1 hour ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

The thing is, the game is about the Galactic Civil War. About the control of the Galaxy and the overthrow of a government. Small time raiders and pirate distractions have no place.

It's about big space battles, everything else is changeable. Heck, we have rebel vs rebel and imp vs imp battles, so I'm not sure what's going on!

9 minutes ago, mazz0 said:

It's about big space battles, everything else is changeable. Heck, we have rebel vs rebel and imp vs imp battles, so I'm not sure what's going on!

Those are in tournaments. I meant as a theme. Scum factions did not involve themselves in mass warfare or large scale battles during this period.

*Delete*

8 minutes ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

Those are in tournaments. I meant as a theme. Scum factions did not involve themselves in mass warfare or large scale battles during this period.

Pssstt......Tyber Zann would like a word with you....

5 minutes ago, Zeoinx said:

Pssstt......Tyber Zann would like a word with you....

I had forgotten about him. . .

He falls into a third group then, as he is neither scum, nor system-states. His GOAL was revenge on the Empire. So he raised a fleet for that purpose.

He was essentially like the Rebel Alliance with a much less noble cause. He could work then. But as many people haven't heard about him, it'd be odd. That's a minor point though, I think.

Please no scum FFG, please.

Give us the Clone Wars. Battlefront II is doing it. Please.

Just now, Battlefleet 01 Studios said:

Please no scum FFG, please.

Give us the Clone Wars. Battlefront II is doing it. Please.

Why not BOTH!

Triple Faction Venators! VENATORS FOR EVERYONE! YOU GET A VET! YOU GET A VET! EVERYONE GETS A VET......

13 minutes ago, Zeoinx said:

Pssstt......Tyber Zann would like a word with you....

Yes... we all need more Gary Stus... Tyber Zann is a very good argument to make for invalidating the old canon.

1 minute ago, Knightcrawler said:

Yes... we all need more Gary Stus... Tyber Zann is a very good argument to make for invalidating the old canon.

Go away, we already have a Nightcrawler.... we dont need a medieval germ ridden version too!

27 minutes ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

Those are in tournaments. I meant as a theme. Scum factions did not involve themselves in mass warfare or large scale battles during this period.

Well, that might be your theme, but it doesn't have to be the theme for the whole game.

I agree that, on the whole, waging war against the Empire or Alliance wouldn't make sense for most criminal organisations, but that's not to say a) it never happened, and b) they never waged war amongst themselves. There could easily be whole systems or clusters of systems on the edges of or beyond official Impirial control with fleets of a few destroyers which they might use against rivals trying to take over the system, or as a show of force to maintain their image and stop people resisting their influence even without fighting, or even as a (no doubt futile) defence should the Empire decide to re/claim control of the system. Armada battles are only a few ships anyway, so they wouldn't have to have Empire or even Alliance sized navies.

There are some Legends factions that would be fun: Ssi-Ruuk, Hapes, Chiss, etc. But they wouldn't make sense to dedicate an entire faction to, even if Legends was still viable.

5 minutes ago, mazz0 said:

Well, that might be your theme, but it doesn't have to be the theme for the whole game.

I agree that, on the whole, waging war against the Empire or Alliance wouldn't make sense for most criminal organisations, but that's not to say a) it never happened, and b) they never waged war amongst themselves. There could easily be whole systems or clusters of systems on the edges of or beyond official Impirial control with fleets of a few destroyers which they might use against rivals trying to take over the system, or as a show of force to maintain their image and stop people resisting their influence even without fighting, or even as a (no doubt futile) defence should the Empire decide to re/claim control of the system. Armada battles are only a few ships anyway, so they wouldn't have to have Empire or even Alliance sized navies.

From the Main Armada Page, bold for emphasis:

" Rebel and Imperial fleets fight for the fate of the galaxy in Star Wars ™: Armada, the two-player miniatures game of epic Star Wars space battles!

Massive Star Destroyers fly to battle against Rebel corvettes and frigates. Banks of turbolasers unleash torrential volleys of fire against squadrons of X-wings and TIEs . Engineering teams race to route additional power to failing shields. Laser blasts and explosions flare across the battlefield. Even a single ship can change the tide of battle.

In Star Wars : Armada, you assume the role of fleet admiral, serving with either the Imperial Navy or Rebel Alliance . It’s your job to issue the tactical commands that will decide the course of battle and, perhaps, the fate of the galaxy."

The theme isn't mine, it's the game's. It does all but explicitly state that the theme of the game is Imp v. Reb, and that the focus is on combat that decides the fate of the galaxy, rather than on fringe systems that are irrelevant to all but those who live in them.

Scum v Scum certainly happened, but it's entirely irrelevant to the main conflict, and thus an odd reason to include scum as a faction.

7 minutes ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

From the Main Armada Page, bold for emphasis:

" Rebel and Imperial fleets fight for the fate of the galaxy in Star Wars ™: Armada, the two-player miniatures game of epic Star Wars space battles!

Massive Star Destroyers fly to battle against Rebel corvettes and frigates. Banks of turbolasers unleash torrential volleys of fire against squadrons of X-wings and TIEs . Engineering teams race to route additional power to failing shields. Laser blasts and explosions flare across the battlefield. Even a single ship can change the tide of battle.

In Star Wars : Armada, you assume the role of fleet admiral, serving with either the Imperial Navy or Rebel Alliance . It’s your job to issue the tactical commands that will decide the course of battle and, perhaps, the fate of the galaxy."

The theme isn't mine, it's the game's. It does all but explicitly state that the theme of the game is Imp v. Reb, and that the focus is on combat that decides the fate of the galaxy, rather than on fringe systems that are irrelevant to all but those who live in them.

Scum v Scum certainly happened, but it's entirely irrelevant to the main conflict, and thus an odd reason to include scum as a faction.

Counterpoint:

Control the most advanced starfighters and outstanding pilots in the galaxy! In X-Wing Miniatures Game , you take the role of squad leader and command a group of merciless Imperial or daring Rebel pilots in furious ship-to-ship space combat.

Featuring stunningly detailed and painted miniatures, X-Wing recreates exciting Star Wars space battles from small engagements of only a couple of craft to large conflicts where multiple squadrons clash. Select and equip your ships, pick your crew, plan your attack, and complete your mission.

And yet, X-Wing has Scum.

24 minutes ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

I had forgotten about him. . .

He falls into a third group then, as he is neither scum, nor system-states. His GOAL was revenge on the Empire. So he raised a fleet for that purpose.

He was essentially like the Rebel Alliance with a much less noble cause. He could work then. But as many people haven't heard about him, it'd be odd. That's a minor point though, I think.

I'm not stoked about getting a third faction if it happens. I'm not looking for it, didn't need it for x-wing, whatever...but to say there are no possibilities is a little off.

Sure, various criminal organizations didn't rival the Empire, or even the Rebellion, but they had ships, fleets, and even armadas. Heck, even the Rebellion didn't have a total fleet to rival that of the Empire, but it doesn't matter for Armada because it's not an entire fleet against an entire fleet. It's a small armada of forces, a detachment of their available ships.

To say that Zann, the Hutt Cartel, the Pykes or any other number of criminal consortiums couldn't throw together a respectable 500+ point fleet is just wrong. These organizations certainly had reason to ally themselves from time to time against greater foes also. You could have a scum faction that includes elements of all of them that could be used effectively.

Again, I'm not in favor of it, but it's possible.

I wouldn't be surprised to see them actually move into the new trilogy at this point. You have Ep 7, and Ep8 is coming up shortly. You could easily throw together a couple waves right there.

Why not waves of existing ships? It wouldn't take more than 3 waves to cover The Clone Wars era.

3 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Counterpoint:

Control the most advanced starfighters and outstanding pilots in the galaxy! In X-Wing Miniatures Game , you take the role of squad leader and command a group of merciless Imperial or daring Rebel pilots in furious ship-to-ship space combat.

Featuring stunningly detailed and painted miniatures, X-Wing recreates exciting Star Wars space battles from small engagements of only a couple of craft to large conflicts where multiple squadrons clash. Select and equip your ships, pick your crew, plan your attack, and complete your mission.

And yet, X-Wing has Scum.

Thank you for pointing that out.

I am back, therefore, to saying that for most 'scum' groups, open warfare doesn't make sense.

3 minutes ago, kmanweiss said:

I'm not stoked about getting a third faction if it happens. I'm not looking for it, didn't need it for x-wing, whatever...but to say there are no possibilities is a little off.

Sure, various criminal organizations didn't rival the Empire, or even the Rebellion, but they had ships, fleets, and even armadas. Heck, even the Rebellion didn't have a total fleet to rival that of the Empire, but it doesn't matter for Armada because it's not an entire fleet against an entire fleet. It's a small armada of forces, a detachment of their available ships.

To say that Zann, the Hutt Cartel, the Pykes or any other number of criminal consortiums couldn't throw together a respectable 500+ point fleet is just wrong. These organizations certainly had reason to ally themselves from time to time against greater foes also. You could have a scum faction that includes elements of all of them that could be used effectively.

Again, I'm not in favor of it, but it's possible.

I wouldn't be surprised to see them actually move into the new trilogy at this point. You have Ep 7, and Ep8 is coming up shortly. You could easily throw together a couple waves right there.

I'm not saying that they haven't the resources. I'm saying that of those who can, most don't want or need to, as it's not economically profitable, and of those who do, it'd be a one-off thing, most of the time. No scum faction is going to wage a war of many years against either the rebellion or the Empire. It'd be 1 battle, or maybe 2. Not enough to warrant a faction, as it's barely worth mentioning in the grand scheme of the the GCW.

It just doesn't make sense. It's stupid to waste your money in a war against a well established, dedicated military when your business depends on you having ships and crew to move contraband across the galaxy and robbing unsuspecting merchantmen and cruise liners, all for the accumulation of more money .

2 minutes ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

Thank you for pointing that out.

(...)

It just doesn't make sense. It's stupid to waste your money in a war against a well established, dedicated military when your business depends on you having ships and crew to move contraband across the galaxy and robbing unsuspecting merchantmen and cruise liners, all for the accumulation of more money .

1) I hated doing it. I don't want a Privateer function or a scum faction... I'd rather have the two sides remain as dichotomous as possible, and explore design spaces within each side so you can have multiple different fleet archtypes within a single faction...

2) ... Until such time as you can effectively overpower, erase, and/or bribe away the dedicated military for the sole purpose of accumulating all of the money, not just more of it.

I don't really go for either, but a scum faction has symetry with XW and if pushed to choose one, I would choose a Scum faction over Prequel/Clone Wars. Give me more civil war or sequel ships any day. Regardless, as long as the next wave includes the MC-75, I don't care.

Sorry, but I gotta say Im confused.

No one doubts the rebel alliance has access to dozens and dozens of warships, and is able to make a rough stand against the empire. And *that* is based, as noted by the 3rd faction detractors, as charity.

Exactly where do these ships come from? Planetary governments, economic guilds and merchant clans, and affluent gentry with their own personal flotillas. In a galaxy full of pirates, full or smugglers, and full of death star destroying extremists you dont think theres room for local system navies etc? That they wouldnt have a need?

I mean, would you rather have a small flight of fighters to protect your GR75s taking materials to market through hostile territory or would you prefer to have them comfortably backed up by something like the MC30, or 75? Could your head warship not also double as a base for those fighters, in orbit, improving response time against raiders if you live on the outer rim? Given that a system frequently has multiple inhabitable planets, is it cheaper to build and maintain half a dozen small base ships and their fighter compliments or have round the clock fighter jocks waiting to respond for each of your five planets and fourteen moons?

Gods, what if youre one of the many governments that rules over several systems under the parliamentary system? Now you have perhaps 40, or even 50 large space rocks filled with people paying taxes.....

Theres a distinct need for larger cartels and any real planet to have a warship or ten. If nothing else the story demands that there is, or else where would the rebels 'steal' all their ships?

2 minutes ago, Grey Mage said:

(...) or else where would the rebels 'steal' all their ships?

In the EU, 90% of those answers was from the Empire .

4 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

In the EU, 90% of those answers was from the Empire .

So wheres my Imperial Nebulon B?

In the EU there were random fleets being brought out from almost any weird pile of space rocks and pressed into service at a moments notice too.

1 minute ago, Grey Mage said:

So wheres my Imperial Nebulon B?

In the EU their were random fleets being brought out from almost any weird pile of space rocks and pressed into service at a moments notice too.

They Stole Them All .

Just like the X-Wings.

All Stolen. Down to the Plans. So the Imperials passed on the contract and decided to build more Raiders and Gladiators instead.

Lore Problem Solved .



Man, its probably a good thing I don't work for the LFL story group.

Haha. They probably stole every single system navy in the galaxy and most of the merchant fleets besides.

Its also nicely wrapped up now.

4 hours ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

I made a distinction - scum are those who do not own planets. People who belong to this category are Talon Karrde, Booster Terrik, etc. For them, they may have the resources to own warships, but not the need.

...

But I agree, to each his own in these cases - perhaps your definition of a competent threat, or 'scum' varies from mine. I can but explain my position.

Okay, but just so we're clear, your reasoning is circular. To paraphrase: "Scum can't have capital ships, because my definition of Scum is: those who don't own capital ships."

Booster Terrik is, of course, a horrible example, since he had a big bright red formerly-Imperial Star Destroyer.

But, with that, I think we should just agree to disagree.

4 hours ago, Lobokai said:

I too have no desire for Scum. They're pants on head dumb in X-Wing (wee! a faction that can do almost everything Rebels or Imperials can, but better, and generates ridiculous free tokens while ignoring most game effects... and uses models that many casual fans would not recognize as Star Wars).

Regarding X-Wing, in my community it felt like they breathed some new life into X-Wing, and a lot of people eagerly embraced them. So, the idea that people won't like them because they don't know them is not borne out by either my anecdotal observations, or by how many people bring Scum to tournaments. In the List Juggler tournament data, the Rebels have mostly been the dominant faction. Scum rode pretty high in the summer of 2016, in terms of results because of the U-boats, and early this year, but they've been losing a lot of ground to the Rebels in the past few months.

In all, the data does not seem to strongly support your observations. You are, of course, welcome to not like them for personal reasons.

20 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

They Stole Them All .

Just like the X-Wings.

All Stolen. Down to the Plans. So the Imperials passed on the contract and decided to build more Raiders and Gladiators instead.

Hm...

I think you are actually solving the previous points.

Armada already has a Scum faction.

2 minutes ago, Mikael Hasselstein said:

Armada already has a Scum faction.

It has been a while since you referred to me as Rebel Scum.

::sigh:: I miss the old days, Mikael.