Can Task Force Antilles be used when an opponent wrecks you with APTs?

4 minutes ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

Can Task Force Antilles be used when an opponent wrecks you with APTs?

Aint that the question.

Technically, you can pass over a Default Critical Hit, for sure...

And the Fire Control Team ruling seems to Imply that.

But its a tough sell to the crowd without actual rules advice.

Surely not. It's not suffering damage, it's a damage card being dealt through a separate mechanism.

Dras, I really think you're generalizing too much from that FCT ruling. I don't want to get into that ruling here again, but I don't think that's relevant to this question.

3 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

Surely not. It's not suffering damage, it's a damage card being dealt through a separate mechanism.

Dras, I really think you're generalizing too much from that FCT ruling. I don't want to get into that ruling here again, but I don't think that's relevant to this question.

Maybe.

The first damage card dealt by an Attack is APT. That is why Fire Control and APT don't stack, after all.

Before you suffer damage is still bloody nebulous ... Does that mean suffer any damage, enter the damage step (which includes everything, including the critical effect declaration), or actually suffering points of damage.

Because:

5. Resolve Damage: The attacker can resolve one of its critical effects. Then the attacker determines the total damage amount. Then the defending squadron or hull zone suffers that total damage, one point at a time.

If you have to use it before you suffer damage, as in, resolve anything rom the "resolve damage' step.......

Without advice from FFG, you have to accept the possibilty at the very least.

Of course, answer the TFA question in general , and you'll answer this one.

For sure, the Default Critical can be kicked over by wording alone, as the other ship is suffering that damage, rather than Biggsing a new point of damage that was reduced.

I wouldn't say it is a different mechanism @Ardaedhel . Crits can be damage and are part of the damage step right?

Also, for the record @Ardaedhel ...

.. . Totally want to be on your side. Totally don't want APTs to be bounceable. Totally don't want to the FCT / APT interaction as it is. Totally want Critical Damage and Damage Cards to be Totally separate. Totally want TFA to be applying to individual points of damage...

But until FFG clarifies it, we have to accept the stupid possibility, and it pisses me off more than people who say "Armada is Dead" in what to Purchase threads

Just now, Drasnighta said:

Without advice from FFG, you have to accept the possibilty at the very least.

I'm not saying it's not possible. I just think it extremely unlikely.

Resolve Damage: The attacker can resolve one of its critical effects. Then the attacker determines the total damage amount. Then the defending squadron or hull zone suffers that total damage, one point at a time.

TFA isn't even triggered until after APT has resolved... how could it possibly apply?

1 minute ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

I wouldn't say it is a different mechanism @Ardaedhel . Crits can be damage and are part of the damage step right?

But it is. Critical effect can make you suffer damage (ACM is an example), however APT critical effect doesn't make you suffer damage. It makes something different - sends a faceup damage card. So aanything that prevents/redirects damage and is based on "suffer damage" is not applicable to APT damage.

Otherwise Bright Hope would just laugh at APT.

1 minute ago, Drasnighta said:

it pisses me off more than people who say "Armada is Dead" in what to Purchase threads

I missed breakfast so I'm grouchy this morning.

Just now, Ardaedhel said:

TFA isn't even triggered until after APT has resolved... how could it possibly apply?

What do you mean? Doesn't the defender just say "I've taken the damage from your APT [a face up] so i'm exhausting TFA."

1 minute ago, Ardaedhel said:

TFA isn't even triggered until after APT has resolved... how could it possibly apply?

Only because you've made an assumption about suffering damage there that I've kept open.

In that Suffering Damage might be resolving damage, ergo, the resolve damage step, which starts before a crit is chosen.

1 minute ago, Ardaedhel said:

I missed breakfast so I'm grouchy this morning.

As long as you know I still BroLove you, man

I'm really cool with any outcome on this.

But...

@Drasnighta you're gonna have to rule for the Vassal tourney

Just now, Drasnighta said:

Only because you've made an assumption about suffering damage there that I've kept open.

In that Suffering Damage might be resolving damage, ergo, the resolve damage step, which starts before a crit is chosen.

What makes you think that "deal 1 face up damage card" = "suffer damage"?

It's exactly the same argument as "spend brace token" = "decrease damage by half". Spending the token normally produces the effect of decreasing damage by half, just like suffering damage normally produces the effect of dealing damage cards, but they are not the same thing.

I think

3 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Only because you've made an assumption about suffering damage there that I've kept open.

In that Suffering Damage might be resolving damage, ergo, the resolve damage step, which starts before a crit is chosen.

I think we're overcomplicating this. Suffering Damage is any game effect that explicitly tells to suffer damage and nothing else.

Just now, Ardaedhel said:

What makes you think that "deal 1 face up damage card" = "suffer damage"?

Would the standard Crit effect be okay for TFA?

4 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

In that Suffering Damage might be resolving damage, ergo, the resolve damage step, which starts before a crit is chosen.

Suffering damage is defined right there in my quote, though, and the timing defined:

Resolve Damage: The attacker can resolve one of its critical effects. Then the attacker determines the total damage amount.

Then the defending squadron or hull zone suffers that total damage, one point at a time.

I feel like I'm missing something in your point here, because this looks like you're not reading the passage thoroughly, which is obviously not the case...

I just don't see it in my small little mind how the APT face up card isn't damage .

1 minute ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

Would the standard Crit effect be okay for TFA?

TFA won't cancel the standard crit. However it can make the ship to receive 0 damage cards and therefore standard crit would do nothing.

Just now, CaribbeanNinja said:

I just don't see it in my small little mind how the APT face up card isn't damage .

My position is quite simply this:

Does APT say "suffer damage"? No.

Therefore, you are not "suffering damage."

I could be wrong. But that's how I see it.

2 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

Suffering damage is defined right there in my quote, though, and the timing defined:

I feel like I'm missing something in your point here, because this looks like you're not reading the passage thoroughly, which is obviously not the case...

No, I agree with you.

I'm having a really *** time at the moment, and you'll get a PM explaining why, so no, I'm not reading correctly... Happens to all of us, after all...

APT shouldn't be able to be kicked.

But still kick the Default Crit, or even a portion of the XX9 Crit... and if you're working under the assunption you can kick multiple points of damage through multiple TFA cards, you can kick BOTH Damage Cards from XX9 to other ships to be face up.

With the Default, Just make sure they're the first points of damage that are kicked, and you hit a zone on the target with no shields, and THAT ship will take the face up for you....

Even if you pour the rest of the damage onto your own unshielded zone, you won't take a faceup there.

1 minute ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

I just don't see it in my small little mind how the APT face up card isn't damage .

It is damage . However this damage was not acquired through suffer damage process, but by an alternate means. Another alternate way to get damage is to bump another ship during navigation phase. This damage also can't be mitigated by TFA.

Just now, Ardaedhel said:

My position is quite simply this:

Does APT say "suffer damage"? No.

Therefore, you are not "suffering damage."

I could be wrong. But that's how I see it.

I know it is really dumb.

But I just keep seeing that it's part of the "Resolve Damage " step...

2 minutes ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

Would the standard Crit effect be okay for TFA?

I think that this is a much more interesting question, and I'll say up front that I haven't thought through it all the way.

The reason I think it's interesting is that TFA specifically says that the second ship is being dealt that damage. So, if that damage was the first point, which would result in a faceup card... is that faceup dealt to the second ship?

I dunno and I have work to do so I can't dig all the way through it right now.

2 hours ago, PT106 said:

It is damage . However this damage was not acquired through suffer damage process, but by an alternate means. Another alternate way to get damage is to bump another ship during navigation phase. This damage also can't be mitigated by TFA.

I agree.

Interestingly, based on the way they're worded, I think that asteroids cannot be TFA'd, but debris fields can. Assuming that the way I understand this interaction is accurate.

Just kidding, "suffer damage from an attack ." RTFM, Ard.