On 10/19/2017 at 3:43 PM, Rexler Brath said:

There seems to be a very big assumption that there will be 20 - 40 miniatures per side in each game. I am just wondering where people are getting this information. All that we have seen so far in the demos from GenCon are squads with less than 20 units per side.

Also, for those saying that x-wing has much less units per squad than legion, I present to you x-wing Epic format. 300 pt epic games are an FFG standard format but I have read some players go up to 800 pts. Anyways, with the 300 pt limit, a player can build lists with about 20 ships. I just quickly created a list with 20 ships that I think might be interesting to try out - http://xwing-builder.co.uk/view/766801/epic-legion-proof. Its possible to run 20+ ships but I don't think that would be enjoyable (at least for me). Moving all those dials and moving the ships would be a pain IMHO. But I have seen plenty of photos on the reddits about players flying massive fleets so there is at least a sub set of the player base that enjoys these massive games.

I am just making an assumption here, but I suspect FFG will have several play modes with Legion. I suspect a skirmish mode (like 100 pt x-wing). And I expect an Epic mode like 300pt x-wing. I could be totally wrong and there might just be 1 mode too. I personally don't like the 300pt x-wing format (too many ships, too much setup time). That is not to say I don't like Epic ships (b/c I do). So when I play 'epic', I play 150pt games. That is enough points to get an epic ship on the board and to have supporting ships (or just 1 boss Raider) but not too many ships.

I won't be purchasing Legion (like many other gamers in my x-wing group) as I am not interested in painting and assembling the models at this time. From my understanding, the models are not on the base and all require assembly. I also do not want to commission an artist to do the painting for me. I just want to let FFG know why I am not purchasing their product. I would purchase the product if they released pre-painted minis like x-wing. And yes, I know this has been said many times by many other people. I am not trying offer anything new but just to let FFG know there is a market.

I also do not appreciate players saying if a game is for me or not. You are not capable of making this decision for me. I am. I think the way the game was presented at GenCon is 'for me'. The only aspect of the game that isn't, is the painting and assembling. I am unwilling to go out of my way to commission artists to do the painting as well.

I would purchase their product if FFG sold pre-painted (high quality) models. I am willing to pay more money for FFG pre-painted as I do for x-wing (I own almost everything there). I am also not selfish enough to demand that FFG ONLY sells pre-paints. I think FFG could and should do both. Sell unpainted at a lower price (for the painters/hobbyist). And sell pre-painted for everyone else. That seems like a win/win scenario for FFG and the community. I really do not understand people who have a problem with FFG selling both unpainted/unassembled and pre-painted/assembled products.

How does pre-paints take away your joy of the game? Or rather, how does the joy of players purchasing pre-paints take away your joy of the hobby?

For the same reason it isn't a joy to you. You don't enjoy building an army from scratch others do. Therefore if that was taken away it would take some I'd the joy away with it. You can't directly compete with gw and pp if you aren't directly in their space.

Another point with pre-painted is that the poses will inevitably be limited. Given that Legion seems to be shaping up somewhere close to the larger sides of games, it would become an issue - particularly for the Rebels - very quickly that so many swathes of the army look exactly the same as one another in stature.

With vehicles/starships this isn't really an issue, because everybody knows that stock machines are going to look almost identical to one another, but in our minds we know that people - at least soldiers who aren't identical like Stormtroopers - will look in some way different. That one Duros for example would be very glaring if you see four of him, in the same paint job, in the same pose, across your whole force.

On 2017-10-21 at 4:57 AM, ScottieATF said:

You don't want to make the comparison because beyond it being illogical to look at at non standard format as an example of typical cost to play the game,

EPIC is an official FFG standard game mode. Why do you deny this simple to understand fact?

2 hours ago, Arbitrator said:

Another point with pre-painted is that the poses will inevitably be limited.

You are already getting an unpainted and un-assembled set. Customise it to your hearts desire. So what if people choose to buy pre-paints with standard troops. How does that effect you personally? Do you refuse to play opponents that you don't like the look of?

19 hours ago, Tirion said:

For the same reason it isn't a joy to you. You don't enjoy building an army from scratch others do. Therefore if that was taken away it would take some I'd the joy away with it. You can't directly compete with gw and pp if you aren't directly in their space.

I really do not understand this. Legion is already unpainted and unassembled. Those that want to paint and assemble can freely do so. If FFG released a pre-painted and assembled set, how does that effect YOU? If it hurts you, how do you deal with opponents who you simply do not like the paint job of? Do you refuse to play them?

4 hours ago, Rexler Brath said:

EPIC is an official FFG standard game mode. Why do you deny this simple to understand fact?

That's like saying Commander is the standard format for MtG. It isn't. It's a supported alternative format.

Acting like epic play is indicative of the average number of pieces on the table for X-wing is disingenuous. That's been the subject matter the entire time.

And it's very telling that you don't address the rest of that post.

2 minutes ago, ScottieATF said:

And it's very telling that you don't address the rest of that post.

I don't address the rest of the post because your post is based on an argument that EPIC is not an Official Standard Game mode. There is no point addressing the rest of the points.

3 minutes ago, ScottieATF said:

Acting like epic play is indicative of the average number of pieces on the table for X-wing is disingenuous. That's been the subject matter the entire time.

Please substantiate this claim.

On 2017-10-21 at 2:07 AM, jrmypdgr said:

Here's the 800pt proof

Note he says, the sandard 800 point 6 x 3 battlefield 800 points. But he goes on to say that a 'full size game' you will have closer to 10 units.

So you have 800 points to spend on 10 units. Congrats, 10 units per side is less than 300 pt EPIC x-wing. Its close to an 8 ship imp swarm on 100pt x-wing.

1 minute ago, Rexler Brath said:

Note he says, the sandard 800 point 6 x 3 battlefield 800 points. But he goes on to say that a 'full size game' you will have closer to 10 units.

So you have 800 points to spend on 10 units. Congrats, 10 units per side is less than 300 pt EPIC x-wing.

10 units per side equals how many models? Since we've been talking about model count this whole time.

Just now, ScottieATF said:

Which claim? That we've been talking about the average number of models on the table in each game, or that it's dishonest to suggest the less commonly played epic format is indicative of a normal X-wing game?

You're hopeless man. You walked into this conversation completely ignorant of the subject being discussed, completely unaware of information already provided about this game, and you've kept doubling down on it.

100vs100 is the standard X-wing format, that's why the call epic Epic "of unusual size or extent". The standard for Legion is 800vs800, we know this. Comparison 800pt Legion to 300pt X-wing is nonsensical.

I am blocking you as you clearly are unable to converse without using ad'hominen attacks. Learn to communicate properly.

Lets just stop feeding the troll and let the thread die. Lol. These boards are peaceful. Lets try to maintain that. May the Force be with you. Always.

Now that we’ve seen the prices for the wave one expansions, I feel like maybe they should be preprinted. I’m not seeing a discount for them not being painted. The price is a bit scary. This game is going to cost just as much as armada but I will need to spend hours painting it as well as buying paints etc. just a little shocked at the sticker price on these. I have to think on this for a few weeks. I do not want my girlfriend to murder me over a game lol.

FYI, Legion is a miniatures game. You don't really play the game all that much in a miniatures game. You spend most of the time on the "hobby" painting and constructing terrain. This is more like model trains than X-Wing. If you are looking for an X-Wing like game, play that. If you want a game that uses people, then you'll be much happier with AI. It has fewer figures to paint/pay to be painted so that part is easier. The "terrain" is the tile maps included in the game. It is a far more accessible game. If you have to complain about painting or prices, a miniatures game is not for you.

Yes Legion is the new pretty and looks exciting. Just know what it actually is and what you are getting into.

FYI x wing and armada are miniature games as well. I was under the impression that this game would be cheaper than those games because it’s not painted. It is pretty pricey for unpainted. Not sure why there would even be a debate over this.

1 hour ago, ninclouse2000 said:

FYI x wing and armada are miniature games as well. I was under the impression that this game would be cheaper than those games because it’s not painted. It is pretty pricey for unpainted. Not sure why there would even be a debate over this.

If you look at comparable miniature games, like warhammer 40k and warmachine, these prices are actually not bad, and lower than I was expecting. That is the market FFG is aiming for. I played 40k for a while, and it is neat, especially the amount of customization. One of everything will cost $300, and in 40k I spent that on half an army.

3 hours ago, ninclouse2000 said:

FYI x wing and armada are miniature games as well. I was under the impression that this game would be cheaper than those games because it’s not painted. It is pretty pricey for unpainted. Not sure why there would even be a debate over this.

Why were you under that impression?

The thing people have been saying is the the models are cheaper because they are unpainted. But you also need 8-10 times the models compared to you typical standard Armada or X-wing games. Even if the models are half as expensive, the game will be more expensive because you need way more then double the models on average.

X-wing is $15 for a single small based model. The Stormtrooper and Rebel units boxes are $25 for 7 similarly sized, higher detail models, with individual poses. That's less then 4 dollars per model, a lot of which is because they aren't painted.

3 hours ago, ninclouse2000 said:

I was under the impression that this game would be cheaper than those games because it’s not painted.

While I empathize with your disappointment, there has never been a single fact on the ground from FFG that would have given anyone that impression.

On 10/19/2017 at 9:41 PM, Rexler Brath said:

Do you have any references to show that a standard game of Legion is 800 points?

Do you have any references to show that a full size match is 800? Do you have any references to show the different game modes? x-wing has several official game modes including 100pt and Epic.

Yes, as a matter of fact we do.

"Though two AT-STs would take up nearly half of your army points—before you even assign them any upgrades—the fear these walkers instill in your opponent’s army is nearly palpable."

This is from the AT-ST article posted 10.25.17.

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2017/10/25/all-terrain-scout-transport/

I think that as it has not been otherwise stated or the previous sentence didn't give some qualifier like "in epic/grand/awesome/firepower of that magnitude play we can reasonably infer that they are talking about the standard, normal, when someone asks you to play Legion you would automatically assume they're talking about this game mode/game mode you would expect to see played at Worlds.

According to the card shown in the article the AT-ST is 195 points.

2xAT-ST is 390 points.

390 is "nearly half" of 800.

Now, you're more than welcome to believe that this is about some epic mode of Legion, but you're probably wrong and will be more disappointed than you are now when you realize that you were clinging to an incorrect assumption.

That's your problem, not ours. Live your life how you want to but don't expect others to operate from your flawed set of assumptions.

4 hours ago, ninclouse2000 said:

FYI x wing and armada are miniature games as well. I was under the impression that this game would be cheaper than those games because it’s not painted. It is pretty pricey for unpainted. Not sure why there would even be a debate over this.

Okay, you don't understand what a miniature "game" is. I hate to use the word game because they are actually hobbies that can be used as a game. Yes X-Wing and Armada use miniatures but they are not traditional miniature "hobbies"; they are games with prepainted miniatures and cards. Legion is really not for the X-Wing/Armada players. This game is probably not for you, which is fine, because honestly, it isn't for most people at all. If the idea of paying $50 for an ATST and then having to paint it sounds stupid, then don't get into this game. You will not like it.

On 10/23/2017 at 0:42 PM, Rexler Brath said:

I really do not understand this. Legion is already unpainted and unassembled. Those that want to paint and assemble can freely do so. If FFG released a pre-painted and assembled set, how does that effect YOU? If it hurts you, how do you deal with opponents who you simply do not like the paint job of? Do you refuse to play them?

I was miss understanding your pie in the sky dream of them releasing a second set. I thought you were wanting to replace the actual market with your own.

7 hours ago, ninclouse2000 said:

Now that we’ve seen the prices for the wave one expansions, I feel like maybe they should be preprinted. I’m not seeing a discount for them not being painted. The price is a bit scary. This game is going to cost just as much as armada but I will need to spend hours painting it as well as buying paints etc. just a little shocked at the sticker price on these. I have to think on this for a few weeks. I do not want my girlfriend to murder me over a game lol.

discount? That isn't how that works these are highly detailed models with multiple sculpts. without counting I would imagine they are already close to if not past the amount of sculpts of armada. compare these prices to 40k (ya know this games actual competitor) and you will see they are discounted.

6 hours ago, ninclouse2000 said:

FYI x wing and armada are miniature games as well. I was under the impression that this game would be cheaper than those games because it’s not painted. It is pretty pricey for unpainted. Not sure why there would even be a debate over this.

cause its not pretty pricey for its space in the industry. Its actually pretty cheap.

Woooow
0.5$ form me:

1. This whole topic is pretty much hillarious. Legion WAS ADVERTISED as miniature hobby. Direct competition to 40k. In this stuff you paint your own minis period. Next you guys will be upset by the fact you need to assemble your own battlefield and cant just stick to a simple matt. No you can't cause its not that type of a game.
2. "I like the game but hate painting" - cool then play. And if you can't stand grey minis and no battlefield? Minis you can always comission. "But ill have to pay for painting!" Yeap. Thats how capitalism works - you either do it yourself or you pay for someones elses services. You could say "i have to pay for the sculpts of the minis!" Yeap. Thats how capitalism works. You can always sculpt them yourself. Not your area of expertise? Well than pay for the service.
3. "I can't paint!" Seriously? My 8yo daughter can paint. Many voices here "hey its not that hard" "no no maybe for you cause you already can!" and maybe, just maybe listed to those guys cause they know what they are talking about? Painting whole starter requires below 8 paints and literally no skills. **** if are really lazy you can just use wash paint directly onto grey plastic and it will look cool, after adding details like guns and skin. REALLY. Its that simple. Simplest color scheme i can think of for rebel is paint skin(pretty large areas, no skill needed just steady hand)>paint metalics(same)>use brown wash on entire mini(not even a steady hand is needed at this point). Done. 3 paints. 10 minutes. 1h you have a squad.
4. "I dont like to paint!" - then look point 2.
5. "I will not paint cause they need to be prepainted!" - no they don't. Not this kind of product. And no FFG will not release prepaints simultaneously cause its pretty much creating a whole new production line for them.

Either you try to paint Legion, you commision it, or just don't cry cause other products were prepainted.

6 hours ago, Zrob314 said:

While I empathize with your disappointment, there has never been a single fact on the ground from FFG that would have given anyone that impression.

I got that impression from this thread. I saw twenty different “experts” state that this game would be cheaper because it wasn’t preprinted. FFG never made that statement, it was made by the experts that were putting down anyone who wanted painted minis as a reason why it’s a good thing they’re not painted. I’m fine with them being unpainted, I was just hoping they would be much, much cheaper.

1 hour ago, Vitalis said:

Either you try to paint Legion, you commission it, or just don't cry cause other products were prepainted.

My only problem wanting a Christmas release so i can paint it (and get a load of games in) over the quiet period. I am new to it so not the fastest painter.