14 minutes ago, VictoryLeo said:

FFG charges $15 retail for ONE small based mini in X-wing that's doesn't have the fine details that a trooper (especially Rebel) would have. The Legion box comes with 30+ minis. Even if you're talking half the price of a single mini to need more detailing, you're looking over $200+ for the core set. Now you just scared a lot more people away than you would've by going unpainted. Legion will appeal to two types of players: casual Star Wars fans who never played a tactical mini game who buy based on brand and the wargamer who wants to play large mini battles in the Star Wars universe. Either way you need the cost down to appeal to those people. If you have the money but not the time, then commission someone to paint them for you. Problem solved.

Oh, heh. That's my post exactly! That's what I get for only reading the first page of posts before posting!

4 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

Oh, heh. That's my post exactly! That's what I get for only reading the first page of posts before posting!

Lol, it's ok. I think there's a lot of us who are on the same page. There's cost vs quality. The more detail, the higher the cost. FFG is going for 1000 point tournament play (or roughly two starter boxes worth of minis). If they're prepainted either you're talking an insane price or horrible quality. Some people need to be reminded about WotC's miniatures game and how "well" those minis looked pre-painted.

1 hour ago, kmanweiss said:

Eh...

According to the suit being filed against GW, it only costs a couple pennies per figure. Yes, painting costs money, there is no doubt about that. But what I'm saying is that GW and FFG along with others are already marking up their plastic pieces by 1000's of %. We could very well be expected to pay $90 for $5 of plastic and another $5 of paper/cardboard. I think FFG could eat the painting cost and it might not really make a difference.

Now would FFG hike the price by 50% even if it only cost them $5 to paint them...probably...

There's literally nothing in that suit that can be believed. It's filed by some game shop owner in Florida that has no more insight into the industry than any of us, beyond which distributor he buys his games wholesale from.

If you don't like painting, don't have the time to paint, or can't paint for some reason then you are not FFG's target audience for this game and Legion is not for you. FFG is trying to tap into the tabletop miniatures hobbyist market (40k, AoS, Bolt Action, Flames of War, Warmachine/Hordes, etc) with Legion. Its a completely different genre then the boardgame or pre-painted miniatures market. Most tabletop miniatures hobbyists have spent hundreds of dollars on paints and brushes for their hobby and they enjoy painting or at least tolerate the painting aspect. Tabletop miniature wargaming is a "lifestyle" genre that's more of a hobby and takes a considerable amount of your recreational money and time to participate in. Your free gaming time is spent in equal amounts of assembling figures and armies, painting figures, making terrain, and then actually playing the game. Most serious tabletop miniature wargamers/hobbyists do not have a closet full of boardgames because they will not get used or they have no interest in that genre.

5 minutes ago, DesignXception said:

If you don't like painting, don't have the time to paint, or can't paint for some reason then you are not FFG's target audience for this game and Legion is not for you. FFG is trying to tap into the tabletop miniatures hobbyist market (40k, AoS, Bolt Action, Flames of War, Warmachine/Hordes, etc) with Legion. Its a completely different genre then the boardgame or pre-painted miniatures market. Most tabletop miniatures hobbyists have spent hundreds of dollars on paints and brushes for their hobby and they enjoy painting or at least tolerate the painting aspect. Tabletop miniature wargaming is a "lifestyle" genre that's more of a hobby and takes a considerable amount of your recreational money and time to participate in. Your free gaming time is spent in equal amounts of assembling figures and armies, painting figures, making terrain, and then actually playing the game. Most serious tabletop miniature wargamers/hobbyists do not have a closet full of boardgames because they will not got used or they have no interest in that genre.

This is me to a tee!

2 hours ago, DesignXception said:

If you don't like painting, don't have the time to paint, or can't paint for some reason then you are not FFG's target audience for this game and Legion is not for you. FFG is trying to tap into the tabletop miniatures hobbyist market (40k, AoS, Bolt Action, Flames of War, Warmachine/Hordes, etc) with Legion. Its a completely different genre then the boardgame or pre-painted miniatures market. Most tabletop miniatures hobbyists have spent hundreds of dollars on paints and brushes for their hobby and they enjoy painting or at least tolerate the painting aspect. Tabletop miniature wargaming is a "lifestyle" genre that's more of a hobby and takes a considerable amount of your recreational money and time to participate in. Your free gaming time is spent in equal amounts of assembling figures and armies, painting figures, making terrain, and then actually playing the game. Most serious tabletop miniature wargamers/hobbyists do not have a closet full of boardgames because they will not get used or they have no interest in that genre.

This is very true. While I love Armada; in between games, my ships just sit on a shelf. In a real wargame there is so much else to do between terrain, conversions, and painting. This is really important for me lately, because I am more likely to get 30min or so a few nights per week than I am to have 3 hours straight in one day to play a game.

6 hours ago, DesignXception said:

If you don't like painting, don't have the time to paint, or can't paint for some reason then you are not FFG's target audience for this game and Legion is not for you. FFG is trying to tap into the tabletop miniatures hobbyist market (40k, AoS, Bolt Action, Flames of War, Warmachine/Hordes, etc) with Legion. Its a completely different genre then the boardgame or pre-painted miniatures market. Most tabletop miniatures hobbyists have spent hundreds of dollars on paints and brushes for their hobby and they enjoy painting or at least tolerate the painting aspect. Tabletop miniature wargaming is a "lifestyle" genre that's more of a hobby and takes a considerable amount of your recreational money and time to participate in. Your free gaming time is spent in equal amounts of assembling figures and armies, painting figures, making terrain, and then actually playing the game. Most serious tabletop miniature wargamers/hobbyists do not have a closet full of boardgames because they will not get used or they have no interest in that genre.

That's not true for everyone. I truly enjoy miniature tabletop games. I like big battles with hundreds of nicely painted figure. I adore beautiful terrain on the table. I don't mind slugging it out on the battlefield for several hours. I just don't like sitting down for hours and hours and try to make stuff pretty. I'd rather spend that time actually playing the game. That's why I comission a lot of painting. And there must be others like me otherwise there wouldn't be as many studios that do comissions.

just to echo chamber a bit but yes go to your LGS find some teenage kid and offer him store credit to assemble/paint your stuff. Most stores love this as they go to sell more (due to the store credit exchange) and the kid will be eternally grateful. **** you can you even go "if you assemble and paint my Legion core, Ill buy you X Y and Z products for your own games. We did this a lot. People who worked a lot of overtime or didnt enjoy assembly would buy a new 40k or fantasy army, pass it off to some kid (who have tons of time in the summer) in a week have a fully assembled army and he tossed that kid $150 store credit. That sounds like a lot but in the grand scheme of GW armies it was worth it. There are so many great, affordable options for the non hobbyists.

Also, start frequenting your store during WMH/GW nights as you can convert these guys to Legion and also pick up some painting and assembly tips.

On 8/21/2017 at 11:23 AM, Iceeagle85 said:

True, but like all the other unpainted minis miniature wargames that exist out there and are healthy/living this will surely have a big enough playerbase. And I'm really interested if someoen coudl give a price point on decently prepainted detailed human sized infantry miniatures, the Clix games prepaint are crap and as said many times you can't compare the ships from X-Wing and Armada with these minis.
We can take a look at the game Dust Tactics they have unpainted and painted miniatures (some of them even in two different pattern) and the price of the painted ones is a little over double the price of the unpainted ones, so the core set of Legion would cost 179,90$ who would buy that?Yes they are probably hand painted but coudl one do a decent paintjob with machines? I personally have never seen the Dust Premium minis but I have hear about people that are happy with them and I have hear about people that said it's not good enough for that price, so unpainted is the easier and cheaper option.

Yeah never said unpainting would keep it from being healthy/living simply that it will keep people from joining the playerbase, and that seems so weird after they both proved and then built the (casual?) wargame market via x-wing. Those Dust prepaints are all custom hand painted and therefore their cost is vastly inflated (although the price point isn't all that bad, but probably not what wargame empires are built on if they were the only option). As for machine prepaints it really depends what you call decent, but non-painters don't have the same standards as those that do enjoy painting (**** all i hear from hobby painters is how bad the base xwing paint jobs are). For the most part the Wizards prepaints are just fine (to be fair they started that stuff in like 2004, over time quality and methods have gotten much better) and are priced basically the same, It would be very possible to release a game with prepaints that are just fine at a comparable pricepoint, it would just take a bit of work upfront to set that kind of operation up.

Prepainting mini's that need to be assembled isn't all that easy.

Look if people really wanted painted sets just pay someone at your LFGS to paint them, the price will probably be around the same as if they prepainted it in the first place.

Now, anyone find it funny that FFG has been sort of slowly drawing people into war gaming with their Star Wars products? They start with X-wing which is prepainted then release Aramda which just requires you to paint these small squadrons so it isn't a really big deal, then we have Imperial Assault and you want them painted but hey you gotta do what you gotta do and now they have Legion where you not only need to paint them but put them together.

Eh, I'm bored, so I'll weight in.

I used to run a Games Workshop retail store. One of the things we did was run a painting class for kids. It would generally take about 2 hours to get a kid from complete noob who had never touched a brush before to painting a model to a decent table standard. Table standard generally means that the model looks great from ~3' away, which is how far away you generally are when playing a game, but might have some issues close up. The Sorastro painting tutorial for Luke is definitely much better than table standard, but still very achievable if you've practiced the basics.

Games Workshop actually does a really good job of teaching people how to paint. I can't recommend this product enough to people who are wanting to learn. It's 50 USD and comes with a DVD. It does a really solid job of teaching you the basics.

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/How-to-Paint-Citadel-Miniatures-ENG

Treat a core set like a project and break it into manageable chunks. For me, the core set represents seven evenings of painting. Each evening will probably be 3-4 hours or so. All told, I'll be looking at around 20-30 hours total to paint the models to a pretty decent standard.

1. Stormtroopers Squad #1
2. Stormtroopers Squad #2
3. Speeder Bikes
4. Vader + Luke
5. Rebel Troopers Squad #1
6. Rebel Troopers Squad #2
7. AT-RT

Ive never painted a thing and just proved how much supplies are and wow are they expensive! I can't believe you really save any money buying non painted minis when the painting supplies cost this much.

17 minutes ago, ninclouse2000 said:

Ive never painted a thing and just proved how much supplies are and wow are they expensive!

No they really aren't... I'm not sure what you're looking at, but the supplies to paint are not really that expensive, unless you want to spend a ton on stuff that is at best a convenience. You don't really need 6 different shades of red or blue or black. You never need something called Ork Flesh to paint an Ork... It just saves you time mixing your own paints.

A good brush will cost you $8 or less, and you really need maybe 3 or 4 of them. Then you'll really only need about 6-8 different paint bottles/pots. Those cost $3-5 per. So the cost to paint everything in the core set, will run you about $60-75. I'd recommend getting either Army Painter or Reaper paints, over Citadel, because they're as good if not better, the droppers are easier to use, and they're cheaper. With Citadel you are honestly paying for the name.

In fact the Army Painter store has the TAP Hobby Set for $70, that includes everything you need to start assembling and painting Legion, including the tools, and a cutting board.

However with those supplies you'll be able to paint maybe 500 or more miniatures. Because any one miniature really doesn't need all that much paint on it... Especially if you thin your paints properly, which gives a much better look.

So sure if the only thing you were ever going to paint is a single core set, then in theory a prepainted set would be cheaper... Although I don't think it would be much less than the price of supplies. But if you look at that the price of supplies and extend it over two core sets, and X number of waves of Legion the price per model drops drastically. To the point that anyone who already has the supplies required will be paying a lot per model for a poor quality model that they have to strip and repaint... So for us we're not only not gaining anything, we're actually losing out in time and the cost of the stripping agent.

8 minutes ago, ninclouse2000 said:

Ive never painted a thing and just proved how much supplies are and wow are they expensive! I can't believe you really save any money buying non painted minis when the painting supplies cost this much.

As with most small do-it-yourself projects, the entry fee seems higher than just buying the finished product. A single bottle of Citadel paints seems expensive, but it will last you forever almost. I just spent about $15 on some brushes the other day, which seems pricey, but if I take care of them I won't need to replace them for awhile.

As another example, I've made mead (honey wine). If you buy a bottle of mead, it could be $20+. Buying a bulk supply of honey and associated equipment may be $50-60, but it makes me gallons of mead, rather than a single bottle's worth. The end result is only a few dollars a bottle.

Of course, time is also a factor.

And that online store is a poor measure. The prices are pretty high compared to buying it a hobby store.

1 hour ago, Blackbird888 said:

As with most small do-it-yourself projects, the entry fee seems higher than just buying the finished product. A single bottle of Citadel paints seems expensive, but it will last you forever almost. I just spent about $15 on some brushes the other day, which seems pricey, but if I take care of them I won't need to replace them for awhile.

As another example, I've made mead (honey wine). If you buy a bottle of mead, it could be $20+. Buying a bulk supply of honey and associated equipment may be $50-60, but it makes me gallons of mead, rather than a single bottle's worth. The end result is only a few dollars a bottle.

Of course, time is also a factor.

And that online store is a poor measure. The prices are pretty high compared to buying it a hobby store.

Thanks for the constructive feedback. I appreciate it.

1 hour ago, Blackbird888 said:

As with most small do-it-yourself projects, the entry fee seems higher than just buying the finished product. A single bottle of Citadel paints seems expensive, but it will last you forever almost. I just spent about $15 on some brushes the other day, which seems pricey, but if I take care of them I won't need to replace them for awhile.

As another example, I've made mead (honey wine). If you buy a bottle of mead, it could be $20+. Buying a bulk supply of honey and associated equipment may be $50-60, but it makes me gallons of mead, rather than a single bottle's worth. The end result is only a few dollars a bottle.

Of course, time is also a factor.

And that online store is a poor measure. The prices are pretty high compared to buying it a hobby store.

Thanks for the feedback. I didn't factor in that the paints can last that long.

33 minutes ago, ninclouse2000 said:

Thanks for the feedback. I didn't factor in that the paints can last that long.

Yes they do, as was already said here thin them as 2-3 thin coats are better than one thick. And if you store them right and be careful they can last quite some time.

50 minutes ago, ninclouse2000 said:

I didn't factor in that the paints can last that long.

That's why I recommend Army Paint or Reaper paints, the Citadel pots seem to be designed to dry out before you use all the paint, so you have to buy new paint sooner. Army Paint or Reaper come in dropper bottles that don't try out very quickly, and are easier to get onto a pallet.

58 minutes ago, VanorDM said:

That's why I recommend Army Paint or Reaper paints, the Citadel pots seem to be designed to dry out before you use all the paint, so you have to buy new paint sooner. Army Paint or Reaper come in dropper bottles that don't try out very quickly, and are easier to get onto a pallet.

Vallejo is also a really solid choice. Especially since they have a Game Color line that replicates many of the GW colors more or less exactly, allowing you to use any number of online tutorials that feature GW colors.

Vallejo is my go to choice, with individual paints from elsewhere. GW actually do some great ones, but I wouldn't use the whole range as my standard choice.

Vallejo also do great airbrush paints fwiw.

I have mostly Army Painter paints (because they are cheap and mix very well, considering to get some Vallejo for yellow, though, that one just isn't good, or I need to shake it harder), but some washes and brush on varnish from GW. Painting can be daunting, but most of the starting difficulties come from skimping on supplies. With some good brushes that hold their point, well covering paints, and some light research on beginner techniques (GWs Youtube channel is quite good if you abstract from their painting system a bit) you will amaze yourself even with your first mini.

To me the Army Painter starter set is the perfect entry point to painting. It comes with all the colours you need for mixing and a decent enough brush. Add in a primer of your choice (The exact colour can be a bit of a religion. I use black like the majority of painters, but some swear by white and pragmatic souls will even use their base colour in spray form.) and you are good to go for roughly 40-50$. When you learned a bit on the basic units you can then start to tackle the more flashy ones with the supplies you found yourself wishing for.

7 hours ago, ninclouse2000 said:

Ive never painted a thing and just proved how much supplies are and wow are they expensive! I can't believe you really save any money buying non painted minis when the painting supplies cost this much.

If you are in the US, I strongly encourage you to utilize Michael's and Hobby Lobby's "weekly" 40-50% coupons. Hobby Lobby carries basic Vallejo colors. Solid paint product. Droppers not pots. Both carry basic tools ... snips; matts; tapes; glues; magnifying googles if needed; spray primers (Tamiya) ... and an array of mid-tier brushes.

You visit them a few times over a week and you knock decent chunks of cost off the start-up fees. Trust they aren't checking to see if you already used your "weekly" coupon from day to day. Also, they'll have some aggressive sales over Labor Day.

Should you have a local hobby store ... thinks models & trains ... sometimes ... they have used/old paint they sell SUPER CHEAP. You can pick a few of those up and, then, leverage products made to revitalize an older paint. As was stated, you don't need 100 colors to start. You need a basic set of colors. Spend money are solid brushes. Make HUGE difference.

Brushes for stuff like painting terrain or dry brushing ... pick up a $5 multi-brush pack. Will have several brushes with different tip shapes.

Paint for stuff like terrain ... your super cheap bottles from Hobby Lobby or Walmart.

As far as paint colors for Rebels, you could easily pick up a pre-packaged set made for most WWII armies. Vallejo has these. Would have all the colors needed. Maybe you need to get a white to help soften colors. Maybe a color or two for flesh tones.

12 hours ago, KrisWall said:

Treat a core set like a project and break it into manageable chunks. For me, the core set represents seven evenings of painting. Each evening will probably be 3-4 hours or so. All told, I'll be looking at around 20-30 hours total to paint the models to a pretty decent standard.

1. Stormtroopers Squad #1
2. Stormtroopers Squad #2
3. Speeder Bikes
4. Vader + Luke
5. Rebel Troopers Squad #1
6. Rebel Troopers Squad #2
7. AT-RT

So this means if I want a basic paint job on my Legion models, I'll be able to start playing the game just over half-a-year after I buy it...

Because that 3-4 hours I get once per month to play something like Legion would be spent painting instead. Looks like I'll be playing it unpainted, since I would rather enjoy the game with boring gray models than not play at all.

I can't wait to paint them!

Might need to take some simple commissions as well!:)