and unique and its also why Runewars has not been nearly as explosive and present as it should be with its fantastic ruleset. Runewars just doesn't have the lore books, the art work, just in general the franchise for it to succeed. They made a mistake choosing their own Fantasy World to base a fantasy miniature game on and I think the game will trail along for a while and suffer a fairly premature departure to the back of the bus where it will live out its days as "that game that had a great mechanic but a crappy world". That however has nothing to do with Legion or any other game, that flaw is on FFG and on Runewars itself, it really was a simple failure to understand why people played miniatures game and they should have used that bit of history about Warhammer Fantasy as a lesson, which noteably they seemed to misunderstand in a wierd oppossite way.

Rather then realizing the reason people played Warhammer Fantasy for decades was because of the lore, the mini's and the franchise, they assumed that the reason people didn't play Warhammer Fantasy was because the rules sucked. While partially true, they should have understood that it was a game that lasted for decades despite its crappy rules, and not focused on it failing because of its crappy rules. They skimped on the lore and on the importance of franchise, story, art and the addictive RPG infused nature that is the makeup of a typical miniatures gamer in Runewars and that is why its failing.

From a perspective of design, Runewars is simply amazing, but its lack of a good backbone is killing it slowly.

3 hours ago, player1750031 said:

I have a suspicion that there already isn't enough people buying Runewars for FFG's liking, but that's a discussion for a different thread.

In the in flight session it was stated that Runewars is a success for them.

My perhaps final thought on this...

Legion will do no more damage to RW then as I said, Overwatch did to WoW (or any other MMO). What it may very well do is kill IA's skirmish game, which was IMO poor to start with and never got any better. I enjoyed the campaign side of IA but the skirmish was always rather inferior to a real skirmish game.

28 minutes ago, Braneric said:

Do we have any concrete information about whether Runewars is struggling or not?

No, we don't. No company announces from a mountaintop that one of their product lines is not selling. However, there have been some comments to that effect from people within the distribution chain.

Legion will hurt Runewars.

I see several cases like myself all over the place, and none to the contrary: I held off on RW because I was not interested in the basic game factions, and wanted to play Latari. Just days before the Latari releasing, news of Legion hits. I decided instantly to skip RW entirely, because we all know FFG supports more if more money is earnt (see X-Wing vs. Armada release schedule), and more support means a better game.

Also, Star Wars is a vastly superior setting to draw in players, and the ONLY chance to get decent player numbers is to put in a good start.

RuneWars had a slow start, very small scope and its only slowly expanding. I see no reason to believe there will be enough RW players around come January, but there are enough Legion players starting then for sure.

12 minutes ago, Extropia said:

Whilst the death of the old setting will forever burn me to my soul (I grew up on the Old World :(), it has to be said that AoS is now very fun.

It was pretty weak on release though, they have improved it a lot since then.

Personally I will also never forgive them for the unnecessary destruction of the old world. Because of that, even if AoS would eventually become like WHFB I would not buy it.

Runewars is great! The mechanics (especially the double command dial) are fantastic and I just hope that Legion does not have too much of an impact saleswise.

I will play both games but honestly I think the Runewars mechanics /rules are better than what I have seen so far from Legion. If there wouldn't be Speederbikes i would stick with Imperial Assault.

1 minute ago, player1750031 said:

No, we don't. No company announces from a mountaintop that one of their product lines is not selling. However, there have been some comments to that effect from people within the distribution chain.

There is certainly an overstock of Runewars which is a sure fire sign that at least they miscalculated is popularity. I recall when X-Wing and Armada came out, ****, if you didn't pre-order you were unlikely to get in on the first round of prints. Even today a lot of Armada and X_Wing stuff can be hard to get. Runewars, there is inventory for everything everywhere.

3 hours ago, Elavion said:

Also, I don't know where the notion of people interested in fantasy and people interested in science fantasy being vastly different groups comes from. From my experience an overwhelming majority of people dig either both or neither.

Obviously this is anecdotal, but in my experience a lot of people only care about one. I don't hate fantasy, but I don't particularity like it either. Endless love for sci-fi though. I have a couple friends who feel like I do and a few who feel the opposite. And of course plenty who like both genres.

"RuneWars is selling poorly."

Any non-anecdotal evidence? If not, please stop posting this disinformation.

The actual issue is that RW and SW Legion appear to have similar core target demographics, i.e., people new to miniatures gaming.

6 minutes ago, Manchu said:

"RuneWars is selling poorly."

Any non-anecdotal evidence? If not, please stop posting this disinformation.

The actual issue is that RW and SW Legion appear to have similar core target demographics, i.e., people new to miniatures gaming.

All I can tell you is that at our national trade group there's a good amount of people trying to get rid of their RW minis and not a lot of buyers.

Can you describe what you mean by national trade group? (As in, is this a Facebook group - and, if so, wouldn't that be anecdotal? Or do you mean some kind of group of retailers sharing sales data?)

Did Armada destroy X-Wing?

Move along, move along.

6 hours ago, Elavion said:

Also, just a gentle reminder that wh40k played a pretty big role in warhammer fantasy battle's death.

Nah. It was a fundamental mismanagement of the game for the better part of a decade. Again, had I not already had fantasy miniatures, I would have been all about Runewars. Kings of War is probably the greatest obstacle to Runewars. It's a pretty awesome ruleset that has really taken off in the former Fantasy circles. Legion simply does not factor into the equation when it comes to Runewars.

21 hours ago, Aurelus said:

... says thanks for nothing FFG.

At least they didn't make Legion a reskin of Runewars.

4 hours ago, Cade Bulkin said:

Obviously this is anecdotal, but in my experience a lot of people only care about one. I don't hate fantasy, but I don't particularity like it either. Endless love for sci-fi though. I have a couple friends who feel like I do and a few who feel the opposite. And of course plenty who like both genres.

I am equally into both Science Fiction and Fantasy, and will say, at least for me, what kept me from Rune Wars was being unfamiliar with the setting. The core set had two very generic sides, from an aesthetic standpoint, and the lore book didn't do it for me to drag me in. If this had been a LOTR-based rank and file wargame I would be playing that now instead of drooling over Legion. I also prefer Armada's method of moving units to X-Wings, and Legion looks to have more in common with Armada.

1 minute ago, Caldias said:

I am equally into both Science Fiction and Fantasy, and will say, at least for me, what kept me from Rune Wars was being unfamiliar with the setting. The core set had two very generic sides, from an aesthetic standpoint, and the lore book didn't do it for me to drag me in. If this had been a LOTR-based rank and file wargame I would be playing that now instead of drooling over Legion. I also prefer Armada's method of moving units to X-Wings, and Legion looks to have more in common with Armada.

I almost started playing it just because I like the rock guys. I decided against it because I realized all I was interested in was the rock guys.

I probably would not have cared at all if it was LOTR. I really wish I enjoyed LOTR. I just can't get into it.

I thought about getting into RuneWars, but decided not too because I've never had the patience to get competent at modeling and painting. 40k and WHFB and RuneWars' settings just don't interest me enough to make me put in the time and effort to learn to paint.

Star Wars does this though. I'll buy into this, watch painting videos and attempt to not ruin my plastic toys. But I can easily see where I might end up enjoying the painting and then, as the inevitable slow release rate of new Legion units happens, I may end up dabbling in RuneWars. So, I may be in the minority, but Legion may influence me to jump on RW.