On 2017-09-18 at 8:09 PM, Jeff Wilder said:

I have been very clear about this.

Bombing on K-wings is going to be dead forever. (It's dead now, but let's nerf it so it stays dead! Yeah!) Except, of course, it will have zero effect on Miranda.

You do realize that some players are using Miranda with no action bombs (some with just bomblets) and having really good results? In the most popular build at the moment she only has 1 action bomb out of the 3 she carries...

You also forget that she can be a pretty good missile/torp launcher with that extra dice on attack. 5 dices concussion missiles (or harpoon soon) can be quite nasty. If she skips advanced SLAM, she could replace it with Guidance chip. Or vectoriel thrusters for extra positioning options. She is far from dead meat without SLAM/bombing.

Initialy SLAM was supposed to make you sacrifice an attack. With the way bombs evolved and the release of Sabine, SLAM bombing became much better than a regular attack.

The one thing i dont understand is why they made Nym what he his. After many matches with and against ¸him, im now convinced that hes actually better at bombing than a Kwing. They seem to be silling to correct SLAM/bomb but they created something worst almost at the same time...

Do we have a full top 16/32 lists from Canadian Nationals anywhere?

Edit: Ignore me, for some reason ListJuggler wasn't loading properly for me...

On 2017-09-21 at 6:17 AM, MrAndersson said:

So 1 imperial list in top 16 at UK nationals, none in polish.

On 2017-09-21 at 6:38 AM, GreenDragoon said:

Which doesn‘t mean anything by itself.

Yeah but when you add up all major tournaments since the FAQ release and the same results keep repeating again and again, it is quite meaningful... I cant believe some player are still trying to deny the major drop they took and the bad position they are in at the moment.

10 minutes ago, Thormind said:

Yeah but when you add up all major tournaments since the FAQ release and the same results keep repeating again and again, it is quite meaningful... I cant believe some player are still trying to deny the major drop they took and the bad position they are in at the moment.

Agreed, if I have time I would like to compare the tournament results for Imperials since FAQ to the tournament results for Rebels from Wave 8 to Deadeye nerf.

3 minutes ago, Thormind said:

Yeah but when you add up all major tournaments since the FAQ release and the same results keep repeating again and again, it is quite meaningful... I cant believe some player are still trying to deny the major drop they took and the bad position they are in at the moment.

Yep. Pretty much cut and dry.

I think Imperials sit in a very similar position to Rebels during the Palpatine/Jumpmaster meta (Probably worse, actually). The archetype of Fat Turret + Bombing Ace (Which both Rebels and Scum can field atm) is very hard for aces and swarms to overcome. You can specialize your list to have a fighting chance (Ion Pulse Missiles on Quickdraw or Vader even the field vs Nym/Miranda), but you lose to any other number of lists that are popular currently.

2 minutes ago, Tbetts94 said:

Agreed, if I have time I would like to compare the tournament results for Imperials since FAQ to the tournament results for Rebels from Wave 8 to Deadeye nerf.

I've done a little bit of looking into that. They are VERY similar. About the only difference is that at top levels Rebels still won a few events- there was still a core of decent lists that could make it if they won the right matchups.

32 minutes ago, Thormind said:

Yeah but when you add up all major tournaments since the FAQ release and the same results keep repeating again and again, it is quite meaningful... I can't believe some player are still trying to deny the major drop the Empire took and the bad position Imperials are in at the moment.

This.

Sadly, this.

1 hour ago, Tbetts94 said:

Agreed, if I have time I would like to compare the tournament results for Imperials since FAQ to the tournament results for Rebels from Wave 8 to Deadeye nerf.

Rebels were never out of the game like the imperials are at the moment. They still had builds in the top 10... http://meta-wing.com/ship_combos?ranking_start=2016-03-17&ranking_end=2016-10-17&large_tournament_multiplier=true&widespread_use_multiplier=true&use_ranking_data=all&tournament_type=&

1 minute ago, Thormind said:

Rebels were never out of the game like the imperials are at the moment. They still had builds in the top 10...

They were close. There was a point where Dash/Lothal was really the only viable Rebel squad, and even then it was tier 2.

The worst of the anti-Rebel imbalance in 2016 was about as bad as the anti-Imperial balance today. Two wrongs don't make a right, though.

16 minutes ago, Thormind said:

Rebels were never out of the game like the imperials are at the moment. They still had builds in the top 10... http://meta-wing.com/ship_combos?ranking_start=2016-03-17&ranking_end=2016-10-17&large_tournament_multiplier=true&widespread_use_multiplier=true&use_ranking_data=all&tournament_type=&

Just to prove the point - the Dash/VCX squad only made Top 10 there because of the number of desperate rebel players using it. It's percentile performance was WAY down on the other squads around it in the Top 10.

Dash/Ghost was a lot like the RAC lists we see now - different enough from the faction's archetypes that it was somewhat viable, but it absolutely bled MoV and couldn't win large events.

1 hour ago, apoapsis said:

Dash/Ghost was a lot like the RAC lists we see now - different enough from the faction's archetypes that it was somewhat viable, but it absolutely bled MoV and couldn't win large events.

That is a very good comparison.

On 18.9.2017 at 5:41 AM, DR4CO said:

So we finally got our first non-Nym winners, and would you look at that? It's another Twin Fat Turret list and then a bloody Wolfpack. To quote a certain fictional clown, I'd laugh if it weren't so pathetic.

@SEApocalypse Fine, paraphrase (been a while since I've actually watched Return of the Joker. Should remedy that).

Here's the highlight of Canadian nats, if anyone missed the stream:

https://clips.twitch.tv/HelpfulSlickCamelCharlieBitMe

Watching that attempted straight face is my favorite thing ever

Ugh even at the top levels the mood is sour. Balance in this game is just polluting everything.

18 hours ago, Thormind said:

Yeah but when you add up all major tournaments since the FAQ release and the same results keep repeating again and again, it is quite meaningful... I cant believe some player are still trying to deny the major drop they took and the bad position they are in at the moment.

Which is not ‚by itself‘ anymore

4 hours ago, Favoritism Flight Games said:

Ugh even at the top levels the mood is sour. Balance in this game is just polluting everything.

Speak for yourself; Europe has a great community, filled with players who actively enjoy the game.

Maybe try being the change you want to see in the game?

1 minute ago, FTS Gecko said:

Speak for yourself; Europe has a great community, filled with players who actively enjoy the game.

Maybe try being the change you want to see in the game?

I had a great time at NOVA.... and so did everyone else I spoke to there. In the end, this game is as much about the community as it is about the ships.

3 minutes ago, Timathius said:

I had a great time at NOVA.... and so did everyone else I spoke to there. In the end, this game is as much about the community as it is about the ships.

Great to hear - I was wondering if there was some kind of continental divide as I've been to Yavin, the Euros and UK Nationals alongside a number of store events this year and pretty much everyone I encountered seemed to be having a great time, and the community plays a huge part in that.

If the same holds true for NOVA, other nationals and Worlds, then you have to wonder where this supposed "sour mood" actually stems from, because it was certainly nowhere to be seen in the events I've been to.

6 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

Great to hear - I was wondering if there was some kind of continental divide as I've been to Yavin, the Euros and UK Nationals alongside a number of store events this year and pretty much everyone I encountered seemed to be having a great time, and the community plays a huge part in that.

If the same holds true for NOVA, other nationals and Worlds, then you have to wonder where this supposed "sour mood" actually stems from, because it was certainly nowhere to be seen in the events I've been to.

It mostly stems from online in my experience. But it does have basis in events. This meta is rough and not for everyone, I don't think anyone can deny that. But it is a vocal minority on the forums and the reddit that then proceed to blame players for participating in that meta that then makes it look like the game is awful. I understand complaining about the meta. I cannot understand complaining about people who fly meta at tournaments.

I mean look through some of the threads on here, the netlisting one in particular. I would be willing to be all of the moneys that if we put every person in that thread into a room with X-wing ships and beer it would be a blast. It is just the medium enabling people to ignore other people's opinions and not see them as humans that is the problem. I used the word toxic in another thread a few days ago to describe some of what I am seeing here and was told that was ridiculous, but I actually think that kind of behavior is toxic. I have seen other communities rip each other apart because of online discussions attacking parts of the player base that went un-checked. I love this communty and the game, and I really don't want to see that happen here.

1 hour ago, Timathius said:

I mean look through some of the threads on here, the netlisting one in particular. I would be willing to be all of the moneys that if we put every person in that thread into a room with X-wing ships and beer it would be a blast. It is just the medium enabling people to ignore other people's opinions and not see them as humans that is the problem. I used the word toxic in another thread a few days ago to describe some of what I am seeing here and was told that was ridiculous, but I actually think that kind of behavior is toxic. I have seen other communities rip each other apart because of online discussions attacking parts of the player base that went un-checked. I love this communty and the game, and I really don't want to see that happen here.

Makes sense. There's a level of unpleasantness on the UK Facebook page as well, but it certainly doesn't translate to the atmosphere at actual events.

I had a blast at Nova and basically everyone else I saw was having a great time too. Even though the meta kind of sucks now this was the most fun I've had at a big tournament yet minus Krayt Cup. I am 99% sure that most of the "sour mood" is coming from casuals and non-tournament players. The people complaining the most and being the loudest probably didnt go to Nova.

1 hour ago, Timathius said:

It mostly stems from online in my experience. But it does have basis in events. This meta is rough and not for everyone, I don't think anyone can deny that. But it is a vocal minority on the forums and the reddit that then proceed to blame players for participating in that meta that then makes it look like the game is awful. I understand complaining about the meta. I cannot understand complaining about people who fly meta at tournaments.

I mean look through some of the threads on here, the netlisting one in particular. I would be willing to be all of the moneys that if we put every person in that thread into a room with X-wing ships and beer it would be a blast. It is just the medium enabling people to ignore other people's opinions and not see them as humans that is the problem. I used the word toxic in another thread a few days ago to describe some of what I am seeing here and was told that was ridiculous, but I actually think that kind of behavior is toxic. I have seen other communities rip each other apart because of online discussions attacking parts of the player base that went un-checked. I love this communty and the game, and I really don't want to see that happen here.

And toxic behavior is an actual scientific term
And highly contagious. Luckily it seems to be more contagious in online enviroments ;-)

Though online toxicity is certainly not limited to gaming, it spreading like a virus and for sure bleeding outside of the online world as well.

For reference: This video will make you angry, by CCP Grey, which goes a little in detail how part of this toxicity maintains itself.

And from GDC a talk about toxic players in riot's League of Legends. They still have not solved the problem by they actively working for years to influence people into less toxic behavior.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1017940/The-Science-Behind-Shaping-Player

20 hours ago, apoapsis said:

Dash/Ghost was a lot like the RAC lists we see now - different enough from the faction's archetypes that it was somewhat viable, but it absolutely bled MoV and couldn't win large events.

Agreed, except for the "absolutely bleeding MoV". I've played RAC + ace for a few months this year and the most common result was a win with half points lost on RAC, which is 30ish points. Even in this meta 100:0 wins are not uncommon if the matchup is decent and you play well. Kylo helps a lot there.

RAC lists' primary problem isn't MoV bleed in the matches you win. It's the matches you lose because fat turrets and TLTs are everywhere.