Seems to be 2 identical threads running, so in answer to "it'll stop people playing" or "it'll be too niche", I'll post my reply from the other one;

In my 30 years of gaming, I've met far more people that won't play because of soft plastic/pre painted models than I have those that won't play because they come unpainted.

I mean....just look at GW, Privateer, Wyrd, Corvus Belli, and every historical manufacturer among others. Hardly failures in the market....in total for wargaming unpainted models ARE the market, or at least the massively overwhelming majority of it.

No, unpainted models definitely don't stop a game from succeeding or hurt its player base.

Simple put. Even although I like painting, I dint have the time for it. When I get the time again some day, I will put it into other armies.

I loved Armada, because I really just had to put them out of the box onto the battlefield.

So for me its: Prepainted and I will buy in happy and big, unpainted and I will have to stand aside.


And for everybody advocating: Painting is fun, Painting is easy.... Yes it is. For some of us. Its far easier to redo the prepainted figures if you love painting, than to paint the unpainted ones for the people who dont like it or dont have the time.

But pre-paints also cost more, especially for multi part models (which these seem to be), which is why many don't want them.

Unfortuately this is a classic "no way to please everyone" scenario, unless they do both pre-paints and a cheaper unpainted line at the same time....which is massively unlikely.

12 hours ago, Extropia said:

Seems to be 2 identical threads running, so in answer to "it'll stop people playing" or "it'll be too niche", I'll post my reply from the other one;

In my 30 years of gaming, I've met far more people that won't play because of soft plastic/pre painted models than I have those that won't play because they come unpainted.

I mean....just look at GW, Privateer, Wyrd, Corvus Belli, and every historical manufacturer among others. Hardly failures in the market....in total for wargaming unpainted models ARE the market, or at least the massively overwhelming majority of it.

No, unpainted models definitely don't stop a game from succeeding or hurt its player base.

You are missing a couple of points. First anecdotes are hardly an argument, it seems more that you are just seeing the player base in your own "we love to paint" social bubble.

Secondly, yes, there are a lot of companies succesful with unpainted miniatures, but that is no indicator, that there is still room on the market for another one. To counter you anecdotal evidence, I wont go into another Panting prject beside Flams of War, Tanks, 40k, 30k and BfG Armada.

The people with the biggest purse are the people with less time for the hobby. And in the end you wont sell it to Modelbuilders and painters but to gamers. If you just want the modelbuiling aspect, most will turn to actuall... modelbuilding not tabletop.

And lastly you are missing the fact, that FFG climed to the top and nearly matched 30 years of GW in a couple of years with Prepainted X-Wing and Armada; both selling enourmous. Even Attack Wing (worse X-Wing but Star Trek) nearly outsold Warmahordes.

19 minutes ago, DScipio said:

The people with the biggest purse are the people with less time for the hobby. And in the end you wont sell it to Modelbuilders and painters but to gamers. If you just want the modelbuiling aspect, most will turn to actuall... modelbuilding not tabletop.

I think model builders and painters will buy just as much if not more; 'non-hobbyist gamers' appear to be fickle (based on comments here) and will probably chop and change games more than someone who's invested blood, sweat and paint into an army. How many ppl here have posted outright that they won't buy it cos they're not prepainted; hardly a supporting rallying cry.

31 minutes ago, DScipio said:

And lastly you are missing the fact, that FFG climed to the top and nearly matched 30 years of GW in a couple of years with Prepainted X-Wing and Armada; both selling enourmous. Even Attack Wing (worse X-Wing but Star Trek) nearly outsold Warmahordes.

I think the whole universal appeal of those license, the better gameplay and lower cost is the main driving factor in that argument.

Maybe this just isn't the game/hobby experience for you if you're 1) not willing to play unpainted or 2) paint a model.

1 hour ago, DScipio said:

You are missing a couple of points. First anecdotes are hardly an argument, it seems more that you are just seeing the player base in your own "we love to paint" social bubble.

Secondly, yes, there are a lot of companies succesful with unpainted miniatures, but that is no indicator, that there is still room on the market for another one. To counter you anecdotal evidence, I wont go into another Panting prject beside Flams of War, Tanks, 40k, 30k and BfG Armada.

The people with the biggest purse are the people with less time for the hobby. And in the end you wont sell it to Modelbuilders and painters but to gamers. If you just want the modelbuiling aspect, most will turn to actuall... modelbuilding not tabletop.

And lastly you are missing the fact, that FFG climed to the top and nearly matched 30 years of GW in a couple of years with Prepainted X-Wing and Armada; both selling enourmous. Even Attack Wing (worse X-Wing but Star Trek) nearly outsold Warmahordes.

My the last post on this subject, since ultimately both sides are entrenched and it'll be impossible to please both camps. It's also a moot argument since we know what's happening already.

Its no more anecdotal than your own argument and experience. Ultimately the unpainted market vastly eclipses the pre-paint one taken as a whole. Even leaving historical wargaming aside.... stack up 40k, 30k, Sigmar, Warmahordes, Malifaux, Infinity, Gates of Antares, all the smaller stuff (Guildball etc) and compare it to the pre-paints, which are mostly just x-wing and Armada.

The unpainted market is simply far bigger, and that's not anecdotal.

They climbed to the top on the back of Star Wars. It's impossible to claim that being pre-painted caused that, just as it's impossible do me to claim it didn't. Imperial Assault ALSO sold massively, and that was unpainted and had pretty mediocre models. Frankly, if you stamped a Star Wars logo on anything it's going to sell to some extent.

As I sai, I'm bowing out now since this is a pointless argument. I'll end by saying that regardless of this issue I sincerely hope you end up enjoying the game

18 hours ago, Extropia said:

Seems to be 2 identical threads running, so in answer to "it'll stop people playing" or "it'll be too niche", I'll post my reply from the other one;

In my 30 years of gaming, I've met far more people that won't play because of soft plastic/pre painted models than I have those that won't play because they come unpainted.

I mean....just look at GW, Privateer, Wyrd, Corvus Belli, and every historical manufacturer among others. Hardly failures in the market....in total for wargaming unpainted models ARE the market, or at least the massively overwhelming majority of it.

No, unpainted models definitely don't stop a game from succeeding or hurt its player base.

LOL

You've met people that won't play due to a paint job on the mini's because they want to paint them....but they won't point over or strip and paint a unit? So they will take the effort to paint a detailed unit, but not paint over (same effort), or strip and paint (slightly more effort). That makes no sense.

Unpainted don't stop a game from succeeding, but it does hurt the potential player base. X-wing and Armada would have been far less successful. The vast majority of players can't/won't/don't paint. Some would have been turned off by the lack of paint and the monotone models. The paint, the color, the imagery attracted their attention and pulled them into the game.

Heroclix and the old star wars mini figures have BAD paint jobs. But they also had big followings. The paint job didn't turn people away, it attracted tons of players that the games never would have with unpainted minis. Yes, they both eventually died out, but it wasn't due to paint jobs, and I can name you a ton of unpainted mini games that have failed also. But even though those paint jobs were bad, they were better than what likely 90% of the potential player base is capable of.

Try to image this. You walk into a FLGS. You see a couple tables of people playing games. If it's X-wing, it instantly draws your attention with unique, painted figures. You identify it and are interested. If it's armada, you recognize the ships, the color patterns, and you are interested. If its a bunch of grey and tan plastic figures that honestly look no different than any other unpainted figures from any other game or company from more than 2 foot away....eh. But even a shoddy black and white paintjob on those stormtroopers make them pop from quite a distance and suddenly people are interested.

I understand why they didn't, and that it's the norm for this genre of game. I honestly don't care if they pre-paint or not. But to act like it's a positive to have them unpainted, or that painted would drive people away instead of draw people in is silly. Will legion be successful and make money? Most likely. It's an FFG product with a SW theme. They have to really screw up to lose on this deal. But I find it hard to believe that it wouldn't draw more attention if it was painted.

Sure, there are a lot of people here that are ok with it being unpainted, or are even leaning to the happy side since they don't have to repaint or strip the units. But this is a microcosm of FFG customers. The vast majority of X-wing/Armada/etc players don't even come here. The ones that do are the hardcore fans that go the extra mile in these games.

19 hours ago, Extropia said:

No, unpainted models definitely don't stop a game from succeeding or hurt its player base.

Those are two VERY different points. Yes there is no way unpainted models would keep a game from succeeding, plenty have come in the past and there will be plenty in the future that all do well. Legion will succeed or fail based on how well designed the mechanics are, its differentiating features, and, in part, the SW license. However, it absolutely can hurt the playerbase. There is a significant portion of players that are not interested in painting, this puts up a huge barrier to entry for those players and if they never enter the market then they are unable to join the playerbase, thereby lower the overall playerbase.

And yes prepainting comes with its own criticisms but those barriers are very lopsided. As there are far more barriers to a newcomer than someone experienced in the hobby. Sure there could be some concerns about if those new players would even join if those barriers were lowered but Xwing has been one helluva proof of concept. And its because of this that I find the decision to not prepaint so baffling. FFG did a masterful job making a wargame that was able to retain its intricacies but make it casual/open enough that anyone could pick up and play. By all accounts this looks very similar in the design goal, which is intriguing. Then to stop at the minis is confusing, its a half measure. Either dive right into the "full" wargame experience or make a game that everyone can enjoy; half and half seems like such an odd choice.

1 hour ago, PastrySandwich said:

There is a significant portion of players that are not interested in painting, this puts up a huge barrier to entry for those players and if they never enter the market then they are unable to join the playerbase, thereby lower the overall playerbase.

True, but like all the other unpainted minis miniature wargames that exist out there and are healthy/living this will surely have a big enough playerbase. And I'm really interested if someoen coudl give a price point on decently prepainted detailed human sized infantry miniatures, the Clix games prepaint are crap and as said many times you can't compare the ships from X-Wing and Armada with these minis.
We can take a look at the game Dust Tactics they have unpainted and painted miniatures (some of them even in two different pattern) and the price of the painted ones is a little over double the price of the unpainted ones, so the core set of Legion would cost 179,90$ who would buy that?Yes they are probably hand painted but coudl one do a decent paintjob with machines? I personally have never seen the Dust Premium minis but I have hear about people that are happy with them and I have hear about people that said it's not good enough for that price, so unpainted is the easier and cheaper option.

I don't like painting minis - I never really did. But I like to play with pretty miniatures at the same time. I painted a fair share of minis in my past gaming history but I am done with it. Nowadays time is much more valuable for me than money. So I actually pay people to paint my minis. Pre-painted would be an insta-buy argument for me. There has been fairly well done pre-paints in the past like AT-43 and Battlefield Modern Combat. Also the Star Wars franchise is so very well set with their aesthetics that the studio paintjobs probably will be very popular. Blue Stormtroopers don't roll.

I wish FFG would do a Deluxe line - like with Dust. I'd be sure to pick up some packs that way.

Late to the party and I'm sure already mentioned but definitely check out @Sorastro 's videos. I started never having touched a mini and a horrible artist, his videos took me from noob to confident in a decent amount of time. His video quality is unrivaled, his techniques are adaptive and innovative and most importantly his professionalism is among the top I've encountered in any profession in my life. He actually cares, this is a job to him but you can just feel his passion radiating from the videos.

He already released the Luke video, but if you wanted to cut your teeth pre release you can check out his IA videos. Just be warned, the storm trooper fatigue is real .

And if you like his videos and use them guys don't forget he has a patreon page. The more support he gets the better off we all are!

People have to understand, this isn't a board game this is a miniature war game, designed for people that like that kind of thing. It's a bigger hobby than just playing.

As a hobbyist, i prefer they come unpainted and made with better plastics/resin.

Prepainted minis generally come in at a higher price point, and to even make it to that point, they generally cut costs on things like the molds and the material used for the miniatures.

I would much rather my money go towards better material, and higher quality molds/miniatures.

On 8/21/2017 at 9:26 AM, kmanweiss said:

You've met people that won't play due to a paint job on the mini's because they want to paint them....but they won't point over or strip and paint a unit?

Yes, there are many people like that because the pre-painted stuff is poorer quality materials with worse detail. Every pre-painted mini I've ever seen wasn't worth the effort of stripping and painting because the model itself is bad.

Then there's the fact that they also cost more, so anyone who enjoys the hobby side of it is not going to pay even more for something that requires even more work and still looks worse. Even if the models were actually good and you could get the same quality after stripping it, you still have people paying more for the models they would otherwise, so they could go though the extra work of stripping the models and repainting them.

That would do way more damage to the bottom line then having unpainted models will.

Legion is an attempt for FFG to dip their toe in the last pool. The Sci-Fi wargaming pool. They now have a share of the market with Legion. Their goal is not to convert the X-wing, Armada, Imperial Assault players to legion. Their goal is to try and convert the rabid 40k player base. To grab the tens of thousands of warmahorde players that exist. X-Wing may be popular and sell very well but I am not sure its player base is bigger than WarmaHordes or 40k. Legion is FFGs answer to the tried and true Tabletop Skirmish game. They are able to lean on the Star Wars IP to give most war gamers something they've wanted for decades. There are cons that have Legion from homebrew'd rules and Revell models and they reenact hoth all weekend and people eat it up. The demand is simply there, FFG is going to cash in on it. This will also drop when the euphoria of 8th ed 40k starts to go away. With Privateer Press's new release schedule that means there generally won't be much competition from them right now. If i was GW i would be planning to drop a bomb release in this same window to try to lessen the blow.

That being said, Legions issues will 100% be its models. Not the scale, but the quality. While people here don't want to assembly, I love assembly, I enjoy painting. Its an excuse to throw on netflix or sit in discord, drink beers, and just do my thing. I find it super relaxing. These models won't be complex. They want some minor assembly as you can get better poses and higher level of detail but its not GW worthy where a kit may take you a solid 6 hours (30pack) to assemble. The fact that these could be the same PVC based plastic that PP uses is a cause for concern. I really hope these are more resin based, or a good quality plastic (like Revell or GW). People will pay $30 a model for GW because they know it is the pinnacle of Wargaming modeling. That is something no other company has tried to rival because the cost to go to that material is too high.

To the people who don't paint and want to learn. Go to your FLGS miniatures night. Find the guys with painted armies no matter how good or bad and talk to them. We used to have a local, that for $50 would give you 4x 30minute lessons. This is where i learned how to dry brush, use washes and inks, thin my paints, and clear coat. all staples of miniature painting. I started painted 20 years ago, before youtube. I have friends that have started painted 4 years ago and with the advent of youtube they have mastered advanced techniques I wouldn't dare to try. The information is all there, if painting is something you honestly want to try, DO IT, it can be super satisfying to finish a model and really be wow'd by it. Talk to the local gamers that paint because they will be able to tell you when the next painting party is, and they will also most likely be your future opponents in Legion.

Practice painting. GW does a lot of really great bundling for starter sets. That means you can typically find swathes of models on the dirt cheap. You can typically pick up 5-10 space marines for maybe $10. Buy them, assemble them, clean them, prime them, and practice on them. Before I start any new miniature painting project I grab a sac marine and work on my test scheme.

I understand people want pre-painted, pre-assembled miniatures. That is not FFGs target audience with this game. Ive digressed a bit and just wanted to make some points/encourage the future painters and hobbyists.

Side note, the first model I ever painted was a Revell Millenium Falcon that had a partial interior plan modeled and the hull came apart. That was the first step down a long, expensive, road.

prepainted would also hyke the price by around 50% i bet.

No thanks.

1 hour ago, Vineheart01 said:

prepainted would also hyke the price by around 50% i bet.

No thanks.

Eh...

According to the suit being filed against GW, it only costs a couple pennies per figure. Yes, painting costs money, there is no doubt about that. But what I'm saying is that GW and FFG along with others are already marking up their plastic pieces by 1000's of %. We could very well be expected to pay $90 for $5 of plastic and another $5 of paper/cardboard. I think FFG could eat the painting cost and it might not really make a difference.

Now would FFG hike the price by 50% even if it only cost them $5 to paint them...probably...

Why would they eat the cost to paint the models? Businesses gotta make money somehow and if youre good at something never do it for free

I'm wary of "mark up" arguments because they tend to discount the value of the effort to manage a company and design games.

5 minutes ago, kmanweiss said:

Eh...

According to the suit being filed against GW, it only costs a couple pennies per figure. Yes, painting costs money, there is no doubt about that. But what I'm saying is that GW and FFG along with others are already marking up their plastic pieces by 1000's of %. We could very well be expected to pay $90 for $5 of plastic and another $5 of paper/cardboard. I think FFG could eat the painting cost and it might not really make a difference.

Now would FFG hike the price by 50% even if it only cost them $5 to paint them...probably...

That suit is so full of idiocy, inaccuracies and plain madness that I would hesitate to even mention it in any sort of argument

In this particular case, the cost per model in the suit only factors in material. No staffing, casting, machinery, overheads, packaging, design, marketing, distribution or anything else.

Yes, of course they make a profit. But that guy, and his numbers, are utterly deluded.

3 minutes ago, Extropia said:

That suit is so full of idiocy, inaccuracies and plain madness that I would hesitate to even mention it in any sort of argument

In this particular case, the cost per model in the suit only factors in material. No staffing, casting, machinery, overheads, packaging, design, marketing, distribution or anything else.

Yes, of course they make a profit. But that guy, and his numbers, are utterly deluded.

Oh, I don't think the guy has a case, and I'm sure those numbers are manipulated to a ridiculous point, but the fact remains that FFG and others are probably marking up the costs of these items by larger % than most industries.

Depends on the industry. More than some, a lot less than music, movie or eBooks. Those are where you really can find the 1000%+ markups, bloody thieves.

All relative really.

As said the Dust premium miniatures cost a little over 2 times the price of the unpainted once. And abou the 3 cents per plastic GW mini, that might be the material but one also has to consider all the other cost, packaging, molds, storage, wages and more.

FFG charges $15 retail for ONE small based mini in X-wing that's doesn't have the fine details that a trooper (especially Rebel) would have. The Legion box comes with 30+ minis. Even if you're talking half the price of a single mini to need more detailing, you're looking over $200+ for the core set. Now you just scared a lot more people away than you would've by going unpainted. Legion will appeal to two types of players: casual Star Wars fans who never played a tactical mini game who buy based on brand and the wargamer who wants to play large mini battles in the Star Wars universe. Either way you need the cost down to appeal to those people. If you have the money but not the time, then commission someone to paint them for you. Problem solved.

On 8/19/2017 at 7:43 AM, power500500 said:

Haha! That looks like one of my Imperial Assault figures! (I stink at painting! )

Seriously though, for anybody who doesn't want to try to paint stuff, just go to your LGS and find someone who does! For a marginal fee, there's plenty of people who are happy to paint other people's stuff for them (I know some people who do that kind of thing like a business, for X-Wing minis). I'm sure you can find someone else who will charge a reasonable fee to paint them for you. Trust me, like others have said, this game would be crazy expensive if everything were painted! Look at X-Wing - those preprinted minis are $15 each!