1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

While I agree @FTS Gecko, I also think that Eide's Corran is a strong counterpoint.

He showed that a 2hull ship, admittedly with regen which was huge from what I've heard, can win the whole event.

Now Eide might be a prodigy who also put in a lot of practice. But that still shows that people could try. And more people trying makes it better for everyone else who's also trying.

Do good players default to what is percieved as easier lists when the stakes are higher?

Do these nonviable imperial ships you mentioned require too much practice?

It also might be that the top imperial lists leak too much MOV in comparison. I think there aren't many who would argue against RAC and QuickDraw being the two best imperial pilots in the current meta. RAC is almost always giving up half points, and QD, due to the nature of his ability, is often going off the board in a healthy amount of games as well. Because of this, it's easy to stay away from imperials at huge events because of the fear of missing the cut due to MOV. On a smaller scale though where MOV doesn't play as large of a factor, imperials seem to be doing ok and are in a healthy spot.

A few erratas to mix things up for scum and rebels, and things should be much more stable on the high end as well. The issue I see though is that the list of game mechanics that need to be touched in some way are just too wide now (TLT, regen, bombing, Biggs, the "leaked" stuff), and even if FFG does go forward with some of the leaked errata, it just seems they will always be a half step behind.

The thing is, how do you make low health, high agility ships attractive in the current enviromnent? All it takes is Miranda with a Cluster Mine and that could be Soontir dead before he even activates. Add Sabine into the equation and it's that much more difficult. And that's just one of many tricks available that punish low health ships.

1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

While I agree @FTS Gecko, I also think that Eide's Corran is a strong counterpoint.

He showed that a 2hull ship, admittedly with regen which was huge from what I've heard, can win the whole event.

Now Eide might be a prodigy who also put in a lot of practice. But that still shows that people could try. And more people trying makes it better for everyone else who's also trying.

Do good players default to what is percieved as easier lists when the stakes are higher?

Do these nonviable imperial ships you mentioned require too much practice?

That's absolutely true. Nathan deserves incredible amounts of credit. Especially when you can argue that (regen notwithstanding) Corran is a more difficult ship to fly than Soontir or the Inquisitor.

It's an example of how knowing a ship inside out, putting in the time, effort and practice pays off. Another example is @hothie with the TIE swarm. It's definitely possible to make the ships work for you.

But a lot of players will want to minimise the risks, and whichever way you cut it, low health ships are a real risk.

1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

While I agree @FTS Gecko, I also think that Eide's Corran is a strong counterpoint.

He showed that a 2hull ship, admittedly with regen which was huge from what I've heard, can win the whole event.

Now Eide might be a prodigy who also put in a lot of practice. But that still shows that people could try. And more people trying makes it better for everyone else who's also trying.

Do good players default to what is percieved as easier lists when the stakes are higher?

Do these nonviable imperial ships you mentioned require too much practice?

That's honestly what has me so worried. There are people out there with the time and skill (and most likely passion) to put into something that might not be in meta but has potential, like Corran. But in this case, either A) only one such person out of a decent Imperial turnout trying to do this made it to top 8, or B) there was a low number of Imperial players to begin with. Option B seems to indicate a lack of confidence that players have in Imperial builds, despite a fairly good showing at Store Championships (the experimental level), while option A just proves that Imperial lists are missing something.

When you get up to higher events with more at stake, you want to take something you feel has at least a decent shot at winning. Whether it is option A or B that happened at this Nationals, it still looks like that Imperial lists still are not up to code.

8 minutes ago, Kdubb said:

It also might be that the top imperial lists leak too much MOV in comparison.

That's a good point. I wonder if e.g. halfpoints on all ships would have changed anything. We won't know, but I assume that more players would try imperial and more would succeed with imperial compared to now.

7 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

But a lot of players will want to minimise the risks, and whichever way you cut it, low health ships are a real risk.

Absolutely. I'm still amazed that Nathan pulled it off! I think it's also interesting that he went for advanced sensors. We'd have to ask him directly, but I guess the premovement repositioning was a large help.

8 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Option B seems to indicate a lack of confidence that players have in Imperial builds, despite a fairly good showing at Store Championships (the experimental level), while option A just proves that Imperial lists are missing something.

When you get up to higher events with more at stake, you want to take something you feel has at least a decent shot at winning. Whether it is option A or B that happened at this Nationals, it still looks like that Imperial lists still are not up to code.

It's probably more outstanding this time because imperials had so much success aat storechamps, but I think you're exactly right.

I really hope the tournament will end up on listjuggler, as I would love to take a closer look in the same way I did at worlds.

I'd always be down for some kind of global turret Nerf. Really is difficult to appreciate how much easier it is to fly something that simply does not care about its facing when it comes to shooting

And while I love bombs as they're 100% positioning, turrets trivialize them both in forcing the enemy to chase you and in avoiding bombs because you never have to chase the enemy

Making autothrusters a global rule would be a small step in the right direction

Flying Imperial in Regional or above events right now is like swimming upstream. Sure you can do it, and you can do well, but why work so hard when both Scum and Rebs are like swimming downstream? Flying these amazing builds is like being a wee little god. You can feel it, like driving around a race car versus driving around a family sedan.

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

While I agree @FTS Gecko, I also think that Eide's Corran is a strong counterpoint.

He showed that a 2hull ship, admittedly with regen which was huge from what I've heard, can win the whole event.

Now Eide might be a prodigy who also put in a lot of practice. But that still shows that people could try. And more people trying makes it better for everyone else who's also trying.

Do good players default to what is percieved as easier lists when the stakes are higher?

Do these nonviable imperial ships you mentioned require too much practice?

And guess what imperials aren't allowed to have? It seems like imperials are the only faction told "You're not allowed to have this mechanic".

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

That's a good point. I wonder if e.g. halfpoints on all ships would have changed anything. We won't know, but I assume that more players would try imperial and more would succeed with imperial compared to now.

Half points wouldn't really help much against regen lists.

If you really wanted to 'do it right' you'd keep track of total hits landed during the game. You can then award half points for either getting a ship to half health OR landing enough hits equal to its base hull+shields (whether it's currently at half health or full).

Lots more paperwork, though, but it might help Imperials with their "MoV leaking".

26 minutes ago, Polaritie said:

And guess what imperials aren't allowed to have? It seems like imperials are the only faction told "You're not allowed to have this mechanic".

Oh, how fast people forget....

They also aren't allowed to have turret upgrades, their other most commonly requested mechanic. Oh, wait.

On a more on-topic note, imperial regen will come (though definitely very restricted). Up until the palp nerf it would've been way too risky for them to give the faction with such riddiculous damage mitigation regeneration (though OL kind of has it with the permanent evade).

16 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

I'd always be down for some kind of global turret Nerf. Really is difficult to appreciate how much easier it is to fly something that simply does not care about its facing when it comes to shooting

And while I love bombs as they're 100% positioning, turrets trivialize them both in forcing the enemy to chase you and in avoiding bombs because you never have to chase the enemy

Making autothrusters a global rule would be a small step in the right direction

I also have no real issue with bombs, ASlam is a touch to much in turns of efficiency but it is fixable.

Turrets... weren't the problem they are now BEFORE TLT. Nerfing all turrets will make them uneconomical and they will disappear from the meta entirely, some people would care less but turrets are a different way to fly....

TLT's (imo) should receive a change. "Twin Laser Turret - Range 2-3, 3 Attack Dice. "Your attack dice may only be modified by a Target Lock for it's standard effect. If after the compare results step you have no remaining uncancelled hits, you may make a second attack with this weapon at the same target".

Turrets in general... actually harder than it seems. How many Ion Turret hog lists are we seeing these days?

"Secondary Weapon - Turrets. When defending against a turret secondary weapon, beyond range 2. You may roll 1 additional defence dice if you are not in the firers primary firing arc".

Also. Why should all factions have access to all the different mechanics? Rebels don't have cloaking, Scum cloaking is unreliable.

I'll wait for the ... "because no one runs Phantoms, so who cares"... comments to pour in.

1 hour ago, Elavion said:

Oh, how fast people forget....

They also aren't allowed to have turret upgrades, their other most commonly requested mechanic. Oh, wait.

On a more on-topic note, imperial regen will come (though definitely very restricted). Up until the palp nerf it would've been way too risky for them to give the faction with such riddiculous damage mitigation regeneration (though OL kind of has it with the permanent evade).

The lack of a TLT ship (because let's be honest now) isn't nearly as bad, and can be excused as not having released any ships that actually have turrets (aside from the VT-49, and it's hardly feeling any loss there).

Meanwhile they make a mod that does shield regen and then say "No imperials" on it explicitly.

6 minutes ago, Polaritie said:

The lack of a TLT ship (because let's be honest now) isn't nearly as bad, and can be excused as not having released any ships that actually have turrets (aside from the VT-49, and it's hardly feeling any loss there).

Meanwhile they make a mod that does shield regen and then say "No imperials" on it explicitly.

Because writing "Not omega leader only" would've been bad design. This way it leaves them the design space for adding 1-shield ships that would be bonkers with regen in the future.

Gunboat Incoming! Lets hope its what the Empire needs.

I also really really would like to see a Empire Support ship (TIE reaper maybe?) that can either regen hull of ships with low hull (3 or less) or mitigate the damage those ships could be taking somehow. With a range limitation of course, and not a auto ability like Biggs, would need to roll dice for the mitigation to trigger depending on results as Im thinking canceling damage all together not just absorbing it.. or a combo of depending on the dice roll the damage is mitigated or if its another roll you get damaged but not the ship your taking the damage for... has to be balanced etc.

1 hour ago, Phoenix5454 said:

Gunboat Incoming! Lets hope its what the Empire needs.

I also really really would like to see a Empire Support ship (TIE reaper maybe?) that can either regen hull of ships with low hull (3 or less) or mitigate the damage those ships could be taking somehow. With a range limitation of course, and not a auto ability like Biggs, would need to roll dice for the mitigation to trigger depending on results as Im thinking canceling damage all together not just absorbing it.. or a combo of depending on the dice roll the damage is mitigated or if its another roll you get damaged but not the ship your taking the damage for... has to be balanced etc.

A support ship in general that had some type of "regen other friendly hull/shield" action would be really interesting.

Maybe have it take a stress token for each agility value over 1 the target has when performing it? But then again, maybe not even worry about giving a drawback to healing low health, high agility ships since auto damage is suddenly everywhere and making agility pointless.

1 hour ago, Elavion said:

Because writing "Not omega leader only" would've been bad design. This way it leaves them the design space for adding 1-shield ships that would be bonkers with regen in the future.

That's a terrible argument. Should scum never get a new 1-shield ship that's hard to kill 1v1 then now that they can give it this mod? Rebels? If we take your argument as truth then they've just completely closed that off.

5 minutes ago, Polaritie said:

Should scum never get a new 1-shield ship that's hard to kill 1v1 then now that they can give it this mod? Rebels?

If Scum or Rebels had an omega leader equivalent, I would definitely say it was a bad idea to allow them to take pulsed ray shield.

But then again, you compare it to things at the top of the game, and it really doesn't seem like it would be ludicrous in comparison to the dominant forces in the meta, especially with the game being more about auto damage bombs which OLs ability deals nothing with.

Now this is where we get into long term design choices.

12 minutes ago, Polaritie said:

That's a terrible argument. Should scum never get a new 1-shield ship that's hard to kill 1v1 then now that they can give it this mod? Rebels? If we take your argument as truth then they've just completely closed that off.

Yes, that is the case. strictly speaking, every game element you release limits your design space; it essentially comes down to weighing whether that new shiny thingy you want to add to your game is worth the opportunity cost long term. Overall, I think the decision here was correct. I would also not be very surprised if Kylo Interceptor comes out with one shield and would be very strong with the added 1-forward and regen options, kinda like the arc caster restrictions suddenly makes even more sense now that we know the gunboat title.

8 minutes ago, Kdubb said:

If Scum or Rebels had an omega leader equivalent, I would definitely say it was a bad idea to allow them to take pulsed ray shield.

But then again, you compare it to things at the top of the game, and it really doesn't seem like it would be ludicrous in comparison to the dominant forces in the meta, especially with the game being more about auto damage bombs which OLs ability deals nothing with.

This is another part of long-term design: accounting for possible meta shifts. OL might not be the top dawg right now, but he certainly has it in him to get back to the top at some point.

2 hours ago, Elavion said:

Because writing "Not omega leader only" would've been bad design. This way it leaves them the design space for adding 1-shield ships that would be bonkers with regen in the future.

In the aggressors the pulse ray shield would have be even better

I've pointed this out months ago, but Imperials don't have access to as many upgrade cards as other factions because there are both a) more upgrade slots ipn other factions (droids, illicit) and b) more unique upgrade cards that are faction specific in other factions. This means that the Imperials have a lot fewer combinations to play around with.

Patticularly of note in the gencon meta is that three things stand out: turrets (specifically on named pilots)bombs, and Biggs. They don't have a Biggs type mechanic so that can't mess with target priority. They have a couple of interesting bombing pilots but the mechanics (and the platforms) on those don't even come close to a Adv Slam, Sabine or Nym. The Imperials have one platform for PWT and one platform for a turret upgrade. RAC is solid but people have already mentioned issues with the Deci and the unique pilots for the aggressor just aren't well designed for competitive play.

So the Imperials are mostly reliant on efficient pilots (QuickDraw, Vessery, Omega, etc..) for more balanced lists.

17 hours ago, SabineKey said:

At this stage, even the factor of low Imperial turn out is telling. Store Championship season had quite a few Imperial victories. That should have inspired more people to take them. But if still only a few decided to bring Imperial lists, that is concerning.

Imperial lists got almost nothing sexy or exciting in the last wave... believe it or not people like playing the new stuff and new lists... there is nothing new or exciting about a TLT carrier.

Yeah, Imperials are due for a bomb crew I think, just to balance that out.

There isn't much you can do about the unique upgrade slots - it's way too late to start adding that meaningfully. But Imperials do currently have significantly more tech slots, and you can go all in on giving them ally-support crew (or things that help them). The themes already there with Fleet and Systems Officers. Do more things like that and slap "Imp only" on them. Make more crew that are useful on the Phantom generics.

13 minutes ago, AlexW said:

I've pointed this out months ago, but Imperials don't have access to as many upgrade cards as other factions because there are both a) more upgrade slots ipn other factions (droids, illicit) and b) more unique upgrade cards that are faction specific in other factions. This means that the Imperials have a lot fewer combinations to play around with.

Patticularly of note in the gencon meta is that three things stand out: turrets (specifically on named pilots)bombs, and Biggs. They don't have a Biggs type mechanic so that can't mess with target priority. They have a couple of interesting bombing pilots but the mechanics (and the platforms) on those don't even come close to a Adv Slam, Sabine or Nym. The Imperials have one platform for PWT and one platform for a turret upgrade. RAC is solid but people have already mentioned issues with the Deci and the unique pilots for the aggressor just aren't well designed for competitive play.

So the Imperials are mostly reliant on efficient pilots (QuickDraw, Vessery, Omega, etc..) for more balanced lists.

this.

48 minutes ago, Icelom said:

Imperial lists got almost nothing sexy or exciting in the last wave... believe it or not people like playing the new stuff and new lists... there is nothing new or exciting about a TLT carrier.

Especially when the unique pilots are pretty terrible.

47 minutes ago, Polaritie said:

There isn't much you can do about the unique upgrade slots - it's way too late to start adding that meaningfully. But Imperials do currently have significantly more tech slots, and you can go all in on giving them ally-support crew (or things that help them). The themes already there with Fleet and Systems Officers. Do more things like that and slap "Imp only" on them. Make more crew that are useful on the Phantom generics.

I'd argue that if the game has any sort of lifespan it's not too late.

That said, it doesn't have to be slots that are unique to them. It could be a unique mechanic that applies to certain imperial list compositions (squadron cards), or as I pointed out, just more faction specific cards.

As it stands there's nothing they get that makes up for those two deficits at all.

This meta is bad for arc-dodging aces and for generic swarms. It's not shocking that they aren't being taken and/or winning as much. Their main two archetypes are basically DOA. IN THIS META. Not necessarily true in the future.