As I continue gold fish bowling proxy decks (in lieu of having actual cards or getting to any of the big pre-release events) I suddenly realised the horrific news that Scorpion is the most fun deck to play (currently for me) and that it does the things i want to do with my Crane deck quicker and more efficiently. When my Crane plays the Scorpion it 'can' win but it feels like playing through treacle.

I may be wrong but I think it is because a lot of the Scorpion cards have printed actions which assist in battle (allowing less cards to be drawn) whereas a lot of the Crane actions are more to do with pumping force through honouring to just counter any opposing actions. A lot of the time the Crane force pump means it can stand toe to toe with most military clans but against a clan who dont care about dishonouring and can prevent the honouring they find it very difficult to do any meaningfull damage or force swings.

This makes me sad

Scorpion is very fun to play indeed but have near no comparaison to crane... one point in common is that there have lot of courtier peeps (which is fluf) but they do not play by the same force and weakness...

Crane value the dominance of POL conflicts at all cost (often only attacking with one peep in MIL just to check...) and the need to honor themselves each one of them to become an impressive stated peep. They have a try possible at dishonoring opponent's family able to achieve dishonor victory. They tend to bid very low and to compensate with lot of draw...

Scorpion value powerful tricks (often use defensively to totally repel attacks) at an high cost and a more versatile approach of stats. they tend to have very low force decks relying more on powerful confclit cards to make the job. They do not tend to play with honor or dishonor victories and have bonus to bid very high.

oh yes they might have a miror regarding the need to dishonor (for scorpion) or honor (for crane). this is another point in "common" (in fact totally opposite).

But this is not the same clan totally, not the same gameplay... But if you prefer playing scorpion, go for it... Clans seems to have reverted back to RPG flavor with crane being totally crane and scorpion not being the dishonor win machine is often was... this fine to me but ask for long time players to adapt...

Whatever scorpion is so fun and tricky to play... but beware this ask for lot of experience to climb some steps in learning skills... Crane tend to be a little easier to learn...

I think the Crane are a reasonably tricky deck. Doji Challenger, Doji Gift Giver and Kakita Kaezin are all tricky characters for throwing off your opponents battle math. You have lots of courtiers so For Shame and Outwit fit pretty easy. Assassination should be easy to use since you are an honorable clan (but not necessarily trying to win by honoring out). That said the Crane in core seem to be more about negating your opponents tricks. They have a real "everyone needs to play by the rules" theme in core, which is fitting thematically. It's just probably not your play style, which sucks for you if you are a big Crane clan fan. It's an LCG so more types of play will be fleshed out as the card pool grows.

I am perfectly happy with Crane versus everyone else except Scorpion..though Phoenix and Unicorn can cause 'irritations'. I found quite early on that *I* find it difficult honouring out so my primary win condition was province destruction helped by forcing my opponents honour to drop (duels, card draw etc). I quite agree that against most clans the Crane have plenty of 'stop what you are doing while my political attacks in return are huge'. With Scorpion that doesn't work.

I am currently expanding my play testing into seeing how Scorpion is against the other clans (naturally i have played a huge amount more with the Crane deck). It might also be limited games for that clan which is influencing things.

What I found especially amusing was that I had an open mind to the clans on the re-start I was always a Crane (and a Crane Harrier lover especially so movement tricks and not quite so squeeky clean) but was happy to look at Crab, Unicorn and Phoenix as potential alternates. Scorpion did not even get a look in so it is strange that they (currently) feel like a perfectly fitting glove.

Crab did not match my play style at all but I like the clans 'attitudes', Phoenix is too tricky for me and to reliant on strange combos to win ( imho for me ). Unicorn has lots of clever tricks but seemed to stutter against many clans.

This is all as I see it which is natrually quite possibly totally incorrect and not in any way intended to define how others play the relevant clans...

I totally understand. I love Crab, but I've actually been having a pretty hard time winning with them. Dragon and Lion have clicked much easier for me. I liked Crab's sacrifice theme, but the holding theme and defense theme have been harder for me to capitalize on right now. I'm gonna keep trying, but right now I feel much less confident bringing a Crab deck to a tournament. So I totally sympathize.

it's pretty typical for crane v scorpion to be a mess though. if you're a longer time player you should expect as much.

and it makes plenty of sense. scorpion is sort of like the mirror of crane.

maybe you played a specific sort of crane and that's not viable as a theme quite yeah due to a limited card pool. right now all the clans are just kind of 'best hits' of their styles. you can't make a specific style deck i don't think.

6 hours ago, Matrim said:

I may be wrong but I think it is because a lot of the Scorpion cards have printed actions which assist in battle (allowing less cards to be drawn) whereas a lot of the Crane actions are more to do with pumping force through honouring to just counter any opposing actions.

Really? Out of 15 personalities from the core, there are only Bayushi Shoju, Bayushi Yunako and Sinister Soshi that actually helps win conflicts. Crane has Asahina Artisan (+3POL), Cautious Scout (Blank the province? That is BIG!), Doji Gift Giver (Bow), Guest of Honor (No events during conflicts) and Kakita Kaezin (Mass send home) are all directly helpful in winning conflicts. I am genuinely interested as to how you came up with this conclusion. They have a few control elements to make their opponents less effective during battle (their dishonor elements and Fiery Madness) and I Can Swim but printed actions? Seriously?

'Seriously' - indeed. The fact your mileage differs does not invalidate my own opinion. That is what an opinion is and other peoples naturally may differ.

2 hours ago, Matrim said:

'Seriously' - indeed. The fact your mileage differs does not invalidate my own opinion. That is what an opinion is and other peoples naturally may differ.

You made a statement that Scorpion has "a lot of (the Scorpion cards have) printed actions which assist in battle." I wanted to know if you are comparing them to another clan coz I listed cards from Crane that assists in battle, and Scorpion clearly have less.

Are you talking about "assist in battle" as the opinion you say that varies? What cards from Scorpion do you consider "have printed actions that assist in battle"?

Assist in battle is relative. As an example a cards that switches military/political is more militarily useful than a card that dishonours a card with 0 glory. A card that allows a province to be blanked 'if they attack on their own' might be useful as a scout but is still less useful than a card which takes a blanket -2,-2 in any conflict of any card.

You seem to be having some difficulty with an opinion. Don't sweat over it I'm not.

14 hours ago, Matrim said:

I am perfectly happy with Crane versus everyone else except Scorpion..though Phoenix and Unicorn can cause 'irritations'. I found quite early on that *I* find it difficult honouring out so my primary win condition was province destruction helped by forcing my opponents honour to drop (duels, card draw etc). I quite agree that against most clans the Crane have plenty of 'stop what you are doing while my political attacks in return are huge'. With Scorpion that doesn't work.

I am currently expanding my play testing into seeing how Scorpion is against the other clans (naturally i have played a huge amount more with the Crane deck). It might also be limited games for that clan which is influencing things.

What I found especially amusing was that I had an open mind to the clans on the re-start I was always a Crane (and a Crane Harrier lover especially so movement tricks and not quite so squeeky clean) but was happy to look at Crab, Unicorn and Phoenix as potential alternates. Scorpion did not even get a look in so it is strange that they (currently) feel like a perfectly fitting glove.

Crab did not match my play style at all but I like the clans 'attitudes', Phoenix is too tricky for me and to reliant on strange combos to win ( imho for me ). Unicorn has lots of clever tricks but seemed to stutter against many clans.

This is all as I see it which is natrually quite possibly totally incorrect and not in any way intended to define how others play the relevant clans...

Haven't had a chance to proxy, but from the card pool, I couldn't agree more...Scorpion looks very fun to play. I want to run and rep Dragon at tournaments as they have always been my favorite clan, but Scorpion is most likely to be the clan I'll play in casual when I want to play something different.

Never cared for Scorpion in Old5R, usually ran LSD(lion speed deck) or Crane honor when I wanted a change. Just something about the new iteration of Scorpion that's drawing me in.

11 hours ago, Matrim said:

Assist in battle is relative. As an example a cards that switches military/political is more militarily useful than a card that dishonours a card with 0 glory. A card that allows a province to be blanked 'if they attack on their own' might be useful as a scout but is still less useful than a card which takes a blanket -2,-2 in any conflict of any card.

You seem to be having some difficulty with an opinion. Don't sweat over it I'm not.

See here's the thing, you seem to have a problem with "force pumps" though (as shown from your disdain with Crane actions just force pumping to counter opponent actions) when essentially the printed actions you're talking about in Scorpion are all, at their core, just force pumps. Switching MIL with POL just means you're choosing a lower (or higher if your own character) stat over the other. Niche cases of dash stats for some characters aside, you're just basically making your value higher than your opponent.

Tldr: You're praising Scorpion's printed actions when they, in essence, are the same as Crane's force pumps thru honor. It's like saying you prefer winning than not losing in L5R.

You said you may be wrong, but disregard people when they try to point that. Funny.

that's the thing about opinions they are not black or white , right or wrong. If i feel something is someway there is no one in the world who can say 'no you don't feel that way because I know better' which is basically your entire point.

I get you don't get that, some people don't so lets just agree to disagree.

11 minutes ago, Matrim said:

that's the thing about opinions they are not black or white , right or wrong. If i feel something is someway there is no one in the world who can say 'no you don't feel that way because I know better' which is basically your entire point.

I'm not attacking how you feel, but your assumptions for feeling that way. And Yes, opinions can be right or wrong, its a widely held misconception. But like you said, agree to disagree.