2 hours ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

Where are the blood thirsty samurai who revel in battle and conflict? Where are the samurai who others are not certain they are man or demon?

In the Matsu family.

2 minutes ago, Rawls said:

In the Matsu family.

Or the Bayushi, or the Moto, or maybe there is just one really f*cked up Hida. With the right (new) story we could have any number of fantastic blood-thirsty warlords. And I honestly find them a lot more interesting than some dude who is evil because he contracted the equivalent of a magical disease.

20 minutes ago, Rawls said:

In the Matsu family.

There is a difference between being bloodthirsty and being aggressively honorable, brooking no insult. An individual Matsu might be bloodthirsty but the whole family is not. The Matsu as a whole are the second not the first.

11 minutes ago, Haimei said:

Or the Bayushi, or the Moto, or maybe there is just one really f*cked up Hida. With the right (new) story we could have any number of fantastic blood-thirsty warlords.

Which would point to various individuals within the clans rather than a faction as a whole.

33 minutes ago, Haimei said:

And I honestly find them a lot more interesting than some dude who is evil because he contracted the equivalent of a magical disease.

I feel the same which is why I lament the failure to separate the Spider from the Shadowlands.

He is talking about a specific archetype, not a personality trait. A militaristic, aggressive, and pragmatic warmongers who have more in common with Crab and Scorpion than Lion. Saying "you could have that in any family of any Clan" is obviously possible, but then its also fair to say that Scorpion doesn't need to be its own Clan and that it in fact robs other Clans out of archetype space, by "force-cramming" the sneaky schemers into their own Clan instead of redistributing it over the Empire in form of "individual" ninjas and pragmatic scheming advisors.

48 minutes ago, Haimei said:

Or the Bayushi, or the Moto, or maybe there is just one really f*cked up Hida. With the right (new) story we could have any number of fantastic blood-thirsty warlords. And I honestly find them a lot more interesting than some dude who is evil because he contracted the equivalent of a magical disease.

Fu Leng didn't exactly get a flippen cold by being trapped in Jikogu when he fell "through" earth. While the other Kami decided they all wanted to play demigod and have a tournament (to decide what Togashi already knew) instead of......oh I don't know...finding their lost brother, Fu Leng was getting twisted and corrupted in Rogukani ****. I think that's sufficient grounds to be a little upset with your siblings.

Fu-Leng's story is great one that deserves just as much attention as any of the other Kami and their clans, IMO. The problem was somewhere along the line, many the other characters that converted to the Shadowlands, who also had good stories, were pushed to the forefront and Fu Leng became this backroumd entity and part of the Shadowlands as a whole. Combine that with there not being a true clan champ for the Shadowlands the faction and it's stories were often fractured since the bad guys fought with each other too.

Then Fu Leng gets drug back out for the 2nd Day of Thunder and defeated again, in order to resolve the plot, without us ever getting a real good story about his progress through that time. To me Diagotsu was in some ways what they should have done with Fu Leng. Give us an actual personality we can play with and stories of his plans and progress we can read about. Unfortunately it ends up where Diagotsu and the Spider by extension ends up coming off as over the top and unbelievable.

My hope is that this time around Fu Leng gets treated like the clan champion, both in story and in card form. They could make him a unique conflict attachement that represents the vessel he is occupying and maybe even add in a clause what if you include him in your deck you make not include the clan champion from the clan you are playing with. Then lets see what kind of stories can be written with game results that include that kind of play.

25 minutes ago, WHW said:

He is talking about a specific archetype, not a personality trait. A militaristic, aggressive, and pragmatic warmongers who have more in common with Crab and Scorpion than Lion.

I find that ironic, given how many people are complaining about the Lion being militaristic and aggressive warmongers. The one thing they aren't depicted as being is pragmatic . . . but if people already complain about the bloodthirsty jerkwads who keep attacking other clans just because they can, then a) we don't need another clan full of 'em and b) they won't be any more popular than the Lion currently are.

Where's our Oda Nobunaga?

Well, in the old continuity, Kisada was for a while.

22 minutes ago, Kinzen said:

I find that ironic, given how many people are complaining about the Lion being militaristic and aggressive warmongers. The one thing they aren't depicted as being is pragmatic . . . but if people already complain about the bloodthirsty jerkwads who keep attacking other clans just because they can, then a) we don't need another clan full of 'em and b) they won't be any more popular than the Lion currently are.

I think the issue here is that people who want bloodthirsty pragmatists (or, in card game terms, "offensive militaristic dishonorable clan") are turned away by Lions supposed focus on honor, virtue and "paladinness", while people who are interested in Lion as virtuous strategists are turned away by the Arrogant Dumb Bully Lion Factor.

This makes little more sense remembering that the original Clan Wars story was supposed to be about the Clans peaking in their downfall and being in the middle of utterly failing their ancestral duties, and in Lions case...basically look at Matsu Tsuko. She was the human manifestation of Lions decadence, while Old Toturi was kind of representation of "true Lion". Note that Tsukos seppuku was supposed to be point of Clans purification and "rediscovering Honor", so to speak.

However, for whatever reason, the "decadent fallen warmonger bully Lion" actually became Lion Default Mode. Compare it to Crab, which fallen even harder but then bounced so hard that Clan Wars looks out of character for them.

2 hours ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

That is where they go when they die not which clan they are part of while living.

Shark Clan, from the Lost Minor Clans

12 minutes ago, Kinzen said:

I find that ironic, given how many people are complaining about the Lion being militaristic and aggressive warmongers. The one thing they aren't depicted as being is pragmatic . . . but if people already complain about the bloodthirsty jerkwads who keep attacking other clans just because they can, then a) we don't need another clan full of 'em and b) they won't be any more popular than the Lion currently are.

I think the complaints about the Lion are tied more to player perceptions of the justifications for the current conflicts. There is a feeling less of the Lion going to war over perceived insults and more them setting up situations for them to go to war. The conflict with the Unicorn comes off as the Lion being skeezy, setting up a marriage that the Unicorn could not Sincerely accept. The conflict with the Crane comes off as the Lion trying to kick the Crane while they are down after a major natural disaster. The Lion are presented as the "Honorable" warriors in setting info but come off as entitled bullies in story.

There is a marked difference between the honorable warriors who pretty much march to war anytime they think someone insulted them and the bloodthirsty warriors who want join in or even exacerbate the situation whenever two groups are having a conflict.

Just now, Shiba Gunichi said:

Where's our Oda Nobunaga?

Well, in the old continuity, Kisada was for a while.

Which is an aspect that the Crab player base purged in their Jade Crab movement.

Basically, Lion make a promise about what they are going to be, but then actually don't fulfill it and present something quite different, creating a major dissonance.

Ever played with a GM who wanted to be original, to the point where when you hear "you meet a Paladin", you could start taking bets if he is a bloodthirsty zealot, secret heretic baby eater, or sneaky bastard? To the point, where you had less virtuous "vanilla" Paladins than these "original subversions"?

Lion (and, to certain degree, Phoenix with their "...AND YOU WOULD NEVER GUESS IT, BUT MAHO!") is MADE of that.

31 minutes ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

I think the complaints about the Lion are tied more to player perceptions of the justifications for the current conflicts. There is a feeling less of the Lion going to war over perceived insults and more them setting up situations for them to go to war. The conflict with the Unicorn comes off as the Lion being skeezy, setting up a marriage that the Unicorn could not Sincerely accept. The conflict with the Crane comes off as the Lion trying to kick the Crane while they are down after a major natural disaster. The Lion are presented as the "Honorable" warriors in setting info but come off as entitled bullies in story.

There is a marked difference between the honorable warriors who pretty much march to war anytime they think someone insulted them and the bloodthirsty warriors who want join in or even exacerbate the situation whenever two groups are having a conflict.

Right . . . but your call was for a clan of bloodthirsty warriors, which is how the Lion are currently behaving, which is a thing people have been complaining about. So while there might be room for Clan Toshigoku if the Lion genuinely came across as the honorable warriors, I don't think people would like them very much, because they don't like the echo of it we've got right now -- and it isn't entirely because of the disconnect between what the Lion should be and what they are . It's because people who "want to join in or even exacerbate the situation" whether the conflict involves them or not are, not to put too fine a point on it, a**holes. And say what you will about the Lion or the Crane or the Scorpion or whichever clan you like the least, they have something going for them beyond being a**holes.

37 minutes ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

I think the complaints about the Lion are tied more to player perceptions of the justifications for the current conflicts. There is a feeling less of the Lion going to war over perceived insults and more them setting up situations for them to go to war.

That's precisely the sort of thing Nobunaga did all the time. I like the Lion. Don't @ me!

4 minutes ago, Kinzen said:

Right . . . but your call was for a clan of bloodthirsty warriors, which is how the Lion are currently behaving, which is a thing people have been complaining about.

1

Imagine a world without Scorpion, and where Crane is described to be honorable and virtuous courtiers, but constantly acts like Scorpion. I don't think they would be very liked. Not because people actually would dislike what we currently have as Scorpion, but because the faction promised them one thing, and ended up giving another, looking like major hypocrites in the process.

I might like sweet things, but if I'm ordering a dish that was supposed to be opposite of sweet, I'm going to complain, not be happy that I was surprised.

24 minutes ago, WHW said:

Imagine a world without Scorpion, and where Crane is described to be honorable and virtuous courtiers, but constantly acts like Scorpion. I don't think they would be very liked. Not because people actually would dislike what we currently have as Scorpion, but because the faction promised them one thing, and ended up giving another, looking like major hypocrites in the process.

I might like sweet things, but if I'm ordering a dish that was supposed to be opposite of sweet, I'm going to complain, not be happy that I was surprised.

I understand that there is also a problem when a clan is described as X and behaves as Y. But my point is that the Scorpion, when taken as their own thing (rather than as the failure mode of the Crane), have a clear appeal. They're the ones who do the dirty work the other clans are too ~honorable~ and ~pure~ to touch. All the original Great Clans have a clear appeal, even if it isn't my cup of tea; I can see how they're the heroes in certain kinds of stories. But a clan whose entire core concept is "we just like killing, so much so that people wonder if we're demons, and we throw ourselves into fights that don't involve us just to make 'em bloodier"? The only kinds of players I can see that appealing to are ones I wouldn't want to play with, because that's more or less the definition of a griefer.

You are really unfair here. You are taking a simple sentence that was used _as a supplement to Oda-Nobunaga archetype_ as a complete in-depth description of a hypothetical clan.

It's like saying that "the only kind of players one could see being attracted to a Scorpion are cheaters, backstabbers and Scorpion (btw, accusations like that supposedly used to happen at old L5R events, and not in a joking manner, which boggles my mind) because Scorpion is a clan whose core concept is being sneaky betraying trollholes". Not cool.

It isn't hard to come with a pitch for the "offensive military dishonorable clan". Spin some story about praising straightforward strength, valuing success by any means, sprinkle some spiritual philosophy about becoming ULTIMATE WARRRRRRRRRRRIORRRRRRRR by cultivating personal strength, and generally take a clue from Greyjoys, fantasy vikings and any number of the portrayal of dwarves. Embrace the idea of finding enlightenment in a middle of bloody battlefield. Make them appropietly "metal". Give them big stats, low glory personalities, and self-dishonor mechanics that aid you in military conflicts. Add some conflict cards that "demoralize" opponents on losing military conflicts in which you had a dishonored personality.

I'm pretty sure you could make it competitively appealing with other Clans, who had 20 years of history of development, unlike this one, which basically existed for 1 hour in form of a offhand "you know, I wonder if there is a niche that could be filled, an archetype to be embraced".

I personally don't care much about this idea (I've shared a few "my ways" of what I think Spider could look like already), but one of the things that people actually really liked about Spider human personalities was the straightforward, ruthless, "metal" Conquerors and warriors and the battle-seeking Spider Monks. Both of which actually work perfectly fine without Taint, baby sacrifice and FuLeng worship.

10 hours ago, Kinzen said:

Their purpose was never to destroy the empire. The whole point of Shoju's coup as a narrative element was the dramatic irony that his attempt to save Rokugan instead brought about the very thing he wanted to prevent.

That was actually added later, as far as I know. Shojus coup was retconned multiple times, and his motivations actually at least once included wanting to become Emperor himself due to a magical sword encouraging him to do so.

EDIT

Actually, the "metal" bloodthirsty warriors were originally Crab, weren't they? I remember something about being protectors of the Wall not being in their original identity, so Oda-Kisada is actually a really good comparison

For "ruthless aggressive pragmatists," see, "Moto," "Yoritomo," the original Mirumoto...

4 minutes ago, Kinzen said:

I understand that there is also a problem when a clan is described as X and behaves as Y. But my point is that the Scorpion, when taken as their own thing (rather than as the failure mode of the Crane), have a clear appeal. They're the ones who do the dirty work the other clans are too ~honorable~ and ~pure~ to touch. All the original Great Clans have a clear appeal, even if it isn't my cup of tea; I can see how they're the heroes in certain kinds of stories. But a clan whose entire core concept is "we just like killing, so much so that people wonder if we're demons, and we throw ourselves into fights that don't involve us just to make 'em bloodier"? The only kinds of players I can see that appealing to are ones I wouldn't want to play with, because that's more or less the definition of a griefer.

That is insulting and misconstruing an earlier statement of mine. I never said they join into fights just to make them bloodier. That is just your own bias talking.

As for griefers, I've seen griefers play everything from Paladins to Assassins and try to justify their disruptive actions without considering the feelings of other players. It didn't matter what they were playing. If they wanted to grief they would try to no matter what they were playing. Some of the most disruptive were actually playing "good" guys. At the same time I have known players would can play Evil characters so well in a non-disruptive manner that stories have been improved by their "Evil" presence.

2 hours ago, WHW said:

Actually, the "metal" bloodthirsty warriors were originally Crab, weren't they? I remember something about being protectors of the Wall not being in their original identity, so Oda-Kisada is actually a really good comparison

The Badger are a living example of the original Crab samurai customs, traditions, and culture. While they pick up a weapon with the intent to finish a fight, they're not exactly the most bloodthirsty group of samurai.

5 hours ago, WHW said:

Imagine a world without Scorpion, and where Crane is described to be honorable and virtuous courtiers, but constantly acts like Scorpion. I don't think they would be very liked. Not because people actually would dislike what we currently have as Scorpion, but because the faction promised them one thing, and ended up giving another, looking like major hypocrites in the process.

I'd argue Cranes already act like Scorpions just with better PR.

4 hours ago, WHW said:

It isn't hard to come with a pitch for the "offensive military dishonorable clan". Spin some story about praising straightforward strength, valuing success by any means, sprinkle some spiritual philosophy about becoming ULTIMATE WARRRRRRRRRRRIORRRRRRRR by cultivating personal strength, and generally take a clue from Greyjoys, fantasy vikings and any number of the portrayal of dwarves. Embrace the idea of finding enlightenment in a middle of bloody battlefield. Make them appropietly "metal". Give them big stats, low glory personalities, and self-dishonor mechanics that aid you in military conflicts. Add some conflict cards that "demoralize" opponents on losing military conflicts in which you had a dishonored personality.

I feel like Crab berzerkers already hit most of those points. Just replace the dishonor yourself mechanic with sacrifice yourself and you're pretty much there. Having that be the whole characterization of an entire Clan kind of seems like it would be one dimensional.

9 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Fu Leng didn't exactly get a flippen cold by being trapped in Jikogu when he fell "through" earth. While the other Kami decided they all wanted to play demigod and have a tournament (to decide what Togashi already knew) instead of......oh I don't know...finding their lost brother, Fu Leng was getting twisted and corrupted in Rogukani ****. I think that's sufficient grounds to be a little upset with your siblings.

Fu-Leng's story is great one that deserves just as much attention as any of the other Kami and their clans, IMO. The problem was somewhere along the line, many the other characters that converted to the Shadowlands, who also had good stories, were pushed to the forefront and Fu Leng became this backroumd entity and part of the Shadowlands as a whole. Combine that with there not being a true clan champ for the Shadowlands the faction and it's stories were often fractured since the bad guys fought with each other too.

Then Fu Leng gets drug back out for the 2nd Day of Thunder and defeated again, in order to resolve the plot, without us ever getting a real good story about his progress through that time. To me Diagotsu was in some ways what they should have done with Fu Leng. Give us an actual personality we can play with and stories of his plans and progress we can read about. Unfortunately it ends up where Diagotsu and the Spider by extension ends up coming off as over the top and unbelievable.

My hope is that this time around Fu Leng gets treated like the clan champion, both in story and in card form. They could make him a unique conflict attachement that represents the vessel he is occupying and maybe even add in a clause what if you include him in your deck you make not include the clan champion from the clan you are playing with. Then lets see what kind of stories can be written with game results that include that kind of play.

idk - b/c here is the thing - if there is a Fu Leng Redemption story then Fu Leng can no longer be evil. If you use a redemption story you have to turn in your villain card - otherwise it doesn't matter that you were abandoned in the festering pit for 1000 years b/c you're evil NOW, and won't stop being evil. One of the Spider Clans's main problem is they bombed the redemption story with all of their cards still losing honor, and they were still about being evil. They can't have their cake and eat it to. If you want an evil faction you have to simply have an evil faction and you can't justify a desire to destroy the world no matter how many years you spent tormented by demons.

8 hours ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

I think the complaints about the Lion are tied more to player perceptions of the justifications for the current conflicts. There is a feeling less of the Lion going to war over perceived insults and more them setting up situations for them to go to war. The conflict with the Unicorn comes off as the Lion being skeezy, setting up a marriage that the Unicorn could not Sincerely accept. The conflict with the Crane comes off as the Lion trying to kick the Crane while they are down after a major natural disaster. The Lion are presented as the "Honorable" warriors in setting info but come off as entitled bullies in story.

There is a marked difference between the honorable warriors who pretty much march to war anytime they think someone insulted them and the bloodthirsty warriors who want join in or even exacerbate the situation whenever two groups are having a conflict.

Which is an aspect that the Crab player base purged in their Jade Crab movement.

No clan can be just 1 thing. This is an essential failing of the Spider clan. The Lion are honorable and warmongers. The Phoenix are holy and blood speakers. The Crane are honorable and "honorable." The Scorpion are cheaters and loyal. The Crab are unflinching in their protection of the Empire against the shadowlands, but turn around and lead the charge against it themselves.

The Spider are evil and evil. I'm not against some representation of the Spider coming back - but they need to either be 1) the temporary face of the Shadowlands, to come and go with the story, or they need to 2) actually be redeemed. Take away their taint and dishonor and see if there is anything still interesting about them. ALL of the clans are bloodthirsty warriors who want to join in or even exacerbate the situation because this is a feudal society and victory goes to the conqueror. What makes this game interesting is that this does NOT mean only physical war, but also political war. The systems of honor don't disallow for dishonorable, blood thirsty aggression. The Scorpion and Crab are both the embodiment of this. They also have other things that round out their personality to be interesting beyond a surface layer of "I'm evil."

If a faction is just "I'm evil" then they have no place in an ongoing story. At a point they will eclipse all other conflict and the story will be them against the world - and either the world will be destroyed, forever ending everything else about the game - or they will lose. This is why evil always loses. You can't have the same story once they've won...

Perhaps the best way to give the Spider a slice of the pie without dumping on Rokugan would be to create a sort of "multiverse branch" of the storyline, giving us an arc that is a complete tangent from the rest of the story like kyd. Let all of these cards fuel the ability to play corrupted version of the great clans, and create unaligned characters that mirror the Imperial Family in the shoes of what the Spider Clan was. Have this story for an arc, and then get back to real5r. Maybe even bounce back a few times as time goes... but this is the best evil can hope for - a dream of victory, possibly granted for a time... but always fading away. It would also mean you could play "shadowlands" as any faction, with neutral and clan specific card support to help shape the options for decks. The big trick here is how do you balance this with the honor mechanic?

4 hours ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

That is insulting and misconstruing an earlier statement of mine. I never said they join into fights just to make them bloodier. That is just your own bias talking.

Then I genuinely don't know what you mean when you proposed "bloodthirsty warriors" who want to "exacerbate" other people's conflicts. To exacerbate means to make worse, and you described them as people who seem almost to be demons in their love of war. I'm being sincere when I say that if you have a different vision in mind for them than what those words imply, I'd like to know it.

5 hours ago, WHW said:

You are really unfair here. You are taking a simple sentence that was used _as a supplement to Oda-Nobunaga archetype_ as a complete in-depth description of a hypothetical clan.

It's like saying that "the only kind of players one could see being attracted to a Scorpion are cheaters, backstabbers and Scorpion (btw, accusations like that supposedly used to happen at old L5R events, and not in a joking manner, which boggles my mind) because Scorpion is a clan whose core concept is being sneaky betraying trollholes". Not cool.

It isn't hard to come with a pitch for the "offensive military dishonorable clan". Spin some story about praising straightforward strength, valuing success by any means, sprinkle some spiritual philosophy about becoming ULTIMATE WARRRRRRRRRRRIORRRRRRRR by cultivating personal strength, and generally take a clue from Greyjoys, fantasy vikings and any number of the portrayal of dwarves. Embrace the idea of finding enlightenment in a middle of bloody battlefield. Make them appropietly "metal". Give them big stats, low glory personalities, and self-dishonor mechanics that aid you in military conflicts. Add some conflict cards that "demoralize" opponents on losing military conflicts in which you had a dishonored personality.

I reacted to what got said in several posts, and (as I said above) the descriptions as given pretty much just imply bloodshed and death for the sake of bloodshed and death: "bloodthirsty," "demons," "exacerbat[ing] other people's conflicts," etc. You've taken that in a different direction here, talking about strength more than bloodthirst, adding in spiritual philosophy and enlightenment and so on -- sort of a cross between the Dragon and the Crab -- which could be interesting; but I was responding to the pitch that had been made, not the pitch one could make.

I'd prefer to see corruption as an option for the factions we have, the idea of taking a great clan and corrupting it by splashing shadowlands rather than another great clan (also I'd like to see this mechanic for Naga and Yoritomos Alliance).

I'd really prefer not to see new factions as separate entities, to me this world feels complete when you take the great clans we have and put them through story arcs and changes, falls from grace and paths of redemption, adding a baddie faction that a bit decides it doesn't want (or does want) to be baddies seems aimless. Shadowlands at its finest represents a wonderfully insidious form of corruption of what is, devils deals to save the day or survive and bids for power at any cost. Same with Kolat and other twists.

The Lion hopefully are being set up for a split, rather than a fully fledged Toturis army faction, we will end up with two distinct lion play styles and their story will hang on that evolution.

The Scorpion can fall from grace after their coup goes wrong and we see the Kagemusha storyline play out for their bloody vengeance. Maybe what we are seeing with the factions isn't who they are, but rather the beginnings of who they become and how they get there.

The ONLY way I could imagine a "Spider really being the Imperials" would be as a conspiracy among the imperial factions, not a shadowlands inversion.

Considering there were rumors at Gencon of one of the future deluxe expansions being an Imperial cycle, with many more Imperial cards and themes, something like it could easily happen. In Old5r the greatest allies of the Otomo were quickly becoming the Susumu, with the original heir apparent for the Otomo family marrying the Susumu Daimyo, who had an entire deck based on using the clout provided by their small family's close connection to the Imperial Families. So a tie to the Spider, or the idea, could show up.

-Scorpion launch the Coup, they kill the Hantei and decapitate the heads of the imperial families, causing absolute chaos

-Scorpion fail to kill the sons of the emperor, are defeated by the other great clans

-The elder brother takes the throne, but is traumatized and weakened by the whole experience, this is covered up by the Otomo

-His younger brother (traditionally Daigotsu), face damaged, wears the iconic mask and takes control of the Otomo family

- Trusted unconditionally by the Hantei, the younger brother becomes his closest advisor and practically rules by proxy

-Don't write the new Otomo as plotting treason, but instead have him dedicated to protecting his remaining dear family, no matter the cost.

- The Imperial families are convened to discuss the ultimate failure of the Scorpion, who was trusted to prevent this exact turn of events.

-New Daigotsu (whatever he is called) asserts that the Imperials need to gain far stronger control over the empire, never again allowing anyone to get this close.

-Wants to challenge the clans to lure out the threats "like insects in our web", and thus the Spider Conspiracy is born.

-Launches a political campaign to seize power back from the clans, for the first time in hundreds of years the Imperials are actively making moves in society,

- At this time the Deluxe Expansion comes out with the Imperial Families becoming an unaligned but Imperial faction in the game

- They are themed around having and burning the Imperial Favor for specific effects and feature the Seppun, Miya, and Otomo families

-Mechanically they care far more about having the imperial favor then any faction currently does, Way of the Spider/Otomo being "Gain the imperial favor or take it from the opponent" as its abilities, that kind of thing.

-They have Kyuden Otomo as a new stronghold, allowing only Imperial characters to be recruited

-By now they would also have Meshiodo magic, because the choice was made to share it with them, showing players that giving them things have consequences

-Story wise they reachout to clans, offering enticing rewards in exchange for falling into line and making examples of those that refuse

- Clans that agree gain new characters representing their new ties to the Imperials, with the Imperial Keyword so the Imperials may use them.

-Become a non shadowland's antagonist faction based on sheer highborn arrogance and individual superiority.

-OR, Shahai becomes corrupt, marries the young Daigotsu and slowly corrupts him and the Hantei, paving the way for Reborn Fu-Leng

-OR, they just become the unaligned faction in the game, but act as another player in the big game of rokugan.

But really, the Imperial Families would make an excellent addition as a new faction, Spider themed or no. When I did Winter Court 4, having the Imperials as one of the competing factions was a really cool thing to see, all of their hidden agenda's and plans really help bring the struggle of the great clans more to life.

Even if they don't do what I just listed, Imperials would be a really solid addition to the game, allowing the Imperial Favor to possible be used in very interesting ways, as the Favor right now is kind of meh impact wise. +1 to a conflict is nice, but not as impactful as it could be. Imagine if Imperials let you discard the favor for special effects on their dudes, to represent the power of their political influence, would be very interesting to see. The design space IS there, that's for sure. I hope the rumor turns out to be true.