2 hours ago, TheEasternKing said:

To expand on what Ardaedhel said about timing windows will allow you to explain to the goober CN.

Lets say you have a Raider with APT & OE.

it has a conc fire order, attacking with its front arc, so you gather dice, 2 blue 2 black and add one black with CF dial.

You roll, blank, blank, hit/crit, hit, crit,
In modify step you reroll the 2 blanks, and get a hit/crit, and another blank.
The Defender spends Def tokens (Brace / Redirect)
The attacker resolves a critical effect (this is where a face up card is dealt by APT or ACM deals 1 damage to both adjacent hull zones)
The attacker totals damage, 6 in this case.
The Brace reduces the damage to 3.
The defender suffers 3 points of damage, on a one for one basis, first on shields, then on hull. (this is where TFA is resolved by the defender)

There is very specific wording used in this game for timing windows, TFA says "when you suffer damage from an attack."

Attack is the first keyword, attack is a specific event with a specific chain of steps for its resolution.
Suffer Damage is the next keyword, which is a specific part in that chain of steps resolved during an Attack.

Basically you cannot use TFA because you do not have the legal opportunity to do so, until after the damage card was dealt face up.

6 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Yes.

What's even better: it's supported by the RRG!

Step 5 of the Attack procedure:

"The attacker can resolve one of its critical effects. Then the attacker determines the total damage amount. Then the defending squadron or hull zone suffers that total damage, one point at a time."

1. Resolve crit
2. Suffer damage

My claim, is that this supposedly clear cut " suffer damage " wording, isn't as clear as y'all think it is.

7 minutes ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

My claim, is that this supposedly clear cut " suffer damage " wording, isn't as clear as y'all think it is.

Its pretty clear cut in the rule book and the faqs. Crit effects are before damage. The regular crit effect simply says: First damage card your suffer is dealt face up. So if you suffer 0 damage cards, it does nothing, but the effect was still used. Imagine you had a crit effect that says remove 2 shield on a blue crit. So before you suffer damage, you remove 2 shields, it doesent mean you suffered 2 damage on shields and that you can transfer it.

3 minutes ago, mintek917 said:

Its pretty clear cut in the rule book and the faqs. Crit effects are before damage. The regular crit effect simply says: First damage card your suffer is dealt face up. So if you suffer 0 damage, it does nothing, but the effect was still used.

I just disagree, and am done. Three pages of arguing is enough. I know you guys are right, but I actually do know the rules and do not think it is as clear cut as you think it is. I understand your arguments now, and I am still not 100% convinced.

16 minutes ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

My claim, is that this supposedly clear cut " suffer damage " wording, isn't as clear as y'all think it is.

Well, it's not 100% clear, but I'm more concerned with likely, functional interpretations. The advanced stuff I leave to others.

When a ship suffers damage, it suffers that damage one point at a time. For each point, reduce the shields in the defending hull zone by one. If the defending hull zone has no shields to lose, deal a facedown damage card to the ship instead.

APT works through a completely different process. ACM, on the other side, explicitly uses this way to work. See that APT doesn't care about shields what suffering damage does. Also, Ion Cannon Batteries doesn't care about damage, just shields. Those effects (APT and ICB) cannot be considered as suffering damage, they don't work as suffering damage rather than a completely different effect. ACM is an effect that makes the enemy to suffer damage though so, in this case, anything concerning to suffering damage works.

So, IMHO TFA works against:

- nothing special

- ACM

- default crit through "redirecting" the damage that would deal a damage card.

- xx9 as above

It doesn't work against:

- ACM

- Dodonna's pride

- ICB

- Sarah W.

Basically. Its a game effect, not a deal damage effect, even though it does lower your remaining hill value and it gives the card a face upndamage card, it isn't dealing damage the way that TFA is looking for.

TFA is looking for a rock being thrown into a pond to send to another pond. APT is putting a rock in the pond, but not throwing it in.

Not to beat a dead horse, but I came across this in a game yesterday and thought I'd share.

Consider Navigation Hazards, which makes a clear distinction between being "dealt damage cards" and "suffering damage."

****. I said I was out. So I'm out.

You clowns didn't prove anything to me anyways.